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Palestinians of Jewish Origine

Mira

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In order not to hijack another thread, I have decided to post this documentary (in 2 parts) in a new thread.

I'd like to know what you all think about it. If it is credible, in my view the land conflict between Israelis and Palestinians become even more absurd than it already is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AenISgolLe0&feature=PlayList&p=0843EC216E5752D0&index=2"]YouTube- Palestinians of Jewish Origin part 1 of 2[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3gGinwyNYE&feature=related"]YouTube- palestinians of jewish origin part 2 of 2[/ame]
 
Thank you Mira.

I had heard of this before but this really does make it clear. Here are the bulk of the Jews who have been living in this area for 3,000 years.

It also reminded me that when I visited Israel in the 70's, I remember pointing out a soldier and asking why an arab was an Israeli soldier and being told he was a Jew but one who had remained all the time.

I am sorry no other person has comented on your films.
 
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In order not to hijack another thread, I have decided to post this documentary (in 2 parts) in a new thread.

I'd like to know what you all think about it. If it is credible, in my view the land conflict between Israelis and Palestinians become even more absurd than it already is.

YouTube- Palestinians of Jewish Origin part 1 of 2

YouTube- palestinians of jewish origin part 2 of 2

Very interesting video. thank you. Just makes the horros that are all to common more tragic
 
This is a very interesting documentary. Thank you Mira, for posting these videos.
 
Many of the nomadic Bedouin tribes in Jordan will plainly tell you that they are descendants of the Israelites.
 
Many of the nomadic Bedouin tribes in Jordan will plainly tell you that they are descendants of the Israelites.

I'm fascinated by all of this. Do you have any documents or books to recommend about the subject ?

I'd love to know more.
 
I'm fascinated by all of this. Do you have any documents or books to recommend about the subject ?

I'd love to know more.
Nothing like that Mira. A number of years ago as a student, I accompanied an Israeli archaeologist who was involved in a dig just south of the Dead Sea in Israel. To make a long story short, we visited a Bedouin tribe on the Jordanian side. Apparently, the archaeologist knew these people and they were all friends.

During the hospitality meal, the elder was speaking and the archaeologist was interpreting. I asked the Doctor if he correctly interpreted what the elder had said. He nodded in the affirmative. A Jordanian with us confirmed this, and said the tribal elder had said exactly what was translated. At the beginning, his tribe was an Israelite tribe. The Doctor told me that two other Bedouin tribes in the area also say the same thing.

:shrug:
 
I'm fascinated by all of this. Do you have any documents or books to recommend about the subject ?

I'd love to know more.

There's "Brother Shall not Lift Sword against Brother"
and "Hearing is Believing – The Roots and the Solution to the Eretz-Israel Problem" both by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai"]Tsvi Misinai[/ame]

While they exist, I doubt that they number anywhere near that guy's estimate, who knows?
 
There's "Brother Shall not Lift Sword against Brother"
and "Hearing is Believing – The Roots and the Solution to the Eretz-Israel Problem" both by Tsvi Misinai

While they exist, I doubt that they number anywhere near that guy's estimate, who knows?

Thank you !!!
I'm usually guilty of readng 2 books at the same time :doh now I'm running to check your suggestions.
 
Wow. So interesting. I had no idea. It does put the whole conflict in a different light. But like that woman said at the end, sometimes even brothers kill each other. If only this could help everyone understand how senseless that conflict is.
 
In another thread, two issues had relevance:

1. Whether there is a genetic relationship between Jews and Palestinians
2. Whether such a relationship can facilitate specific political solutions

In a video, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim, Professor of Experimental Hematology at the Hadassah University Hospital was quoted as mentioning a "family" relationship between Palestinians and Jews. She stated:

It's clear that we're all from the same family, but unfortunately families also have conflicts. It's not unusual for brothers to fight with each other, so I don't think this is what will bring the Redemption. Unfortunately I wish it would bring the Redemption.

In a 2001 co-authored journal article, Dr. Oppenheim discussed the genetic landscape of the Middle East. Some key excerpts:

Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chormosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool (Nebel et al. 2000). Of those Palestinian chormosomes, approximately one-third formed a group of very closely related haploytypes that were only rarely found in Jews. Altogether, the findings indicated a remarkable degree of genetic continuity in both Jews and Arabs, despite their long separation and the wide geographic dispersal of Jews...

The three Jewish communities had many additional haploytpes in common with Muslim Kurds... They shared more haplotypes and chromosomes with Muslim Kurds than with either Palestinians or Bedouin...

We propose that that Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000)... The peripheral position of the modal haplotypes, with few links in the network..., suggests that the Arab-specific chromosomes are a result of recent gene flow. Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633-640 A.D...


Source: Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim, "The Y Chomosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East," American Journal of Human Genetics, 2001, pp.1095-1112.

Key findings:

1. Jews and Palestinian Arabs share a large portion of Y chromosomes (early lineages derived from the area's Neolithic inhabitants).

2. Palestinian Arabs also have Y chromosomes of more recent origins arising from tribal migrations from Arabia.

3. Jews and Muslim Kurds have an even closer genetic relationship than Jews and Palestinian Arabs.

The second issue concerns whether the scientific findings by Dr. Oppenheim, among others, have any meaningful political relevance. They don't. Ethnic/group identity is a complex social construct, not a genetic one. Nation-states are one manifestation by which that ethnic/group identity can express itself. Nation-states are a function of a whole range of variables including ethnic/group identity, religion, language, culture, tradition, historic experience, etc.

Therefore, while Dr. Oppenheim's research offers scientific understanding, it has little relevance to the region's political dynamics that are shaped by myriad social factors. Hence, it is far from practical to conclude that Dr. Oppenheim's findings have much bearing on possible political solutions to the longstanding Arab-Israeli conflict. Indeed, Dr. Oppenheim, herself, acknowledges that the "family" relationship between the Jews and Palestinians that shows up from scientific research will not bring political "Redemption."
 
Thank you Mira.

I had heard of this before but this really does make it clear. Here are the bulk of the Jews who have been living in this area for 3,000 years.

It also reminded me that when I visited Israel in the 70's, I remember pointing out a soldier and asking why an arab was an Israeli soldier and being told he was a Jew but one who had remained all the time.

I am sorry no other person has comented on your films.
Just saw this because of the bump - can't watch the videos, I get an error message.

i wouldn't remotely doubt that some Palestinians' ancestors were Jews. When you look at the long brush of history going back thousands of years, with migration patterns within various empires (Roman, Babylonian, Persian, Arab, Ottoman, etc), there is little doubt that there is substantial comingling of different groups of people.

But ultimately it is about identity. Israelis wanted a state where Jews could be free. Free to exercise self-defence (unlike over the previous several thousand years, in ALL places they lived), free to set the cultural tone, free to pursue their self-identity.

I personally am not a big fan of the orthodox/hassidic view on "who is a jew" and "how one can become a Jew". It is NOT the same as it was back in the day, and it is really, really insular and archaic. Borne out of centuries of diaspora and persecution where you had to avoid, at all costs, the chrages you were subjverting members of the broader population at whose whim you existed.

I think those rules are the result of, and a constant remionder of, Jews' status as inferior in Europe and Muslim lands.

But back to the issue, I think the key point is self-identifcation - which group do you consider yourself a part of. I know that can get complex, and in conflict one may find it impossible not to choose sides (or have sides chosen for you), but that is the same in all conflicts, throughout history.

I for one would love to see the Islam that was forced on subjugated populations through centuries of oppression and persecution rolled back, with people who identify with an older heritage re-embracing that heritage (like the Bene Menashe in India or the Falash Mura in Ethiopia).

Course, I also see zero chance of that happening, and a 100% chance of horrible, horrible violence against those people if any of them do renounce the forced conversion of their ancestors and the re-embrace of their history (like, e.g., many Spanish who had ancestors who were forcibly converted in the 1400s but never fully abandoned their knowledge of who they were).

Just my few cents.
 
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It's clear that we're all from the same family, but unfortunately families also have conflicts. It's not unusual for brothers to fight with each other, so I don't think this is what will bring the Redemption. Unfortunately I wish it would bring the Redemption.

Thank you for posting this Don.

The above quote is what matters to me the most and what saddens me as well.
 
I think race plays to large of a role in many conflicts. Most Jews and Arabs/Palestinians will admit to being related. The major religions for each race (Judaism and Islam) both believe in Abraham. The Jews believe (as do I) that they are descendants of Abraham's son Isaac. The Arabs/Palestinians believe that they are descendants of Abraham's son Ishmael.

Whatever genetic/racial ties they may have seems irrelevant in this conflict. Although their is much animosity between the races (particularly Arab/Palestinian hostility towards Jews) the conflict isn't mainly about race and race is overplayed.
 
After reading a study such as this one, whoever isn't noticing the absurdity of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict must be either choosing not to notice it or is too proud to admit it.

I'm glad that this has been brought up. I'm sure that many of you will see the conflict from a different angle now. Doesn't matter if some nod, others protest and some simply remain quiet about it and prefer to ignore the thread altogether.
 
After reading a study such as this one, whoever isn't noticing the absurdity of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict must be either choosing not to notice it or is too proud to admit it.

I'm glad that this has been brought up. I'm sure that many of you will see the conflict from a different angle now. Doesn't matter if some nod, others protest and some simply remain quiet about it and prefer to ignore the thread altogether.

Why is it absurd? Jews and Palestinians should concede their national aspiration just because they are geneticaly related?
 
Why is it absurd? Jews and Palestinians should concede their national aspiration just because they are geneticaly related?
Mira seems to be under the Misimpression that Genetic relationship Precludes war and overrides all else.
When In Fact, Many/maybe most wars Are between Neighbors (India/Pak/Kashmir, or civil like the Balkans) who Are genetically related. So there should be no regional/related conflicts according to Mira's theory; which isn't one. Though a poignant aside for some 'palestinians'.

And while it remains true Palestinians (Syrians etc) are closely genetically related to the jews (as I posted here with a PNAS study a year ago), Later studies show that Jews' Closest genetic relatives are the Kurds.
Kurds, that while even More closely related, are a truly distinct Ethnic, Lingual, and cultural group.
Though unlike the less distinct Palestinians, have, apparently, no "Legitimate Rights to a State" and no worldwide fan club of such, because, let's face it, their 'occupiers' aren't Jews.

I've often said the way to get Kurds a state would be to give Israel the Eastern-most 5%/10% of Turkey. THEN we'd here about 'occupation' of traditional "Kurdish land" and the UN would go into emergency session and the NEWLY entitled Kurdish People's right to a State would be passed in Resolution after Resolution condemining the Israeli/Jewish "occupation".
As it is.. they can't be bothered.
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The issue is of genetics is only important because of all the people who keep saying Israel belongs to them because they are descended from the Tribes of Israel and God has promised them, the chosen people, Israel.

If it turns out to be true that some Palestinians are indeed descendants of the original Jews and have been handing down knowledge for so long that is extremely poignant.

"Sephardic North African Jews are genetic twins of their Iraq brethren, says a study by researchers [Nebel, Faerman, et al.] at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.... Although the genetic affinity of Jews to the ancient, Middle Eastern non-Arab populations is greater than to Arabs (as shown in the present study), a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and Palestinian Muslim Arabs (50%) belong to the same chromosome pool. An additional 30% of the Muslim Arab chromosomes belong to a very closely related lineage... [because] part - or perhaps the majority - of Muslim Arabs in the Land of Israel descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest of the 7th century A.D."

Jewish Genetics, Part 1: Jewish Populations (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, Yemenite, Ethiopian) DNA

At the same time we must be aware that genetics is still in its infancy. Much more will be learned in the future and do any of us bother to read all the geneticists material :doh

Then could this be true
In When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, Dr. Sand, an expert on European history at the University of Tel Aviv, says the Diaspora was largely a myth – that the Jews were never exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that many European Jewish populations converted to the faith centuries later.

Thus, Sand argues, many of today’s Israelis who emigrated from Europe after World War II have little or no genealogical connection to the land. According to Sand’s historical analysis, they are descendents of European converts, principally from the Kingdom of the Khazars in eastern Russia, who embraced Judaism in the Eighth Century, A.D.

Indeed, Sand theorizes that many Jews, who remained in Judea after Roman legions crushed the last uprising in 136 A.D., eventually converted to Christianity or Islam, meaning that the Palestinians who have been crowded into Gaza or concentrated in the West Bank might be direct descendants of Jews from the Roman era.

Middle East Online
 
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The issue is of genetics is only important because of all the people who keep saying Israel belongs to them because they are descended from the Tribes of Israel and God has promised them, the chosen people, Israel.
That wouldn't include me.
If it turns out to be true that some Palestinians are indeed descendants of the original Jews and have been handing down knowledge for so long that is extremely poignant.
I used "poignant" but still IRRELEVANT to my rebuttal of Mira's "Genetically related have no fight" theory.

Which remains in never-never land.

Then could this be true

Middle East Online
Could is actually Couldn't.
But you Have found another Anti-Jew Jew!
This time asserting there's not even a Jewish People. Bravo.
Notify the Finkelfuhrer crowd. (actually they've already read it and put it on some sites)

But if he was correct, this would also argue AGAINST Mira's already wrong 'genetically related/the same can't fight each other'.
Since Jews would no longer be so close with 'real' middle easterners.

So when you DEFLECT/are hot on getting in another shot, rather than stay on a linear debate/theme you often cross your allies.

Recent Genetics shows 40% of all Askenazi Jews are descended from just 4 Women and the rest from a mere 150!
Stunning really.

Wiki:
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews]Ashkenazi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
DNA clues
[.....]
[.....]
Male lineages: Y chromosomal DNA

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East.
The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim,"
and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."

A 2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries. The authors also report on Eu 19 chromosomes, which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%-60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. They hypothesized that these chromosomes could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding Eastern European populations, or, alternatively, that both the Ashkenazi Jews with Eu 19, and to a much greater extent Eastern European populations in general, might partly be descendants of Khazars. Again, this study suggested a total male admixture estimation that is no larger than ~12.5%.[17]

A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow. The authors hypothesized that "R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent vestiges of the mysterious Khazars". They concluded "However, if the R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazi Jews do indeed represent the vestiges of the mysterious Khazars then, according to our data, this contribution was limited to either a single founder or a few closely related men, and does not exceed ~ 12% of the present-day Ashkenazim.[18]
[.............]
Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA

Before 2006, geneticists largely attributed the genesis of most of the world's Jewish populations, including Ashkenazi Jews, to founding effects by males who migrated from the Middle East and "by the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism." In line with this model of origin, David Goldstein, now of Duke University, reported in 2002 that, unlike male lineages, the female lineages in Ashkenazi Jewish communities "did not seem to be Middle Eastern", and that each community had its own genetic pattern and even that "in some cases the mitochondrial DNA was closely related to that of the host community." In his view this suggested "that Jewish men had arrived from the Middle East, taken wives from the host population and converted them to Judaism, after which there was no further intermarriage with non-Jews."[20]

However, a 2006 study by Behar et al.,[1] based on high-resolution analysis of haplogroup K(mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Middle East in the first and second centuries CE. Although Haplogroup K is common throughout western Eurasia, "the observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population:
"..Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium.."[1][20]​

In addition, Behar et al. have suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from ~150 women, most of those likely of Middle Eastern origin.[...........]

Sands is just Foisting the Latest version of the OLD "Jews aren't Real Jews" (I started a string of that title) and the original "Jews are Khazars" bigotry first posed Arthur Koestller(1976) and Joyfully cited by most 'pro-palestinian' and ALL Hate Sites in an effort to detach Jews from Israel.
The owner of 'Khazaria.con.' K-Brook is/or-was also a proponent of this now Discredited theory: thus the site name and front page. I debunked him in direct debate on Yahoo years ago. As the Koestler/Khazars theory was debunkable even without genetics, which sealed the deal. (I suggest Google some of those key-words if you are interested)

And again, your posting of Sands argues Against Mira's theory, since he poses that they are less/not related but European.
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That wouldn't include me.


Since Jews would no longer be so close with 'real' middle easterners.[/b]
So when you DEFLECT/are hot on getting in another shot, rather than stay on a linear debate/theme you often cross your allies.

Recent Genetics shows 40% of all Askenazi Jews are descended from just 4 Women and the rest from a mere 150!
Stunning really.

Wiki:
Ashkenazi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you. I heard a few years ago that most of the people of the UK could be attributed to 3 women so this is not surprising.

I also note that there is no conclusive evidence of the location of these women.

I further note the middle East and have also noted your previous reference to your links with Kurds. There is as yet no evidence to suggest your link is actually to Israel that I can see.

Heck I remember hearing that it had been shown that the very first inhabitants of the UK were from the fertile crescent. Being the prodigy of a red head it has occurred to me that I might have Jewish blood in me. That would get you :shock: but now I start looking I find half the internet are indeed saying that the Celts are the lost tribes of Israel. :doh

Sands is just Foisting the Latest version of the OLD "Jews aren't Real Jews" (I started a string of that title) and the original "Jews are Khazars" bigotry first posed Arthur Koestller(1976) and Joyfully cited by most 'pro-palestinian' and ALL Hate Sites in an effort to detach Jews from Israel.

He is apparently an Israeli scholar. That sounds a bit rich that he would hate Jews.


The owner of 'Khazaria.con.' K-Brook is/or-was also a proponent of this now Discredited theory: thus the site name and front page. I debunked him in direct debate on Yahoo years ago. As the Koestler/Khazars theory was debunkable even without genetics, which sealed the deal. (I suggest Google some of those key-words if you are interested)

I would have to say some of what he says sounds plausible. I always understood Judaism to be a religion before I came on net forums and I suspect most ordinary people do.

Obviously not all Jews left the area. Some most certainly will have succumbed to forced giving up of their religion - no doubt the ones that kept passing it on in secret. Other will have intermingled with those of other faiths and given up their religion as people do but will still be genetically linked to the original Jews. It seems unimaginable this is not the case, whether or not people left.

(I heard that the Romans murdered 500,000 Jews and rounded up the rest to sell as slaves because they would not succumb)



And again, your posting of Sands argues Against Mira's theory, since he poses that they are less/not related but European.
-

My own theory and concern is for the Palestinian Jews who dare I say it should be inheriting Israel by your first statement. I cannot imagine that there are not many with at least the same amount of genetics as yourself.

You obviously have been looking into this for some time. I have not. It is fascinating.

and it has nothing to do with my views on Israel - though of course if it was found that many Palestinians are indeed descendants of the original Jews, then a one state solution might be the best. :bolt
 
Thank you. I heard a few years ago that most of the people of the UK could be attributed to 3 women so this is not surprising.
I also note that there is no conclusive evidence of the location of these women.
[.............]
My own theory and concern is for the Palestinian Jews who dare I say it should be inheriting Israel by your first statement. I cannot imagine that there are not many with at least the same amount of genetics as yourself.

and it has nothing to do with my views on Israel - though of course if it was found that many Palestinians are indeed descendants of the original Jews, then a one state solution might be the best. :bo--lt
Your welcome.
It's certainly conclusive enough to see that Jews ARE a people and originated in the Middle East-- considering they're closeness to Palestinians/Syrians in the early studies and Kurds in the later.

I think I can make a better case for "low-admixture" Diaspora Jews as a homogenous people than Palestinians in fact.
As someone here recently said, If one goes to Palestine one will see palestinians of all race.. from Black to blond. And these aren't Migrants of the last 60 years, but those mainly of the last 80-380 years.
Unlike Israel, and to say the least, Palestine really has no attraction as a safe-haven or economic opportunity for non-natives.
Palestine inhabited by a mixed population
[........]From the time the Arabians, along with their non-Arabian recruits, entered Palestine and Syria, they found and themselves added to what was "Ethnologically a Chaos of all the possible human combinations to which, when Palestine became a land of pilgrimage, a new admixture was added." Among the peoples who have been counted as "indigenous Palestinian Arabs" are Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudanese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, and Tartars.
John of Wurzburg lists for the middle era of the kingdom, Latins, Germans, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians,Egyptians, Copts, Maronites and natives from the Nile Delta. The list might be much extended, for it was the period of the great self-willed city-states in Europe, and Amalfi, Pisans, Genoese, Venetians, and Marseillais, who had quarters in all the bigger cities, owned villages, and had trading rights, would, in all probability, have submitted to any of the above designations, only under pressure. Besides all these, Norsemen, Danes, Frisians, Tartars, Jews, Arabs, Russians, Nubians, and Samaritans, can be safely added to the greatest human agglomeration drawn together in one small area of the globe."​
Greeks fled the Muslim rule in Greece, and landed in Palestine. By the mid-17 century, the Greeks lived everywhere in the Holy Land--constituting about 20% of the population-and their authority dominated the villages.
Between 1750 & 1766 Jaffa had been rebuilt, and had some 500 houses. Turks, Arabs, Greeks and Armenians and a solitary Latin monk lived there, to attend to the wants of the thousands of pilgrims who had to be temporarily housed in the port before proceeding to Jerusalem.​
"In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated Wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the 19th century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported.

Another source, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911 edition (before the "more chauvinist Arab history" began to prevail with the encouragement of the British), finds the "population" of Palestine composed of so "widely differing" a group of "inhabitants" -- whose "ethnological affinities" create "early in the 20th century a list of no less than 50 languages" (see below) -- that "it is therefore No easy task to write concisely ... on the Ethnology of Palestine." In addition to the "Assyrian, Persian and Roman" elements of ancient times, "the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages."
. . There are very Large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece and Italy . . . Turkoman settlements ... a number of Persians and a fairly large Afghan colony . . Motawila ... long settled immigrants from Persia ... tribes of Kurds... German "Templar" colonies ... a Bosnian colony ... and the Circassian settlements placed in certain centres ... by the Turkish government in order to keep a restraint on the Bedouin ... a large Algerian element in the population ... still maintain(s) [while] the Sudanese have been reduced in numbers since the beginning of the 20th century.​
In the late 18th century, 3,000 Albanians recruited by Russians were settled in Acre. The Encyclopaedia Britannica finds "most interesting all the non-Arab communities in the country. .
The Disparate peoples recently assumed and purported to be "settled Arab indigenes, for a thousand years" were in fact a "Heterogeneous" community With No "Palestinian" identity, and according to an official British historical analysis in 1920, No Arab identity either:
"The people west of the Jordan are Not Arabs, but Only Arabic-speaking. The bulk of the population are fellahin.... In the Gaza district they are mostly of Egyptian origin; elsewhere they are of the most mixed race."
Indeed, I'd like to see a study of West Bank Palestinians genetic affinities vs Gaza's.
Might prove interesting, even problematic.
Suppose Gazan's are closer to Egyptians than West Bankers. Do we deny Gaza's current residents a state... Or a state With West Bankers?


alexa said:
I further note the middle East and have also noted your previous reference to your links with Kurds. There is as yet no evidence to suggest your link is actually to Israel that I can see.
My belief is the Jews originated North of Israel somewhere, probably near those very Kurds. I believe that's somewhere in the lore as well.
But Jews history in Israel goes back to at least the late 13th Century BC.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...xisted-10th-century-bce-2.html#post1058543807
The 'first Jew' need not have been born in Tel Aviv to stake a good claim.
Which is based mostly on recent history, but with an assist to a very long if small continuous presence.
lexa said:
He is apparently an Israeli scholar. That sounds a bit rich that he would hate Jews.
He could just be wrong, and being wrong on that side is a good way to make a living. Ha'aretz has dramatically more readership because some of it's columnists please Arabs and others rather than just a domestic market.


alexa said:
I would have to say some of what he says sounds plausible. I always understood Judaism to be a religion before I came on net forums and I suspect most ordinary people do.
And as a secular, then atheist Jew, I have always considered it a culture and way of life.
It's Corned Beef, It's Ironic humor, a degree of intellectualism/art/culture, it's NY.
But, as for most Jews, little-to-no scripture.
The only persecution I've personally noted is Not of Jews' religion, but of the Race. Indeed that's what the the Reich was about; Race.
They didn't care/object to what was in Leviticus.


You obviously have been looking into this for some time. I have not. It is fascinating.
When I first started looking into it and posting it... There was No Wikipedia summarizing all the recent research.
Finding that previously posted PNAS link was a scoop; I felt like Showmaker&Levy finding that comet.
(My first posting of it I can find, but not the first was as 'abu afak' here: [ame=http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=2907]Let's debate - Israel Forum[/ame] followed by another link/expired on the following page.)
I still use it now perhaps 7 or 8 years later even though there's been much since.
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the notion of a "homogeneous people" sadly reminds me a certain man with a tiny mustache.
 
the notion of a "homogeneous people" sadly reminds me a certain man with a tiny mustache.
I seriously hope you're referring to Charlie Chaplin, because drawing comparisons to Hitler on the Holocaust remembrance day is quite messed up.
 
I seriously hope you're referring to Charlie Chaplin, because drawing comparisons to Hitler on the Holocaust remembrance day is quite messed up.

My remark has NOTHING to do with the Holocaust remembrance day. But you tell me, who was the king of the idea of a "homogeneous people" ?
 
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