Palestinian Refusal to Recognize Israel as the Home for the Jewish People

[Tucker Case]

Moderator's Warning:

Here is a clarification of how the rules are interpreted regarding the term "nation". First of all the following statements: "Jews are not a nation" or "Palestinians are not a nation" are not, in and of themselves, violations of the rules regarding variations of claims they Jews/Palestinians are not a true people. this is because there are multiple definitions of the word "nation" and the actual meaning of the statements are greatly altered depends on the specific definition of "Nation" that is used in those statements. In this case, there are two separate definitions of "nation" being used and that is triggering the confusion. On one hand, you have people using the following definition: "A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language" On the other hand, you have people using this definition: "A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country." If someone is using the first definition above, then the statement is a violation of the forum rules. This is because using that definition, both Jews and Palestinians are nations and to deny that is to deny that they are a "true people" However, if someone is using the second definition above, then the statement is not a violation of forum rules. This is because if we use the second definition above, neither of these two groups are nations. This is becuase of the all-important inclusion of the term "organized under a single... government". Neither Jews nor Palestinians fit that qualification for Nation using that definition. Source for these definitions: Nation - definition of Nation by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. First group of definitions. Now, if you disagree with this interpretation, you can take it up with the good people at "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved." There will be no further acusations in-thread regarding the use of "nation" being against the rules. If you have an issue with it, report the post. If you want to know the definition of "nation" that a person is using, then ask them. Some of you are equivocating by using BOTH of the above definitions interchangeably when they are more suitable for your arguments and are thus adding to the confusion. I could care less about fallacious arguments. I do care about people who are using those fallacies pretending that someone who is not doing that is violating the rules. If you are not a mod, then the only thing you should be doing is reporting the post. If you are not a mod, then don't tell people what the rules are. This is my final warning on this issue.

 

[Apocalypse]

It does not matter at all if there is a Palestinian ethnicity or not. They could be originally from Mars for all I care.

At no point did I refer to its importance or relevance, was merely correcting a wrong statement.

 

[ido_]

This kind of nonsense is why I post so much about Israel in case anyone is wondering. So many people here are just obscenely biased towards Israel.

Among my people I live, I see non-Jewish minorities in general and arabs in particular in all aspects of our society - goverment, culture, sicence, industry, sports, even in the IDF, I don't know when was your last visit to Israel, but please share with us what you've witnessed in this visit.

The declaration is not a law and Israeli policies immediately following that declaration directly contradicted many aspects of the declaration especially those concerning equality.

So the declaration of independence is something you consider adequate? What if the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel's charecter as it is defined in the decleration of indepedence?

 

[Demon of Light]

Ido in this case is biased towards the truth, everyone in Israel is equal in front of the law.
You've never been to Israel I take it.

In theory you are mostly correct when describing Israel today, but in reality it is definitely not the case.

The declaration of independence actually has a legal value and it is unofficially considered in the courts to be a constitutional law.
Many cases in Israel have been won on the sole basis of the declaration of independence, like the one that has allowed female soldiers to become pilots in the IAF.

That is probably a recent development, because it sure as hell wasn't treated like a law between 1948 and 1966.

Among my people I live, I see non-Jewish minorities in general and arabs in particular in all aspects of our society - goverment, culture, sicence, industry, sports, even in the IDF, I don't know when was your last visit to Israel, but please share with us what you've witnessed in this visit.

I get it, it is your country and therefore you think your opinion is more legitimate. However, I find the more strongly a person identifies with a country, the less objective that person becomes about that country. You strongly identify with Israel and as a result you are less objective about the situation in your own country.

Israel embraces the concept of "separate but equal" in how it treats Arabs. Just like how that doctrine did not mean equality for African-Americans it does not mean equality for Israeli Arabs. It means the opposite.

 

[ido_]

In theory you are mostly correct when describing Israel today, but in reality it is definitely not the case.



That is probably a recent development, because it sure as hell wasn't treated like a law between 1948 and 1966.



I get it, it is your country and therefore you think your opinion is more legitimate. However, I find the more strongly a person identifies with a country, the less objective that person becomes about that country. You strongly identify with Israel and as a result you are less objective about the situation in your own country.

Israel embraces the concept of "separate but equal" in how it treats Arabs. Just like how that doctrine did not mean equality for African-Americans it does not mean equality for Israeli Arabs. It means the opposite.

No, my opinion is more legitimate because I'm not full of ****, I'm speaking of what I know and witness, not what I hear from some internet news site which claws on to individual stories to paint a dissorted picture of the reality
Arabs are not seperate in any way. As I said earlier, they are in every aspect of our society. Hospitals have arab and jewish doctors and nurses, high tech companies employ both jewish engineers and arab engineers, there are arab football players on the israeli national team, arab correspondants in the news, arab actors on the TV, the only thing they are seperate in is the education system, by their own choise, they can go to jewish schools if they would choose to do so.

 

[Apocalypse]

In theory you are mostly correct when describing Israel today, but in reality it is definitely not the case.

Is that an answer to "you've never been to Israel I take it"?

That is probably a recent development, because it sure as hell wasn't treated like a law between 1948 and 1966.

Not so recent, no, but it was always given some credibility since the establishment of the state. Israel was a democracy since its beginning, after all.

I get it, it is your country and therefore you think your opinion is more legitimate. However, I find the more strongly a person identifies with a country, the less objective that person becomes about that country. You strongly identify with Israel and as a result you are less objective about the situation in your own country.

Israel embraces the concept of "separate but equal" in how it treats Arabs. Just like how that doctrine did not mean equality for African-Americans it does not mean equality for Israeli Arabs. It means the opposite.

I'm afraid you're simply uninformed. The laws in Israel enforce equality, there is no room for legal discrimination, and in the rare occurrences when there is such case it causes an uproar and has its consequences. Just like in every other western democracy, really.

Your claim about bias is fine and dandy but in reality a person who lives in a country would surely know more about it than a stranger whose entire take on the country is coming from a position of agenda and political interests, and not from visiting it.

 

[Degreez]

I'm afraid you're simply uninformed. The laws in Israel enforce equality, there is no room for legal discrimination, and in the rare occurrences when there is such case it causes an uproar and has its consequences. Just like in every other western democracy, really.

Your claim about bias is fine and dandy but in reality a person who lives in a country would surely know more about it than a stranger whose entire take on the country is coming from a position of agenda and political interests, and not from visiting it.

Or Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Or Commission found that Arab citizens suffer discrimination in Israel and leveled criticism at the government for failing to give fair and equal attention to the needs of Arab citizens of Israel.

"The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state. Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon."

Racism and ethnic discrimination in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Over two-thirds Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together....The report becomes even grimmer, citing the ACRI's racism poll, taken in March of 2007, in which 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes."

The Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education notes that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student. The drop-out rate for Arab citizens of Israel is twice as high as that of their Jewish counterparts (12 percent versus 6 percent). The same group also notes that there is a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector.

Discrimination has been documented regarding ownership and leasing of land in Israel, because approximately 13% of Israel's land (the land owned by the Jewish National Fund) is restricted to Jewish ownership and tenancy, so Arabs are prevented from buying or leasing that land.

 

[Demon of Light]

No, my opinion is more legitimate because I'm not full of sheet, I'm speaking of what I know and witness, not what I hear from some internet news site which claws on to individual stories to paint a dissorted picture of the reality

Why do people always presume to know what sites I frequent? I know you don't actually have a way of monitoring what sites I look at because if you did you would know that my sources are generally quite authoritative.

Arabs are not seperate in any way.

What can I say? You are simply wrong, which is kind of pathetic considering it is your own country we are talking about.

As I said earlier, they are in every aspect of our society. Hospitals have arab and jewish doctors and nurses, high tech companies employ both jewish engineers and arab engineers, there are arab football players on the israeli national team, arab correspondants in the news, arab actors on the TV

These examples are so meaningless that it kind of infuriates me that you actually think that proves anything. Maybe you know the story of the 1936 Olympics where African-American Jesse Owens won several gold medals. That was when segregation was still a problem in the North! All the areas you mention are typically the first to be integrated. Also, it depends on what kind of Arabs we are talking about. The Druze are generally considered an ethnic group distinct from the general Arab population and are not even exempt from compulsory military service. There is also much greater tolerance for Christian Arabs.

the only thing they are seperate in is the education system, by their own choise, they can go to jewish schools if they would choose to do so.

A law passed just 10 years ago did prohibit discrimination against Arabs in some areas of education, but if they are going to a state school there is no choice involved as I understand. From what I can tell it seems that has most meaning for private schools, which apparently are mostly Christian and thus predominantly Arab anyway.

It seems the way things are in Israel most Jewish Israelis are bigoted towards Arabs and much of the remainder are simply ignorant of the problems in their own country. That is the result of this ethnonationalist doctrine on which Israel was founded and you claim is so important for the Palestinians to embrace.

Not so recent, no, but it was always given some credibility since the establishment of the state. Israel was a democracy since its beginning, after all.

I guess that depends on how you define democracy. Corralling minorities into ghettos and denying them basic human rights is not suggestive of democracy to me.

I'm afraid you're simply uninformed. The laws in Israel enforce equality, there is no room for legal discrimination, and in the rare occurrences when there is such case it causes an uproar and has its consequences. Just like in every other western democracy, really.

There is plenty of room for legal discrimination. Discrimination is actually sanctioned by law in some cases. You just have such a rosy picture of your country that you fail to see it.

Your claim about bias is fine and dandy but in reality a person who lives in a country would surely know more about it than a stranger whose entire take on the country is coming from a position of agenda and political interests, and not from visiting it.

Unlike you I am not so arrogant in assuming that someone who is not from my country can know more about it. My agenda and political interests concern many of the values Israel claims to uphold, though fails to honor. Some elements of the culture cannot be easily divined without direct personal experience, but when dealing with major systemic issues like this any suggestion that a person needs to visit the country to understand is just ridiculous.

Everything you or any of the Israeli members of this forum have said to justify your claims is something I can verify without going to Israel. By the same token I can review polling data, look at reported accounts, study the laws, and read objective reports on the situation to allow me to understand why what you are saying is not even close to a sufficient justification.

 

[ido_]

What can I say? You are simply wrong, which is kind of pathetic considering it is your own country we are talking about.

Such arrogance... what can I say... I'm sorry for you. You simply have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Degreez]

Such arrogance... what can I say... I'm sorry for you. You simply have no clue what you are talking about.

Arrogance is believing your country can do absolutely no wrong. I posted a link to a commission set up by the Israeli government which details discriminatory in Israeli society. It has been totally disregarded.

 

[ido_]

Arrogance is believing your country can do absolutely no wrong. I posted a link to a commission set up by the Israeli government which details discriminatory in Israeli society. It has been totally disregarded.

I do not believe my country does nothing wrong, it does many wrongs, not necessarily towards Arabs.
I think in general the status of Israeli Arabs is very good, and I think that they suffer no more injustice than Jews who live in small neglected towns such as Yeruham, Ofakim, Karmiel or Kiryat Shmona. But after sharing a room in the dorms with two Israeli Arabs, and working in projects with others at my studies and today at work, I can't see how those guys lives are any different than my own except for their native language.

As for your link, I've missed it, I'll take a look later on.

 

[ido_]

Racism and ethnic discrimination in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Over two-thirds Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together....The report becomes even grimmer, citing the ACRI's racism poll, taken in March of 2007, in which 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes."

The Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education notes that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student. The drop-out rate for Arab citizens of Israel is twice as high as that of their Jewish counterparts (12 percent versus 6 percent). The same group also notes that there is a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector.

First let me say that the education system in Israel sucks, Israeli teens aren't so bright either, its not an excuse but education has been neglected by so many goverments in Israel that it is not supprising that you will see injustices in it.

The (pretty stupid) logic behind the funds is explained here:
Israel aids its needy Jewish students more than Arab counterparts - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Please note that in the end the ministry of education already claimed that they are in a middle of a reform to change this.

Discrimination has been documented regarding ownership and leasing of land in Israel, because approximately 13% of Israel's land (the land owned by the Jewish National Fund) is restricted to Jewish ownership and tenancy, so Arabs are prevented from buying or leasing that land.

Over the years there were ways of bypassing this ideal of the JNF, usually by land swaps between the state and the JNF, after the JNF stated it will be more strict in imposing this ideal there were several petitions to the supreme court regarding this matter, the legal advisor of the Israeli goverment ruled that such a policy is violating the anti-discrimination laws in 2005, the supreme court didn't rule in this matter yet.

Now lets take a look at this, which you have conveniently ignored:

Within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights. Arabs are represented in the (Israeli parliament) Knesset, and in public life.[3][15] Arab nationalist, communist and Islamic parties are represented in the Knesset.[16] an Arab Justice was appointed to the Supreme Court[17] According to Jimmy Carter,

"I recognize that Israel is a wonderful democracy with freedom of speech and equality of treatment under the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis."[18]

Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.[19] The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of basic laws (Israel does not have a written constitution).[20] Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty"[21] and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)"[22] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[23]

Dr. Tashbih Sayyed, a Shi'ite Pakistani-American scholar, journalist, and author, denied that Muslim Arab citizen of Israel do not have equal rights, and said that Arabs are protected by Israel's democratic principles, and afforded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship. In contrast to the non-Israeli Arab world, Arab women in Israel enjoy the same status as men. Muslim women have the right to vote and to be elected to public office. Muslim women, according to Sayyed, are in fact are more liberated in Israel than in any Muslim country. Israeli law prohibits polygamy, child marriage, and female sexual mutilation.[24]

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), a pro-Israel media monitoring and research organization, argues that since they are not required to serve in military, yet still have all the rights accorded Jews in Israel, Arabs in Israel are at an advantage. As evidence they cite various cases in which Israeli courts have found in favor of Arab citizens.[25]

If Jimmy Carter says this... well I rest my case.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

Get it back on track or I close the thread

 

[Laila]

What is the big deal about recognising Israel as a Jewish State.
It is, same as 99% of "Muslim majority" countries are classified as "Muslim States" :roll:

If Palestinians really do have such a issue with it, we will get no where. Just offer the recognition as a trade of for Jews recognising Muslim equal claim to Jerusalem. That ought to shut up the ultra nationalist/religious amongst the Arabs

 

[washunut]

What is the big deal about recognising Israel as a Jewish State.
It is, same as 99% of "Muslim majority" countries are classified as "Muslim States" :roll:

If Palestinians really do have such a issue with it, we will get no where. Just offer the recognition as a trade of for Jews recognising Muslim equal claim to Jerusalem. That ought to shut up the ultra nationalist/religious amongst the Arabs

This post seems to be uneducated in the history of Israel and the region. After all was not Israel proclaimed the homeland for the Jewish people when it is was created. If Jerusalem should be shared, how about Mecca. Let's set that up under the control of the U.N. and anyone wanting to visit is free to do so.

 

[Laila]

This post seems to be uneducated in the history of Israel and the region. After all was not Israel proclaimed the homeland for the Jewish people when it is was created. If Jerusalem should be shared, how about Mecca. Let's set that up under the control of the U.N. and anyone wanting to visit is free to do so.

Jerusalem is as much Christians and Muslims as it is Jews.

I didn't realise anyone other than Muslims viewed Mecca as holy. Enlighten me on when Jews wanted to pray in Mecca :roll:

 

[donsutherland1]

What is the big deal about recognising Israel as a Jewish State.
It is, same as 99% of "Muslim majority" countries are classified as "Muslim States" :roll:

If Palestinians really do have such a issue with it, we will get no where. Just offer the recognition as a trade of for Jews recognising Muslim equal claim to Jerusalem. That ought to shut up the ultra nationalist/religious amongst the Arabs

Laila,

You have made a key point. Few object to official designations such as the "Islamic Republic of Iran," for example. I don't believe the designation per se is the issue. Moreover, there are substantive ways to get around the issue.

Unfortunately, I believe the substance is the issue. It concerns the Palestinian demand for a "right of return" of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants to Israel. Recognition of Israel as a home for the Jewish people would negate that demand. Ultimately, if there is to be a peace agreement, the Palestinians will need to compromise, allowing a return of refugees and their descendants to the new Palestinian state, not Israel, and accepting a measure of compensation to help resettle the refugees, etc.

 

[washunut]

Laila,

You have made a key point. Few object to official designations such as the "Islamic Republic of Iran," for example. I don't believe the designation per se is the issue. Moreover, there are substantive ways to get around the issue.

Unfortunately, I believe the substance is the issue. It concerns the Palestinian demand for a "right of return" of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants to Israel. Recognition of Israel as a home for the Jewish people would negate that demand. Ultimately, if there is to be a peace agreement, the Palestinians will need to compromise, allowing a return of refugees and their descendants to the new Palestinian state, not Israel, and accepting a measure of compensation to help resettle the refugees, etc.

Don I think you totally miss the point of Laila. You can't be so naive as to believe that she does not understand that this tied to the right of return. This seems to me as just another ploy to delegitimize the state of israel. I would not delude myself thinking you can explain a point already known by Laila and others. They are fighting the same 62 year war, just trying another tact.

 

[ptif219]

Don I think you totally miss the point of Laila. You can't be so naive as to believe that she does not understand that this tied to the right of return. This seems to me as just another ploy to delegitimize the state of israel. I would not delude myself thinking you can explain a point already known by Laila and others. They are fighting the same 62 year war, just trying another tact.

Jerusalem (WebBible

 

[donsutherland1]

Don I think you totally miss the point of Laila. You can't be so naive as to believe that she does not understand that this tied to the right of return. This seems to me as just another ploy to delegitimize the state of israel. I would not delude myself thinking you can explain a point already known by Laila and others. They are fighting the same 62 year war, just trying another tact.

Washunut,

I do agree with you about a delegitimization effort.

But with respect to Laila's point, in the past she has taken relatively pragmatic positions, so I'm not sure that she embraces the demand that Palestinian refugees resettle in Israel. Of course, I could be mistaken.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

ptif219 - You are thread banned for ignoring the Mod Box Warning in Post #63. Do not post in this thread again. SIMPLE SUMMARY OF TEMPORARY RULE CHANGES: Thread Bans will be issued with a 0 point “Thread Ban Infraction” warning the poster that they are now thread banned and they should not post any further in the thread. Staying banned from a thread is not hard coded Any additional posts in a thread after a thread banning will result in a 5 point DBAJ infraction. All subsequent posts after will continue to have a similar infraction levied Thread Bans will always be announced in thread to help with enforcement and notification All are temporary measures until a hard coded “Thread Ban” system is able to be added to the forum.

 

[Demon of Light]

You have made a key point. Few object to official designations such as the "Islamic Republic of Iran," for example. I don't believe the designation per se is the issue. Moreover, there are substantive ways to get around the issue.

Has any Muslim country demanded to be recognized as a country for Muslims? Simply calling a dominantly Muslim country a Muslim country is not the same as what we are talking about.

Unfortunately, I believe the substance is the issue. It concerns the Palestinian demand for a "right of return" of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants to Israel. Recognition of Israel as a home for the Jewish people would negate that demand. Ultimately, if there is to be a peace agreement, the Palestinians will need to compromise, allowing a return of refugees and their descendants to the new Palestinian state, not Israel, and accepting a measure of compensation to help resettle the refugees, etc.

Earlier I made a point of saying that such recognition was not needed to achieve all the things you claimed would be threatened for not granting such recognition. Rather, recognizing Israel as a sovereign state with the same rights as a sovereign state is all that is needed.

 

[Gardener]

Has any Muslim country demanded to be recognized as a country for Muslims? Simply calling a dominantly Muslim country a Muslim country is not the same as what we are talking about.

The very constitutions of many Muslim countries define themselves as "Islamic republics" complete with mandated state religion.

 

[Demon of Light]

The very constitutions of many Muslim countries define themselves as "Islamic republics" complete with mandated state religion.

That is not what I asked. I asked if any of those countries have demanded the world recognize them in any sense other than recognizing them as sovereign states and respecting their internal affairs.

 

[Tucker Case]

That is not what I asked. I asked if any of those countries have demanded the world recognize them in any sense other than recognizing them as sovereign states and respecting their internal affairs.

That could simply be because nobody ever refuses to recognize the fact that they are a country for mulsims. The refusal to recognize may well be the trigger for the demand to recognize, not vice versa.