Palestinian Refusal to Recognize Israel as the Home for the Jewish People

[Mira]

Israel has more power.

Which is why it is still there.

Ahhhh, that is the best thing you have said so far?

The strongest always wins, it's the law of the jungle.

Thanks for confirming my point.

 

[Apocalypse]

Ahhhh, that is the best thing you have said so far?

The strongest always wins, it's the law of the jungle.

Thanks for confirming my point.

No, I believe he's saying that Israel's strength is the reason for its survival and prosperity.

 

[Mira]

No, I believe he's saying that Israel's strength is the reason for its survival and prosperity.

No, he quoted my post in which I described Israel's military superiority, the AIPAC and the press and he said that Israel survived because of its power. We are both talking about muscles here.
If force is only measured with muscle power, we are talking about the law of the jungle. The stronger wins.

 

[Gardener]

how many hundreds of thousands became refugees ?

How many Arabs became refugees when Arabs attacked the new state of Israel?

A couple hundred thousand fewer than the number of Jews the Arabs subsequently tossed out of Arab land.

 

[Mika-El]

Golly ! I did re-read my post after sending it and it's a disaster. You get the gist I hope... I must run now.

Yes I did. Glad you did not edit it. Speaks for itself.

 

[Mika-El]

By the way Mika-El, you keep bringing up trauma from war. I'm not talking about trauma but a desperate need to convey the savage, sadistic and humiliating behaviour of Israeli soldiers during the invasion.

Sounds the same to me. That desperate need as you call it I get the impression is a symptom of trauma. If I had someome blow my world physically away how could I not be traumatized?

If I live in a constant state of turmoil how can I not be traumatized?

I use the word in its strictly clinical, psycho-dynamic sense-the extreme emotional reaction to a threatening stimulus that remains embedded within the psyche of the person who experienced it and remains unresolved.

I am a string believer that part of the reason there is an obstacle to peace is the fact we are not spending more time examining it from a psycho-dynamic perspective-from the perspective of people acting and reacting the way they do now because of trauma.

I subscribe to the theory that people from war conflicted regions develop not just individual maladaptive behaviours from their experiences but also feed into a group psychosis shared by others who experienced the same events.

Preliminary psychiatric work on both Israeli and Arab victims of terrorism and war have shown success albeit limited at this point, helping people move past negative maladaptive behaviour including hateful feelings of the other side. The hate lifts when the maladaptive behaviour can be remodelled to adaptive behaviour. This is done by having the person express and relive their trauma and learning to release it-simply expressing it at times is enough to release it.

It obviously has application on children. I am concerned children the next generation find a way to transcend the hatred of their adult peers so they can move on to a dialogue free of anger. I am afraid yes it may be too late with the adult generations so deeply entrenched in living in past conflicts and repeating them in the present tense with each and every word.

I sound cold, calculated and deliberate about this and intend to be. The mechanics of teaching people to talk without fighting requires the ability to distance themselves from their emotions. That can appear to be insensitive.

Now you talk of the Arab colective as not having AIPAC. I would concede in the U.S. the Arab collective does not have at this time a powerful unified lobby to express Arab interests but a lot of that comes from the inherent characteristic in the Arab world that it has never spoken in a unison manner on anything.

Its not the large uniform block of screaming bearded drones many think it is. In fact some say the only thing Arab peoples could ever agree on is their hatred of Israel or the U.S.

I am not sure if I would go that far but there is no denial using Israel as the common enemy has been a glue that has kept an otherwise fractured Arab League of nations together.

The Arab collective I would argue may not have an AIPAC but Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, they all know how to play the press and manipulate the media and UN as well as anyone.

Why would Saudi Arabia and Iran or Sudan need an AIPAC when they so easily dominate OPEC and world markets that way?

Why do they need AIPAC when they have China eating out of their hand and keep the European Union, Japan and the U.S. in line with their oil?

Israel needs an AIPAC as it has no oil. Power and influence is all relative. The reality is you have oil resources you have power and you do not need an AIPAC I would argue.

I would also argue its evident the way the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah and nations like Turkey play the press, they do not need an AIPAC at all to influence the U.S. or world politics.

In the grand scheme of things its not AIPAC that gets Israel its poower-it is U.S. military industrial complex financial interests that co-incide with Israel's interests. U.S. military financial industrial complex needs trump any lobbying AIPAC can do with Senators or Congressmen. No Senator or Congressman will turn against anyone in favour of Israel if it jeopardizes jobs and domestic financial activities.

So I would argue.

 

[Gardener]

Sounds the same to me. That desperate need as you call it I get the impression is a symptom of trauma. If I had someome blow my world physically away how could I not be traumatized?

If I live in a constant state of turmoil how can I not be traumatized?

I use the word in its strictly clinical, psycho-dynamic sense-the extreme emotional reaction to a threatening stimulus that remains embedded within the psyche of the person who experienced it and remains unresolved.

I am a string believer that part of the reason there is an obstacle to peace is the fact we are not spending more time examining it from a psycho-dynamic perspective-from the perspective of people acting and reacting the way they do now because of trauma.

I subscribe to the theory that people from war conflicted regions develop not just individual maladaptive behaviours from their experiences but also feed into a group psychosis shared by others who experienced the same events.

Preliminary psychiatric work on both Israeli and Arab victims of terrorism and war have shown success albeit limited at this point, helping people move past negative maladaptive behaviour including hateful feelings of the other side. The hate lifts when the maladaptive behaviour can be remodelled to adaptive behaviour. This is done by having the person express and relive their trauma and learning to release it-simply expressing it at times is enough to release it.

It obviously has application on children. I am concerned children the next generation find a way to transcend the hatred of their adult peers so they can move on to a dialogue free of anger. I am afraid yes it may be too late with the adult generations so deeply entrenched in living in past conflicts and repeating them in the present tense with each and every word.

I sound cold, calculated and deliberate about this and intend to be. The mechanics of teaching people to talk without fighting requires the ability to distance themselves from their emotions. That can appear to be insensitive.

Now you talk of the Arab colective as not having AIPAC. I would concede in the U.S. the Arab collective does not have at this time a powerful unified lobby to express Arab interests but a lot of that comes from the inherent characteristic in the Arab world that it has never spoken in a unison manner on anything.

Its not the large uniform block of screaming bearded drones many think it is. In fact some say the only thing Arab peoples could ever agree on is their hatred of Israel or the U.S.

I am not sure if I would go that far but there is no denial using Israel as the common enemy has been a glue that has kept an otherwise fractured Arab League of nations together.

The Arab collective I would argue may not have an AIPAC but Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, they all know how to play the press and manipulate the media and UN as well as anyone.

Why would Saudi Arabia and Iran or Sudan need an AIPAC when they so easily dominate OPEC and world markets that way?

Why do they need AIPAC when they have China eating out of their hand and keep the European Union, Japan and the U.S. in line with their oil?

Israel needs an AIPAC as it has no oil. Power and influence is all relative. The reality is you have oil resources you have power and you do not need an AIPAC I would argue.

I would also argue its evident the way the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah and nations like Turkey play the press, they do not need an AIPAC at all to influence the U.S. or world politics.

In the grand scheme of things its not AIPAC that gets Israel its poower-it is U.S. military industrial complex financial interests that co-incide with Israel's interests. U.S. military financial industrial complex needs trump any lobbying AIPAC can do with Senators or Congressmen. No Senator or Congressman will turn against anyone in favour of Israel if it jeopardizes jobs and domestic financial activities.

So I would argue.

The easiest way to understand political influence IMO, is to study the mechanisms responsible for people forming attitudes in the first place. Ideas act as packets of transmittable information, and the degree of personal identification one places in the source and the preponderance of those voicing the idea act in great degrees to determine whether or not the idea is transmitted. Some people are nearly immune to the fallacies of the argumentum ad populum, and some are so self driven by nature that they reject all that is not intuitive, but for countless others, the spread of ideas might as well be a virus they catch.

Sure, people love to talk about the conspiracies of Jews manipulating world events in their favor -- these, of course, are the classic canards used historically to demonize Jewish people. What seems lost on these conspiracists are the cumulative effects of millions upon millions of people all agreeing that this is so. Those who do outnumber actual Jews by a considerable margin, and so it all boils down to a numbers game.

If you folks were only to have established proselytization as your operating card and so increased your numbers, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, since you wouldn't be such a tiny minority whose voice is drowned out so thoroughly on the world stage.

It is raw numbers of people believing what they do that establishes who actually has the influence and who doesn't. .

 

[Mira]

Sounds the same to me. That desperate need as you call it I get the impression is a symptom of trauma. If I had someome blow my world physically away how could I not be traumatized?

If I live in a constant state of turmoil how can I not be traumatized?

I use the word in its strictly clinical, psycho-dynamic sense-the extreme emotional reaction to a threatening stimulus that remains embedded within the psyche of the person who experienced it and remains unresolved.

I am a string believer that part of the reason there is an obstacle to peace is the fact we are not spending more time examining it from a psycho-dynamic perspective-from the perspective of people acting and reacting the way they do now because of trauma.

I subscribe to the theory that people from war conflicted regions develop not just individual maladaptive behaviours from their experiences but also feed into a group psychosis shared by others who experienced the same events.

Preliminary psychiatric work on both Israeli and Arab victims of terrorism and war have shown success albeit limited at this point, helping people move past negative maladaptive behaviour including hateful feelings of the other side. The hate lifts when the maladaptive behaviour can be remodelled to adaptive behaviour. This is done by having the person express and relive their trauma and learning to release it-simply expressing it at times is enough to release it.

It obviously has application on children. I am concerned children the next generation find a way to transcend the hatred of their adult peers so they can move on to a dialogue free of anger. I am afraid yes it may be too late with the adult generations so deeply entrenched in living in past conflicts and repeating them in the present tense with each and every word.

I sound cold, calculated and deliberate about this and intend to be. The mechanics of teaching people to talk without fighting requires the ability to distance themselves from their emotions. That can appear to be insensitive.

Now you talk of the Arab colective as not having AIPAC. I would concede in the U.S. the Arab collective does not have at this time a powerful unified lobby to express Arab interests but a lot of that comes from the inherent characteristic in the Arab world that it has never spoken in a unison manner on anything.

Its not the large uniform block of screaming bearded drones many think it is. In fact some say the only thing Arab peoples could ever agree on is their hatred of Israel or the U.S.

I am not sure if I would go that far but there is no denial using Israel as the common enemy has been a glue that has kept an otherwise fractured Arab League of nations together.

The Arab collective I would argue may not have an AIPAC but Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, they all know how to play the press and manipulate the media and UN as well as anyone.

Why would Saudi Arabia and Iran or Sudan need an AIPAC when they so easily dominate OPEC and world markets that way?

Why do they need AIPAC when they have China eating out of their hand and keep the European Union, Japan and the U.S. in line with their oil?

Israel needs an AIPAC as it has no oil. Power and influence is all relative. The reality is you have oil resources you have power and you do not need an AIPAC I would argue.

I would also argue its evident the way the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah and nations like Turkey play the press, they do not need an AIPAC at all to influence the U.S. or world politics.

In the grand scheme of things its not AIPAC that gets Israel its poower-it is U.S. military industrial complex financial interests that co-incide with Israel's interests. U.S. military financial industrial complex needs trump any lobbying AIPAC can do with Senators or Congressmen. No Senator or Congressman will turn against anyone in favour of Israel if it jeopardizes jobs and domestic financial activities.

So I would argue.

I agree with the trauma part but I'll add 2 things

1- I left Lebanon 21 years ago and it took me about 10 years to be able to think in a cool-headed manner without letting my emotions to interfere. That's when I made it a priority to meet Israelis, to read Israeli authors, to see Israeli movies (and I became a fan) in order to understand the Israeli society as much as I can.
That does not mean that I could sit back quietly and watch people justify Israel's crimes. yes it does make my blood boil and this is what is going on on this forum.

2- The exact same thing can be said about the Jews. When they had been victims of discrimination and the Holocaust, the trauma didn't allow them to think logically and to measure the consequences of building a homeland in a land that was already inhabited by other people.

Coming to the AIPAC, you are right, the Arab opinion is too scattered, but remember, those who have the oil are not exactly friends of Hamas, Hizbollah etc... quite the contrary actually.

In the mid 20th cetury, there was a certain Arab Unity or at least a plan of PanArabism. Arab armies did unite to fight Israel and they lost.

As to manipulating the press and the U.N., with all due respect, that is utter tosh. A little Palywood scene here and there does not measure up to the toe-nail of what the AIPAC lobbies to accomplish including the influence on the press.

I'm sorry that I must mention my expreinece again. My job is the press, I work as a picture editor and I can assure you that the images and reports that you see in the press about the occupied territories, the war with Lebanon etc... is not even the tip of the iceburg of what is being covered on the ground.

You can browse through the archives of photo agencies without a password (you only need one to get high-rez images) do try and take a look sometime.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

The warning in Post #263 to return to the OP topic has been generally ignored. Thread closed.