Pal arabs are oppressed in Lebanon

[joergan]

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/08/17/world/international-us-lebanon-palestinian-rights.html?hp

Lebanon Law Gives Palestinians Few Civil Rights

By REUTERS
Published: August 17, 2010
Filed at 12:32 p.m. ET

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's parliament passed a law on Tuesday granting Palestinian refugees basic civil rights and rights campaigners said more needed to be done.

Palestinians have long been marginalized in Lebanon, where the 1975-90 civil war was sparked by a conflict between Palestinian and Lebanese Christian factions.

More than 425,000 registered refugees, most of them Sunni Muslims, now live in 12 overcrowded and unsanitary camps.

The latest law enables Palestinians to be engaged in entrepreneurial business, but maintains a bar on professions such as practicing medicine and the law.

"Its a step in the right direction," said Nadim Houri, head of Human Rights Watch in Lebanon. "It needs to be accompanied with administrative reforms, awareness campaigns among employers that they can hire Palestinians."

An earlier proposal to allow them to own a residential apartment was dropped, but some lawmakers said it may be addressed in a separate law.
------------------------------------

Funny how the various anti-semites prefer not to address the treatment of pal arabs/minorities in general in the arab muslim/muslim nations, but prefer to focus exclusively on Israel... :roll:

 

[kaya'08]

Re: Pal arabs are oppressed in Lebanon - but anti-semites only want to focus on Israe

As far as im aware, Arabs within Israel are treated fine.

 

[24107]

Re: Pal arabs are oppressed in Lebanon - but anti-semites only want to focus on Israe

Hopefully when a peace deal is reached, in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, they can return home.Palestinians are not Lebanese, and Lebanon is a small country with a delicate sectarian balance. I'm also aware that in general, lebanese people are compassioniate towards the Palestinians.

 

[Demon of Light]

Funny how the various anti-semites prefer not to address the treatment of pal arabs/minorities in general in the arab muslim/muslim nations, but prefer to focus exclusively on Israel... :roll:

But mommy, everyone else is mean to them! Why do I have to be nice to them!?

 

[Mira]

Ironically it was the Lebanese Christian Phalangists who refused to integrate the Palestinians into the Lebanese society, massacred and mistreated them and it's the same Christian Phalangists who Israel supported, armed and trained.

This picture of a Palestinain woman begging a Christian militia to spare her familiy's life taken in 1976 by Françoise Demulder became the icon of the Lebanese civil war.

 

[joergan]

But mommy, everyone else is mean to them! Why do I have to be nice to them!?

Because daddy imam said our country and culture suck, and our leaders are sending all of our money and the UN's money to swiss bank accounts, and the people are starving in the streets with no freedom - so we NEED to blame the jews for all our failings...

 

[joergan]

Ironically it was the Lebanese Christian Phalangists who refused to integrate the Palestinians into the Lebanese society, massacred and mistreated them and it's the same Christian Phalangists who Israel supported, armed and trained.

Ironically, lebanon was established as a christian state, and then lots of muslims started moving there en masse to take over the country. But then unlike jews in israel and christians elsewhere, only muslims are allowed to move to a country by the hundreds of thousands and take over.

Also amazingly, the history books also mention how the PLO and pals, after being expelled from Jordan and other places for trying to incite a civil war, swept into lebanon and turned south lebanon into a mini-terror state, firing artillery and mortars into israel.

But then why would demagogues have much interest in these events or in the fact that the pals are still badly treated in lebanon? Everything is ALWAYS israel's fault

 

[kaya'08]

Ironically, lebanon was established as a christian state, and then lots of muslims started moving there en masse to take over the country. But then unlike jews in israel and christians elsewhere, only muslims are allowed to move to a country by the hundreds of thousands and take over.

What are you talking about?

Because daddy imam said our country and culture suck, and our leaders are sending all of our money and the UN's money to swiss bank accounts, and the people are starving in the streets with no freedom - so we NEED to blame the jews for all our failings...

Who blamed Israel? Did they not fund Christian terrorists?

 

[Demon of Light]

Ironically, lebanon was established as a christian state, and then lots of muslims started moving there en masse to take over the country. But then unlike jews in israel and christians elsewhere, only muslims are allowed to move to a country by the hundreds of thousands and take over.

If Muslims had moved there en masse Christians would be a much smaller portion of the population then they are currently. The reason Christians are now a minority when they were a majority is simply demographics. Birth rates, emigration, and so on explain their demographic loss. If Muslims moving en masse is referring to the Palestinians then that was not by choice, but rather by Israeli force.

Also amazingly, the history books also mention how the PLO and pals, after being expelled from Jordan and other places for trying to incite a civil war, swept into lebanon and turned south lebanon into a mini-terror state, firing artillery and mortars into israel.

But then why would demagogues have much interest in these events or in the fact that the pals are still badly treated in lebanon? Everything is ALWAYS israel's fault

Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon? It certainly isn't because they'd rather live there. That the PLO exists is a direct result of Israeli action so saying it has nothing to do with Israel is just plain wrong.

 

[Tashah]

Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon? It certainly isn't because they'd rather live there. That the PLO exists is a direct result of Israeli action so saying it has nothing to do with Israel is just plain wrong.

The article is addressing NOW. Today. Not things that transpired decades ago. Israel had nothing to do with this...

Lebanese artillery shelling the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in 2007

The aftermath in Nahr al-Bared. It looks like Berlin circa 1945 for chrissake

Virtually every international humanitarian agency decries the horrible conditions within Lebanon's 12 Palestinian camps. Things are progressively getting worse.

 

[Mira]

The article is addressing NOW. Today. Not things that transpired decades ago. Israel had nothing to do with this...

Lebanese artillery shelling the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in 2007

The aftermath in Nahr al-Bared. It looks like Berlin circa 1945 for chrissake

Virtually every international humanitarian agency decries the horrible conditions within Lebanon's 12 Palestinian camps. Things are progressively getting worse.

Except that the battle of Nahr El Bared was between the Lebanese Army and the radical group Fath Al-Islam who declared that the route to Jerusalem passes through Lebanon and they set base in that camp in the North.

In short the Lebanese government is damned when it fights a radical group that sets camp in Lebanon in order to attack Israel and damned if it doesn't.

 

[Tashah]

In short the Lebanese government is damned when it fights a radical group that sets camp in Lebanon in order to attack Israel and damned if it doesn't.

Then remember this the next time the IDF strikes Hamas... another radical group that attacks Israel.

 

[Mira]

Then remember this the next time the IDF strikes Hamas... another radical group that attacks Israel.

You're talking as if I support Hamas or Hizballa

 

[Tashah]

You're talking as if I support Hamas or Hizballa

Not at all Mira. Just pointing out what happens when a military is forced to engage a terrorist force in an urban setting. It isn't pretty. Neither for the IDF nor for the Lebanese Army. Fallujah is another exemplar of this consequence.

 

[Mira]

If Muslims had moved there en masse Christians would be a much smaller portion of the population then they are currently. The reason Christians are now a minority when they were a majority is simply demographics. Birth rates, emigration, and so on explain their demographic loss. If Muslims moving en masse is referring to the Palestinians then that was not by choice, but rather by Israeli force.



Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon? It certainly isn't because they'd rather live there. That the PLO exists is a direct result of Israeli action so saying it has nothing to do with Israel is just plain wrong.

Actually the Christian Maronites are originally from Syria.
Besides that, there has been no official census since 1932 so we really don't know much about the demographics of Lebanon. Most of the inhabitants are secular anyway especially the Muslims.

 

[Mira]

Not at all Mira. Just pointing out what happens when a military is forced to engage a terrorist force in an urban setting. It isn't pretty. Neither for the IDF nor for the Lebanese Army. Fallujah is another exemplar of this consequence.

You cannot compare the 2 Tashah.
Nahr El-Bared is a refugee camp where this radical group linked to Al Qaida set camp.
Hamas members are from Gaza and the movement has been elected by the Gazawis. The Palestinians of Gaza are on their land, they are not guests.

The Lebanese army got rid of the radical foreign group in a refugee camp.

See the difference ?

 

[Tashah]

You cannot compare the 2 Tashah.
Nahr El-Bared is a refugee camp where this radical group linked to Al Qaida set camp.
Hamas members are from Gaza and the movement has been elected by the Gazawis. The Palestinians of Gaza are on their land, they are not guests.

The Lebanese army got rid of the radical foreign group in a refugee camp.

See the difference ?

I realize the difference. But you're being coy and dancing around what happens when fighting a terrorist force in an urban setting which is what my post addressed.

Addressing the OP, Palestinians have been there for generations and are still on the bottom rung of the Lebanese social ladder. Conditions within the camps there are deplorable. These camps make Gaza look like Dubai.

 

[Mira]

I realize the difference. But you're being coy and dancing around what happens when fighting a terrorist force in an urban setting which is what my post addressed.

Addressing the OP, Palestinians have been there for generations and are still on the bottom rung of the Lebanese social ladder. Conditions within the camps there are deplorable. These camps make Gaza look like Dubai.

If you realise the difference, then why are you still comparing Nahr El-Bared to Gaza and thus changing the subject of the OP ?

I explained that the reason why the Palestinians were never accepted in Lebanon is because the Christians refused to integrate about 400,000 Muslims into a country of about 3 million with such a fragile demographic balance.

It is very recent that the Muslim Prime Minister has more power than the Christian President and only now one small positive step has been taken without angering the Christian community much.

In May/June when I was there, I went to listen to Noam Chomsky speak at the UNESCO. At some point he said that it is shame that the Palestinians in Lebanon live in open-air prisons. The entire hall packed with I don't know how many thousand people, applauded loudly. That says something about the Lebanese attitide toward the Palestinains in the camps but unfortunately Lebanon is still too fragile politically to be able to behave as a "normal" counrty.

 

[Tashah]

I explained that the reason why the Palestinians were never accepted in Lebanon is because the Christians refused to integrate about 400,000 Muslims into a country of about 3 million with such a fragile demographic balance.

Mira... wake up. That was decades ago. You're engaging in exactly what you always accuse the "Israeli apologists" of engaging in... playing the cheerleader role and denying a problem.

The Palestinians in Lebanon are gonna be there for God knows how long. Despite the noble pronouncements and the gnashing of teeth, do you really think either the Fatah or Hamas governments want them back any time soon? Think of the monumental problems such an influx would create. Food, clothing, shelter, employment. An additional huge drain on government solvency and finite resources. Do you really think Palestine could absorb these people without suffering severe economic and social penalties?

Wake up.

 

[Mira]

Mira... wake up. That was decades ago. You're engaging in exactly what you always accuse the "Israeli apologists" of engaging in... playing the cheerleader role and denying a problem.

The Palestinians in Lebanon are gonna be there for God knows how long. Despite the noble pronouncements and the gnashing of teeth, do you really think either the Fatah or Hamas governments want them back any time soon? Think of the monumental problems such an influx would create. Food, clothing, shelter, employment. An additional huge drain on government solvency and finite resources. Do you really think Palestine could absorb these people without suffering severe economic and social penalties?

Wake up.

Tashah, I am all for integrating the Palestinians into the Lebanese society. You're right, they're not going anywhere even though not all of them are from Gaza and the West Bank but from what is now Israel proper. I agree, it ain't gonna happen, they're staying. I'm not talking about what I prefer, I'm saying how things are.

Tensions between the communities are still high in Lebanon. The situation is still very fragile. What can the Lebanese government do ? give the Palestinains citizenships, integrate them into the Lebanese society and ignite a civil war with the Christians ?

We need to breathe Tashah.

 

[donsutherland1]

The Palestinians in Lebanon are gonna be there for God knows how long. Despite the noble pronouncements and the gnashing of teeth, do you really think either the Fatah or Hamas governments want them back any time soon? Think of the monumental problems such an influx would create. Food, clothing, shelter, employment. An additional huge drain on government solvency and finite resources. Do you really think Palestine could absorb these people without suffering severe economic and social penalties?

I believe this touches a crucial aspect of the refugee issue. Even if all Palestinian refugees and their descendants are granted the opportunity to move to the West Bank and Gaza Strip under a peace agreement, the Palestinian state will very likely need a lengthy period of transition to make that possible, if it is willing to allow for open immigration for the Palestinian diaspora.

In addition, many descendants of the 1948 refugees were born in their respective host countries. Difficult as life has been for them there, they may well prefer to remain there than move into a new country and new culture with which they might not be entirely familiar. In terms of broader Arab-Israeli peace, some accommodation by the host countries to integrate Palestian refugees and their descendants who choose to remain there will be necessary, as will targeted financial assistance to facilitate that outcome.

 

[kaya'08]

Mira, Lebanon's fragility is of there own making.
Instead of creating a system based on "ethnic classes", why not work towards a Democracy where all people, regardless of age, sex, religion and ethnicity, are equal under the law?

If Lebanon blows up into another civil war i will have no sympathy for them.

 

[Mira]

I believe this touches a crucial aspect of the refugee issue. Even if all Palestinian refugees and their descendants are granted the opportunity to move to the West Bank and Gaza Strip under a peace agreement, the Palestinian state will very likely need a lengthy period of transition to make that possible, if it is willing to allow for open immigration for the Palestinian diaspora.

In addition, many descendants of the 1948 refugees were born in their respective host countries. Difficult as life has been for them there, they may well prefer to remain there than move into a new country and new culture with which they might not be entirely familiar. In terms of broader Arab-Israeli peace, some accommodation by the host countries to integrate Palestian refugees and their descendants who choose to remain there will be necessary, as will targeted financial assistance to facilitate that outcome.

Don, they are born in the camps and raised in the camps. believe me it won't be a great cultural shock to move from Ain El-Hilweh to Gaza. The problem is that their fathers or grandfathers are not necessarily from Gaza or the West Bank, they still dream of going back to the town and villages of their origin which are now Israeli towns and villages. It's not going to happen, not now, not later.

The Palestinian refugees are sort of on hold in Lebanon. Where to start, what to deal with, what are the priorities. Believe me, you wouldn't want to be a Lebanese PM :shock:

 

[Mira]

Mira, Lebanon's fragility is of there own making.
Instead of creating a system based on "ethnic classes", why not work towards a Democracy where all people, regardless of age, sex, religion and ethnicity, are equal under the law?

If Lebanon blows up into another civil war i will have no sympathy for them.

Hold your horses Kaya before saying something so harsh and hurtful.
The Lebanese conflict is much, much complicated than that and it dates back to the Otoman era and then the French Mandate.

The lebanese youth is saying exactly the same thing as you are, they want none of that "difference" but it's going to take time.

 

[kaya'08]

Hold your horses Kaya before saying something so harsh and hurtful.
The Lebanese conflict is much, much complicated than that and it dates back to the Otoman era and then the French Mandate.

The lebanese youth is saying exactly the same thing as you are, they want none of that "difference" but it's going to take time.

Well im sorry it hurt you but isn't it the truth? I mean, what has Hariri done, for example, to contribute in changing this system?