Palestinians - Victims? Or Enemies? (1 Viewer)

[Hatuey]

Well I've seen some of the kind words you people have for the palestinians but I'd like to know. Why?

Dont they deserve to live in the places where they were born as much as the hebrews that immigrated in mass and have nothing other then a religious connection to Israel do?

I've come to the realisation that a sick game has been played with the palestinian people. Nobody really cares about them. The Islamic extremists use them as a reason for constantly attacking the jews and the rest of the world blames them and sanctions them whenever these extremists attack. Truthfully I think it is almost pathetic that every side carries out it's agenda without caring about the effects it might have on these people.

Your thoughts.

 

[Kandahar]

Well I've seen some of the kind words you people have for the palestinians but I'd like to know. Why?

Dont they deserve to live in the places where they were born as much as the hebrews that immigrated in mass and have nothing other then a religious connection to Israel do?

Very few of the Palestinians were kicked out of Israel or anything like that. The average age is 18...several generations removed from the founding of Israel.

The Islamic extremists use them as a reason for constantly attacking the jews

This is true.

and the rest of the world blames them and sanctions them whenever these extremists attack.

The Palestinians are mostly sympathetic to these extremists. Their government is led by Hamas, so why shouldn't the government be held responsible when Hamas attacks Israel?

Truthfully I think it is almost pathetic that every side carries out it's agenda without caring about the effects it might have on these people.

And how would YOU solve this problem?

 

[Hatuey]

Very few of the Palestinians were kicked out of Israel or anything like that. The average age is 18...several generations removed from the founding of Israel.

I didnt say they were kicked. I said they were never given a choice they were just told.

This is true.

I tend to be right sometimes.

The Palestinians are mostly sympathetic to these extremists.

Proof?

Their government is led by Hamas, so why shouldn't the government be held responsible when Hamas attacks Israel?

Their goverment is led by extremists yes we agreed on that but the point I'm trying to make is - it is Hamas that makes these choices. Not the average palestinian selling fruits at a market. And yet it is he who gets the punishment.

And how would YOU solve this problem?

2 States? With Jerusalem under the control of the U.N. or U.S.? Works out pretty well.

 

[Kandahar]

I didnt say they were kicked. I said they were never given a choice they were just told.

Never given a choice to do what? Live somewhere that they haven't had any ties to for several generations? My great-grandfather emigrated from Germany to the United States, yet I certainly wouldn't expect the German government to instantly grant me citizenship and welcome me with open arms.

Proof?

They elected Hamas.

Also, take a look at this: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=185

It's a couple years out of date, but it shows that at the time, the "world leader" that the Palestinians had the most confidence in was Osama Bin Laden (71%).

Their goverment is led by extremists yes we agreed on that but the point I'm trying to make is - it is Hamas that makes these choices. Not the average palestinian selling fruits at a market. And yet it is he who gets the punishment.

Why should we continue to give aid money to a government working to undermine our allies and support terrorism?

2 States? With Jerusalem under the control of the U.N. or U.S.? Works out pretty well.

Yasser Arafat was essentially offered this deal in 2000 and instead launched an intifada. It's even less likely that the Palestinians would accept this deal now.

Besides, why should Israel give sovereignty to the Palestinians at this point in time, when it's obvious that they need a babysitter? As soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza, did the Gazans settle down? No, they launched rockets into Israel.

 

[Hatuey]

Never given a choice to do what? Live somewhere that they haven't had any ties to for several generations?

Except for the fact they were born there? Let's see some indian pull up to your house with papers saying his Great-Grandaddy owned the land your house sits on 120 years ago.

They elected Hamas.

42% Did. Hardly a majority.

Why should we continue to give aid money to a government working to undermine our allies and support terrorism?

The problem is not supporting the palestinian goverment it is supporting their people who are the ones in the middle of all this - I've explain this to you twice now. Stop it. We're going in circles.

Yasser Arafat was essentially offered this deal in 2000 and instead launched an intifada. It's even less likely that the Palestinians would accept this deal now.

Again. You're not litsening. Putting aside the people that claim to speak for them. Why do we rush to claim that all Palestinians want the annihilation of Israel? Why do we refuse to admit that maybe it is the palestinians as a people that have come with the shorter end of the stick.

Besides, why should Israel give sovereignty to the Palestinians at this point in time, when it's obvious that they need a babysitter? As soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza, did the Gazans settle down? No, they launched rockets into Israel.

The Gazans? Haven't heard that term before but alright. You're leaning away from the original topic.

 

[Kandahar]

Except for the fact they were born there? Let's see some indian pull up to your house with papers saying his Great-Grandaddy owned the land your house sits on 120 years ago.

OK, the Palestinians who were born in Israel and kicked out in 1948 can return if they want. The rest should stfu. Deal?

42% Did. Hardly a majority.

I edited my post above, check out the link. 71% had more confidence in Osama bin Laden than any other "world leader" in 2003.

Additionally, Palestinians rejected the idea that Israel and Palestine could coexist, 80% to 17%.

The problem is not supporting the palestinian goverment it is supporting their people who are the ones in the middle of all this - I've explain this to you twice now. Stop it. We're going in circles.

Any foreign aid money flows through the Palestinian Authority, not into the hands of the people. I assume that shutting off the aid money was what you were referring to?

If you're talking about private charities that directly assist the Palestinians, I'm all for that.

Again. You're not litsening. Putting aside the people that claim to speak for them. Why do we rush to claim that all Palestinians want the annihilation of Israel? Why do we refuse to admit that maybe it is the palestinians as a people that have come with the shorter end of the stick.

See the link in my previous post.

The Gazans? Haven't heard that term before but alright. You're leaning away from the original topic.

If you're suggesting that they should each have their own state, it's very much on-topic to point out that the Palestinians haven't been able to behave themselves in the past when they've had sovereignty.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Dont they deserve to live in the places where they were born as much as the Hebrews that immigrated in mass and have nothing other then a religious connection to Israel do?

Considering the fact that most posters here are Americans-- a nation of people who immigrated en masse and forcibly removed the prior occupants from this land-- I think you'll find very little sympathy on this point.

I've come to the realisation that a sick game has been played with the palestinian people. Nobody really cares about them.

I'm not sure why this comes as such a surprise to you. On an international level... noone really cares about anyone else, except as a function of strategic interests. It is the way this game is played, and to be perfectly honest... I don't think this is as much of a problem as most people seem to.

Explain to me, why should I care about any Palestinian that I have not personally met? Why should he give a damn about me or my life?

I didn't answer your poll because I think breaking it down into "victims" and "enemies" is too simple. They're foreigners, and like all foreigners, their moral value is based on relations between our people; they are not our enemies, but they are the enemies of our current allies in Israel.

If relations should break down between Israel and the United States... our relations might change. Nothing in this world is static.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The Palestinians are mostly sympathetic to these extremists.

With foreign occupiers on your land, forcing you to live as second-class citizens, wouldn't you be sympathetic to extremist organizations attempting to destroy them?

I know I certainly would be.

 

[Kandahar]

With foreign occupiers on your land, forcing you to live as second-class citizens, wouldn't you be sympathetic to extremist organizations attempting to destroy them?

No. Call me crazy, but I don't think strapping bombs to oneself and killing civilians in pizza parlors, who have nothing to do with the occupation, is the proper way to air your grievances.

The actions in the Gaza Strip prove that they care less about being occupied than they do about killing Jews. Israel completely withdrew, and Gaza still waged war on Israel.

 

[Hatuey]

No. Call me crazy, but I don't think strapping bombs to oneself and killing civilians in pizza parlors, who have nothing to do with the occupation, is the proper way to air your grievances.

Well neither is bombing innocent people from a plane but hey it's done.

The actions in the Gaza Strip prove that they care less about being occupied than they do about killing Jews. Israel completely withdrew, and Gaza still waged war on Israel

Proof? Where is you proof that Palestinians as a people want the annihilation of Israel? It's like saying "Black people prove they want to go back to Africa by wearing pendants of the continent around their necks".

At no point have you adressed my concern that we tend to label all palestinians as wanting the complete demise of the Jews.

Explain to me, why should I care about any Palestinian that I have not personally met? Why should he give a damn about me or my life?

I didn't answer your poll because I think breaking it down into "victims" and "enemies" is too simple. They're foreigners, and like all foreigners, their moral value is based on relations between our people; they are not our enemies, but they are the enemies of our current allies in Israel.

Thats basically the experiment I'm trying to conduct here. I'd like to know why we are so quick to say that "The Palestinians" as a people want nothing more then the complete destruction of Jews when most of us have never met a Palestinian or having even heard their viewpoint. Only that of the extremists.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

No. Call me crazy, but I don't think strapping bombs to oneself and killing civilians in pizza parlors, who have nothing to do with the occupation, is the proper way to air your grievances.

Those civilians are just as much "occupiers" as the soldiers. They're the ones living in homes built upon Palestinian land-- or, at least, what used to be Palestinian land.

Just because they've got soldiers standing in front of them doesn't mean they're not part of the occupation. It doesn't make them less responsible.

The actions in the Gaza Strip prove that they care less about being occupied than they do about killing Jews. Israel completely withdrew, and Gaza still waged war on Israel.

Gaza is only a small portion of the land that belonged to them. It's a reservation-- and not only were they put on a reservation, but the Israelis then went ahead and invaded the reservation, too. Withdrawing from that reservation later doesn't mean that they ought to be happy about being stuck on it.

 

[jfuh]

With foreign occupiers on your land, forcing you to live as second-class citizens, wouldn't you be sympathetic to extremist organizations attempting to destroy them?

I know I certainly would be.

Yes, to some extent. But when they strap bombs to themselves and then result in the foreign occupier to then drive tanks around my neighborhood - in otherwords only escalating the situation than absolutely not. I would not sympathize with them the least bit.

 

[Kandahar]

Those civilians are just as much "occupiers" as the soldiers. They're the ones living in homes built upon Palestinian land-- or, at least, what used to be Palestinian land.

Well it hasn't been for 60 years, and the average age in Palestine is 18. If you have an example of an old guy strapping a bomb to himself, maybe he has a good reason.

Just because they've got soldiers standing in front of them doesn't mean they're not part of the occupation. It doesn't make them less responsible.

So if you view civilians of Israel Proper as occupiers, then do you favor the "push Israel into the sea" approach favored by Hamas?

Gaza is only a small portion of the land that belonged to them. It's a reservation-- and not only were they put on a reservation, but the Israelis then went ahead and invaded the reservation, too. Withdrawing from that reservation later doesn't mean that they ought to be happy about being stuck on it.

They aren't getting land in Israel Proper back. That's a non-starter, as it well should be. Israel is a democracy; what do you think would happen if millions of Arabs (most of whom had never lived in Israel in their lives) were suddenly allowed to "return" as citizens? I can guess...

 

[Volker]

Never given a choice to do what? Live somewhere that they haven't had any ties to for several generations? My great-grandfather emigrated from Germany to the United States, yet I certainly wouldn't expect the German government to instantly grant me citizenship and welcome me with open arms.

This is how things work in Germany, I guess. There have been hundred thousands if not millions of German people from other countries coming here in the ninetees, from Russia there were more than 2,000,000 Germans coming every year for a few years and in Romania it looked like they could run short of Germans for a while.

If it's ok for them, it's ok for me.

 

[Gardener]

More Jewish people were kicked out of Arab lands than were Arabs displaced during the creation of Israel. If we are to talk about justifying murder based upon grievances, let's be fair and consistant, shall we? Otherwise, we are only engaging in one-sided propaganda.


I do not accept the specious rhetoric of those who support murder under the guise that what one group did to another in the past justifies one individual murdering another today. If this idiotic rationalization was applied consistantly, we would all be justified in murdering each other based upon our sense of group identity and our ability to manufacture grievances from the past.

 

[Volker]

More Jewish people were kicked out of Arab lands than were Arabs displaced during the creation of Israel.

This sounds like history revisionism to me.

If we are to talk about justifying murder based upon grievances, let's be fair and consistant, shall we?

We are not talking about justifying murder based upon grievances.

Otherwise, we are only engaging in one-sided propaganda.

Are you?

I do not accept the specious rhetoric of those who support murder under the guise that what one group did to another in the past justifies one individual murdering another today. If this idiotic rationalization was applied consistantly, we would all be justified in murdering each other based upon our sense of group identity and our ability to manufacture grievances from the past.

This poll is not about the past, it's about the present time, the way I understand it.

 

[Volker]

Correction

This is how things work in Germany, I guess. There have been hundred thousands if not millions of German people from other countries coming here in the ninetees, from Russia there were more than 200,000 Germans coming every year for a few years and in Romania it looked like they could run short of Germans for a while.

If it's ok for them, it's ok for me.

The correct number was 200,000, not 2,000,000.

 

[Gardener]

This sounds like history revisionism to me.

.

No, it's called history.

This is something of which you are either entirely ignorant and so are offering this statement because you re ignorant, or something of which you are familiar thus making you a liar.

Since you have displayed such a clear and consistant pattern of lying here, I will chalk it up to the latter.

 

[Topsez]

The nations of the ME were on the losing side of WWI & II. The victors claimed the spoils of the ME and proclaimed a state for Israel. There is plenty of deserts to go around and plenty of money to go around. There are tens of thousands of Korean workers in Saudi Arabia which is within commuting distance for Palestinians to be filthy rich doing the work the Koreans now do. Neither Saudi Arabia nor any ME country wants the displaced Palestinians as their citizens, but like I said there is no shortage of desert and no shortage of jobs… I would dare to say that there aren’t a dozen Palestinians living that were originally displaced and insist that they had no title to property since there was never a Palestine state as a nation to issue such title. If the title belonged to another ME state let that state provide comfort for the people of Palestine and negotiate compensation.

 

[Volker]

No, it's called history.

This is something of which you are either entirely ignorant and so are offering this statement because you re ignorant, or something of which you are familiar thus making you a liar.

Since you have displayed such a clear and consistant pattern of lying here, I will chalk it up to the latter.

I see, you resort to a personal attack because you can not sustain your assertion. Because you could never show me where I lied, this post actually tells something about your difficulties with the truth.

 

[Gardener]

I see, you resort to a personal attack because you can not sustain your assertion. Because you could never show me where I lied, this post actually tells something about your difficulties with the truth.

There is no personal attack involved in my telling the truth. Jewish refugees from Arab lands are an undeniable part of the historical record, and so the two options I listed are the only two possible for your statement. You are either ignorant or you are lying.

Now, If I actually wrote an opinion of you something to the effect that I consider you a putred piece of subhuman filth so far beneath contempt that your presense here as a blight upon this forum, and that I feel dirty even responding to such a stinking pile of pig feces such as yourself, then THAT would be an attack.

Calling a liar a liar is simplya statement of fact.

 

[Volker]

There is no personal attack involved in my telling the truth. Jewish refugees from Arab lands are an undeniable part of the historical record, and so the two options I listed are the only two possible for your statement. You are either ignorant or you are lying.

...

Calling a liar a liar is simplya statement of fact.

You are not able or not willing to sustain your assertion and you repeat a personal attack while denying that it is a personal attack.

 

[Gardener]

You are not able or not willing to sustain your assertion and you repeat a personal attack while denying that it is a personal attack.

You and your phony little games.

 

[Volker]

You and your phony little games.

What game is it? I doubted an assertion you made and wanted you to sustain it and I called a personal attack a personal attack.

 

[DeeJayH]

I voted victims

only because they are victims of their own culture and the fanatics they allow to live in their midst