Palestinian Refusal to Recognize Israel as the Home for the Jewish People

[Tucker Case]

It's more than just a semantic disagreement. It is an intentional effort to delegitimize.

I disagree with your assesment. He clearly indicated that Jewish was also an ethncity, not merely a religion. The comparison was to the Kurds, basque, and moros.

 

[Tucker Case]

It's not the first time (or the tenth) that we have a confusing here between nationality as citizenship and nationality as a nation member.

I think that a lot of it comes from when people use the term "Nation" when they really mean "Nation-State". Nation-state refers to geo-political entities (which are bounded by geography), while Nations are a collection of people (and they are not necessarily bounded by geography).

 

[Demon of Light]

Because it would undermine the right of self-determination for the Jewish people. Flooding Israel with Palestinian refugees and their descendants would negate UNSCOP's original intent of honoring the self determination of the region's two peoples, giving precedence to just one of them. In effect, Israel would cease to exist.

That's rather circular there. What you describe would end Israel as a Jewish state and I am asking what you think would be the result of Israel no longer being a Jewish state? Do you think something bad is going to happen if Israel becomes a majority Arab state?

 

[Degreez]

You might want to check and see who's in charge of Gaza and, therefore, who actually represents the Palestinians, there, and "recognizes" Israel or not. When you find out who's in charge of Gaza, please post that group's name and let us know if they have recognized Israel as a Jewish state or not.

The PLO is the sole legitimate representatives of the Palestinians. Hamas is a group who won parliamentary elections in Gaza. Israel is the nation that caused Hamas to completely takeover the Gaza Strip.

Your statement is faulty when you suggest Hamas "actually represents" the Palestinians, because they do not. They might represent a portion of Gazans, but even that is disingenuous because over 50% of the population is unable to vote.

 

[ido_]

Jewish is not a nation it is a religon/ethnicity.

Can someone please explain how come saying "There is no such think as Palestinian nation" is against the forum's laws but this statement is just fine?

LT, 6 million Jews say otherwise, you can burry your head in the sand and refuse to accept this fact for another 60 years, or you can face reality and perhaps the Palestinian nation and the Jewish nation will be able to live side by side in peace finally.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The PLO is the sole legitimate representatives of the Palestinians. Hamas is a group who won parliamentary elections in Gaza. Israel is the nation that caused Hamas to completely takeover the Gaza Strip.

No, Hamas and their desire to attack Israel is the reason why Gaza was taken over. The PLO wasn't "hard-line" enough for them. Let's place the blame where it belongs.

Your statement is faulty when you suggest Hamas "actually represents" the Palestinians, because they do not. They might represent a portion of Gazans, but even that is disingenuous because over 50% of the population is unable to vote.

Hamas is the government entity that represents the Palestinians in Gaza. It is no one's fault but theirs if they do not allow the majority of the population to vote. Please don't misrepresent information.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Look at it this way

How would african americans, native americans view the US if it declared itself as a White Anglo Saxon Protestant state?

Why not just have Israel declare itself an Israeli state home for all Israelis

Israel has been this way since it's inception. The US has not. Big difference.

 

[William Rea]

You might want to check and see who's in charge of Gaza and, therefore, who actually represents the Palestinians, there, and "recognizes" Israel or not. When you find out who's in charge of Gaza, please post that group's name and let us know if they have recognized Israel as a Jewish state or not.

You can't have it both ways.

As far as I am aware Hamas are not involved in talks because they are not recognised as being legitimate leaders of the Palestinians. Now you are saying that they do represent the Palestinians so, if they do represent the Palestinians and you're not talking to them that makes the talks about as useful as a chocolate teapot. If they don't represent the Palestinians then why are you bothered about what their charter says?

 

[Mira]

Hamas is the government entity that represents the Palestinians in Gaza. It is no one's fault but theirs if they do not allow the majority of the population to vote. Please don't misrepresent information.

They cannot vote because they are under 18 years of age.

 

[Gardener]

Can someone please explain how come saying "There is no such think as Palestinian nation" is against the forum's laws but this statement is just fine?

The rules written for this forum do state that such hate speech is forbidden.

 

[Tucker Case]

Moderator's Warning:

If you have issues with moderation, there are appropriate methods of voicing those issues. Doing it in-thread is not one of them.

 

[Demon of Light]

Can someone please explain how come saying "There is no such think as Palestinian nation" is against the forum's laws but this statement is just fine?

Well, I think it is a much more open question. Palestinians are defined solely by a national identity. On the other hand Jewish can refer to the adherents of Judaism, people of the Jewish ethnicity, and then there is the identity of a Jewish nation. Someone who has no Jewish heritage may convert to Judaism. Is that person ethnically Jewish, a member of the Jewish nation, both, or neither?

As all are referred to as Jewish it can create confusion and a disagreement over how to classify them. Unfortunately some take advantage of this issue to advance their opinions. When it is convenient for Jewish to be a nation it is, when it is convenient for Jewish to be an ethnicity it is, and when it is convenient for Jewish to be a religion it is.

 

[Degreez]

No, Hamas and their desire to attack Israel is the reason why Gaza was taken over. The PLO wasn't "hard-line" enough for them. Let's place the blame where it belongs.

No, Israel's desire to control all things in the occupied territories is how Hamas took complete control of the Gaza Strip. What was the response to what the Western world called "fair elections"? Economic sanctions, because Hamas would not honor previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements. By that logic, Israel should be sanctioned because parties that forms its coalition government do not honor previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements, such as National Union. The National Union Party rejects all the Oslo Accords, any notion of a Palestinian state, and believes violating international humanitarian law is a right.

Hamas is the government entity that represents the Palestinians in Gaza. It is no one's fault but theirs if they do not allow the majority of the population to vote. Please don't misrepresent information.

... The only person misrepresenting anything is you, considered your argument is weak and flawed. The majority of the population is unable to vote because they are not of age to vote. That is Palestinian Law, since the 70's. And you blame it on Hamas because your argument is weak and flawed. About 40% of Gazans are between 25 years old to 64 years old.

And what you ignore about the Hamas takeover of the Strip is Israeli and US funding of Fatah to start a conflict between the two. I wasn't aware it was legitimate to start assassinating political rivalries because your group lost legislative elections. This is exactly what happened with Hamas when they first got noticed. Support them because they are a direct counterbalance to the PLO and Fatah, which Israel did. Only they gave them too much money and too much support in the beginning, and now look at where Hamas is. That is Israel's backlash for trying to meddle in foreign politics.

Please don't post statements that are completely ignorant of recent history.

 

[ido_]

Well, I think it is a much more open question. Palestinians are defined solely by a national identity. On the other hand Jewish can refer to the adherents of Judaism, people of the Jewish ethnicity, and then there is the identity of a Jewish nation. Someone who has no Jewish heritage may convert to Judaism. Is that person ethnically Jewish, a member of the Jewish nation, both, or neither?

As all are referred to as Jewish it can create confusion and a disagreement over how to classify them. Unfortunately some take advantage of this issue to advance their opinions. When it is convenient for Jewish to be a nation it is, when it is convenient for Jewish to be an ethnicity it is, and when it is convenient for Jewish to be a religion it is.

Please back this claim with an example, where did you encounter a Zionist Jew who claims that the Jews are not a nation?
You my friend will not define MY identity. The Jews are a nation, a person who is a part of this nationality doesn't have to be Jewish by religion, for all I care Palestinians can have all of the west bank including East Jerusalem and the old city but I will never accept a "peace" treaty where they will continue to refuse acknowledging my nationality and my nation's right for self determination, such a treaty doesn't worth the paper its written on.

 

[Demon of Light]

Please back this claim with an example, where did you encounter a Zionist Jew who claims that the Jews are not a nation?

That is a loaded question. A Zionist is by definition someone who believes in a Jewish nation. Of course, different strains of Zionism have different opinions on who is a member of that nation. Talking about "the Jews" as a nation can be misleading as someone may be considered Jewish without being considered part of a Jewish nation. Is every Irish-American considered to be part of the Irish nation?

I will never accept a "peace" treaty where they will continue to refuse acknowledging my nationality and my nation's right for self determination, such a treaty doesn't worth the paper its written on.

This is not about recognizing Jews as people, but Israel as a state for that people. Why do the Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state? Simply respecting Israel's territorial integrity and acknowledging that Israel has the right to determine restrictions on immigration and citizenship will achieve everything you claim needs to be achieved by having Israel recognized as a Jewish state. Indeed recognition of those rights means recognition of a Palestinian right to return is of no real consequence to Israel even if one does not consider that the vast majority have no interest in returning.

 

[ido_]

That is a loaded question. A Zionist is by definition someone who believes in a Jewish nation. Of course, different strains of Zionism have different opinions on who is a member of that nation.

Good, so the vast majority of the Jews in Israel believe that Jews are a nation, do you think that you can do anything about that? you think we will wake up one day and change our minds about our identity

Talking about "the Jews" as a nation can be misleading as someone may be considered Jewish without being considered part of a Jewish nation. Is every Irish-American considered to be part of the Irish nation?

I will leave it to other people to form their national identity. the 6 million Jews in this country has a strong jewish national identity.

This is not about recognizing Jews as people, but Israel as a state for that people. Why do the Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state? Simply respecting Israel's territorial integrity and acknowledging that Israel has the right to determine restrictions on immigration and citizenship will achieve everything you claim needs to be achieved by having Israel recognized as a Jewish state. Indeed recognition of those rights means recognition of a Palestinian right to return is of no real consequence to Israel even if one does not consider that the vast majority have no interest in returning.

They have to accept Israel as a Jewish state because of two reasons:
1. The whole conflict was driven out of their aspiration to destroy the Jewish state and because they never accepted the fact that there is a Jewish nation
2. If we agree that there is a Jewish nation, this nation has a right for self determination just as the Palestinian nation does, they must accept this right and acknowledge Israel as the nation state of the Jewish nation. the two state solution is 2 states for 2 nations, not 2 states, one for the Palestinian nation and one bi-national.

 

[Demon of Light]

Good, so the vast majority of the Jews in Israel believe that Jews are a nation, do you think that you can do anything about that? you think we will wake up one day and change our minds about our identity

I don't really care. So long as promotion of your national identity does not lead to systemic discrimination against non-Jews in Israel as it has or any other bad policies.

I will leave it to other people to form their national identity. the 6 million Jews in this country has a strong jewish national identity.

I don't think you speak for all Jews in Israel, my friend.

They have to accept Israel as a Jewish state because of two reasons:
1. The whole conflict was driven out of their aspiration to destroy the Jewish state and because they never accepted the fact that there is a Jewish nation
2. If we agree that there is a Jewish nation, this nation has a right for self determination just as the Palestinian nation does, they must accept this right and acknowledge Israel as the nation state of the Jewish nation. the two state solution is 2 states for 2 nations, not 2 states, one for the Palestinian nation and one bi-national.

The difference is that Palestinians are only a national group. What I mentioned is all that is needed to allay any fears of Israel ceasing to be a Jewish state and are far less damaging than declaring that non-Jewish citizens have no claim to the country they and their ancestors have lived in for centuries.

 

[digsbe]

Israel is a proclaimed Jewish state, yet all faith and races have equal protection under the law. I see no problem with Israel being the Jewish homeland, because it is. That's like denying and refusing to recognize the KSA as the Arab homeland and a Muslim state.

 

[ido_]

I don't really care. So long as promotion of your national identity does not lead to systemic discrimination against non-Jews in Israel as it has or any other bad policies.

well it doesn't

I don't think you speak for all Jews in Israel, my friend.

I believe I speak the minds of the vast majority of them in Israel, mybe 1 out of 50 will tell you otherwise and they will be either anarchists or ultra orthodox jews

The difference is that Palestinians are only a national group. What I mentioned is all that is needed to allay any fears of Israel ceasing to be a Jewish state and are far less damaging than declaring that non-Jewish citizens have no claim to the country they and their ancestors have lived in for centuries.

The declearation of independence clearly states that there is no reason for such fears.

 

[Demon of Light]

well it doesn't

This kind of nonsense is why I post so much about Israel in case anyone is wondering. So many people here are just obscenely biased towards Israel.

The declearation of independence clearly states that there is no reason for such fears.

The declaration is not a law and Israeli policies immediately following that declaration directly contradicted many aspects of the declaration especially those concerning equality.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Can someone please explain how come saying "There is no such think as Palestinian nation" is against the forum's laws but this statement is just fine?

LT, 6 million Jews say otherwise, you can burry your head in the sand and refuse to accept this fact for another 60 years, or you can face reality and perhaps the Palestinian nation and the Jewish nation will be able to live side by side in peace finally.

Is saying their is no Palestinian nation against forum laws?

I will state right now there is no Palestinian nation, there is a Palestinian ethnicity, identity but no nation. There is potential for a Palestinian nation but it does not exist

I would expect when people who have been given warnings or points for stating there is no Palestinian nation are tending to mean there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

 

[Demon of Light]

I will state right now there is no Palestinian nation, there is a Palestinian ethnicity, identity but no nation. There is potential for a Palestinian nation but it does not exist

I would expect when people who have been given warnings or points for stating there is no Palestinian nation are tending to mean there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

I think Tucker dealt with this in that there is a difference between a nation and a nation-state. There is no Palestinian ethnicity, it is the Palestinian nation of which you are thinking.

 

[Apocalypse]

Is saying their is no Palestinian nation against forum laws?

I will state right now there is no Palestinian nation, there is a Palestinian ethnicity, identity but no nation. There is potential for a Palestinian nation but it does not exist

I would expect when people who have been given warnings or points for stating there is no Palestinian nation are tending to mean there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

There is no Palestinian ethnicity, they mainly come from the Arab ethnicity, and yes saying that there is no Palestinian nation (people) is against the forum rules.

 

[Apocalypse]

This kind of nonsense is why I post so much about Israel in case anyone is wondering. So many people here are just obscenely biased towards Israel.

Ido in this case is biased towards the truth, everyone in Israel is equal in front of the law.
You've never been to Israel I take it.

The declaration is not a law and Israeli policies immediately following that declaration directly contradicted many aspects of the declaration especially those concerning equality.

The declaration of independence actually has a legal value and it is unofficially considered in the courts to be a constitutional law.
Many cases in Israel have been won on the sole basis of the declaration of independence, like the one that has allowed female soldiers to become pilots in the IAF.

 

[Mira]

There is no Palestinian ethnicity, they mainly come from the Arab ethnicity, and yes saying that there is no Palestinian nation (people) is against the forum rules.

It does not matter at all if there is a Palestinian ethnicity or not. They could be originally from Mars for all I care.
All I know is that those people were born there, burried their loved ones in that land, cultivated it, planted their trees and drank its water.

I would go crazy if someone wanted to move me out of my neighborhood, let alone my town or my country.