Pal arabs are oppressed in Lebanon

[Gardener]

And you? If you were half the liberal that you claim to be, you would always speak out on the ills right under your nose.

Well, she did say "left wing" rather than liberal.

The global left stands opposed to liberalism, as most of the actual liberals are considered as moderates these days. I don't think I can recal Mira ever approaching an argument from the perspective of upholding liberal values.

 

[Mira]

I have always supported an independent Palestinian state. Always. I have always supported direct and comprehensive settlement negotiations. Always. I have always opposed the settlements. Always. I have always applauded the Palestinians when they made good decisions. Always. I have always spoken up for oppressed Muslim women. Always.

And you? If you were half the liberal that you claim to be, you would always speak out on the ills right under your nose.

Do you have the slightest idea who I am and what my socio/political activities in real life are ?

 

[Mira]

I think I understand your point and it is valid one. the point I tried to make that you may have missed is not about the integration of Palestianians into Lebaneese society, although that might be admirable. However, nations like Saudi Arabia could have made some contributions to make the living conditions of their fellow people more comfortable. They could have at least allowed a society within a society somewhat like the Jewish experience in Ghettos in Europe for so many years.

Yes, that I agree, rich Arab states could have helped to make the living conditions better in the camps. The problem in Lebanon is that any move to make the camps look more permanent engage a political message and divided as Lebanon is, it has always been a delicate issue.

 

[Gardener]

Do you have the slightest idea who I am and what my socio/political activities in real life are ?

You are somebody who tries to draw attention to yourself as often as you can, and you do so in order to try to establish some sort of special cred that you possess and you alone. Based upon this tactic, who you might be in reality and whatever political agenda you are pursuing is less important than the nature of your attempted influence -- at least in terms of this forum.

 

[alexa]

Do you have the slightest idea who I am

Well for one thing you are a descendent of Armenian Genocide survivors.

 

[Mira]

By the way Tashah, who speaks about racism against Arabs within the Israeli society ? who speaks about the racism within the Jewish society between Ahkenazis and Sefaradis ? who speaks about the rights of Orthodox Jewish women? who speaks about the corruption of certain Israeli politicians ?

Is Israel a model country ? no it's not. Does anyone start threads about Israel's societal problems ? nope.

 

[Mira]

Well for one thing you are a descendent of Armenian Genocide survivors.

Yeah but the Armenians are Christians and that's why we had absolutely no trouble whatsoever to be welcomed in Lebanon , nantionalised and integrated into the society. No problem at all.

 

[Demon of Light]

Your sudden affection for the Palestinian refugees in heartwarming. Wish you would feel the same about the Palestinians who are refugees in their own country Palestine and wish you would also feel some remorse for making the people of Nahr El Bared, Shatila, Ain EL Hilweh, Burj Al Barajneh etc... refugees.

As far as the pro-Israeli side is concerned the Palestinians got what was coming to them. The only reason any of them care about Palestinians in Lebanon is because it helps to draw attention away from Israel's abuses and can be used to cast aspersions on Israel's enemies.

Tashah posted an appropriate example. The Lebanese Army shelled that camp for nearly three weeks and then left it a total shambles.

It isn't an appropriate example nor was the comparison to Gaza legitimate. Most of the people evacuated to other camps and thus very few civilian casualties resulted. One other notable fact of the conflict is the Lebanese army's incredible difficult combating the organization, which would contribute to the amount of damage caused to the camp.

You want a glimpse of the other 11 Lebanese major camps?

They look to me like your typical third world slum. Hardly comfortable conditions, but certainly not unique.

Christian Phalangists? No Lebanese government has ever lifted a finger for the camp Palestinians.

Do you know anything about the structure of the Lebanese government?

I posted this just on 8/8...



Deplorable conditions under occupation and clearly the fault of the settlers.

Your turn now. You show me where a pro-Palestinian deplores the conditions suffered by the people of Sderot.

Sderot is subject to occasional border fire and especially suffers during periods of escalation, but comparing their situation to even that of the high-crime neighborhoods of any U.S. city is an insult let alone the situation in a Palestinian refugee camp. I can tell you right now there are people living in certain American cities that would actually prefer Sderot. At least they all have bomb shelters.

 

[Mira]

Sderot is subject to occasional border fire and especially suffers during periods of escalation, but comparing their situation to even that of the high-crime neighborhoods of any U.S. city is an insult let alone the situation in a Palestinian refugee camp. I can tell you right now there are people living in certain American cities that would actually prefer Sderot. At least they all have bomb shelters.

I have a problem with this sentence DOLight. It is NOT an acceptable living condition for civilians to live under the threat of being shelled at any minute, not in Sderot, not anywhere else in the world.
In Lebanon we say "kol wahad hammo ad halo" which means "each one has a worry that fits his size".

edit: I am 2000% sure you agree that both situations Sderot or high-crime neighborhood unacceptable.

 

[Tashah]

I said THREAD not post

You intimated that I never criticize Israel which is untrue. I showed you an example from just this month (different thread) where I said that Hebron is a rotten hellhole and that the settlers cause most of the problems there. I called a spade a spade.

Speaking of problems, my own thoughts...

There are two main axis of power in the Middle East:

The Iran axis - Iran/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas
The US axis - United States/Egypt/Jordan/Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Gulf States/Israel/PA

Both axis are vying for the states of Iraq and Lebanon. Hezbollah is the military power in Lebanon and is acquiring political power. Unless Hezbollah is confronted internally, Lebanon is going to find herself increasingly enmeshed in the Iran power axis. The bad news is that neither Hezbollah nor the Iran axis will surrender their gains in Lebanon without a bloody fight and a possible re-occupation by Syria.

 

[Mira]

You intimated that I never criticize Israel which is untrue. I showed you an example from just this month (different thread) where I said that Hebron is a rotten hellhole and that the settlers cause most of the problems there. I called a spade a spade.

Speaking of problems, my own thoughts...

There are two main axis of power in the Middle East:

The Iran axis - Iran/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas
The US axis - United States/Egypt/Jordan/Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Gulf States/Israel/PA

Both axis are vying for the states of Iraq and Lebanon. Hezbollah is the military power in Lebanon and is acquiring political power. Unless Hezbollah is confronted internally, Lebanon is going to find herself increasingly enmeshed in the Iran power axis. The bad news is that neither Hezbollah nor the Iran axis will surrender their gains in Lebanon without a bloody fight and a possible re-occupation by Syria.

I believe that until Iran loses its power and therefore its support of Hizbollah, Lebanon is in trouble. Lebanon CANNOT fix the problem with Hizbollah internally.

I'm not too excited about the US/ Saudi etc... axis either (which is the axis of the current government)

Makes me roll my eyes when someone says I'm supporting the Lebanese government or politicians.

edit: no matter what, the problem of the Palestinian refugees remains, independent from any axis. Demographically it is impossible for Lebanon to accept more than 400,000 Muslim Palestinains.
The Christians will start a new civil war. 1975 all over again.

 

[Tashah]

By the way Tashah, who speaks about racism against Arabs within the Israeli society? who speaks about the racism within the Jewish society between Ahkenazis and Sefaradis? who speaks about the rights of Orthodox Jewish women? who speaks about the corruption of certain Israeli politicians?

Israel has a robust and free press. One can find articles on these topics all the time along with plenty of Israeli self-criticism. Our press also exposes corruption, criticizes the IDF, criticizes settlements, and scrutinizes conditions within the West Bank. It's all there Mira. Indeed, quite a bit of the negative Israel articles posted right in this forum originate in the Israeli press.

The rights of Jewish Orthodox women They have the exact same rights that I enjoy.

Is Israel a model country ? no it's not.

Never pretended Israel was a perfect country. I admit she has blemishes just like every country. Lebanon also has her blemishes.

Does anyone start threads about Israel's societal problems ? nope.

Get real Mira. Half of this forum is comprised of less than flattering Israel threads.

 

[Mira]

Israel has a robust and free press. One can find articles on these topics all the time along with plenty of Israeli self-criticism. Our press also exposes corruption, criticizes the IDF, criticizes settlements, and scrutinizes conditions within the West Bank. It's all there Mira. Indeed, quite a bit of the negative Israel articles posted right in this forum originate in the Israeli press.

I'm talking about the posters on DP.
Yes I admire your press alot and read your most unappreciated paper online daily.
In Lebanon the press is quite free as well compared to other Arab countries.

The rights of Jewish Orthodox women They have the exact same rights that I enjoy.

Being covered from head to toe dragging around 8 children is not exactly my idea of a free woman.

Never pretended Israel was a perfect country. I admit she has blemishes just like every country. Lebanon also has her blemishes.

never said the contrary .

Get real Mira. Half of this forum is comprised of less than flattering Israel threads.

And ....% of this forum is full of Arab and Muslim bashing threads. many posters have made it their specialty, one was even worried that he might take action.
edit: I'm talking about pro-Israelis, how many of them have started threads criticising Israel ? That's what Shayah expects me to do, start threads to criticise lebanon and my answer was hat there are enough of hem already.

 

[Tashah]

I believe that until Iran loses its power and therefore its support of Hizbollah, Lebanon is in trouble. Lebanon CANNOT fix the problem with Hizbollah internally.

I agree. Lebanon is in deep trouble. Either via an internal civil war, or by being dragged by Hezbollah into another war with Israel. A similar civil war would happen with a one-state I/P solution.

edit: no matter what, the problem of the Palestinian refugees remains, independent from any axis. Demographically it is impossible for Lebanon to accept more than 400,000 Muslim Palestinains.

Then you must certainly appreciate why it is also demographically impossible for Israel to accept multi-generations of Palestinian refugees.

 

[Mira]

I agree. Lebanon is in deep trouble. Either via an internal civil war, or by being dragged by Hezbollah into another war with Israel. A similar civil war would happen with a one-state I/P solution.


Then you must certainly appreciate why it is also demographically impossible for Israel to accept multi-generations of Palestinian refugees.

I think I haven't made myself clear. The Christians want to keep the demographic balance. Contrary to what people think, there are more seculars among the Moslems in Lebanon than among Christians. It is understandable, they are a minority in the Middle East and they want to survive.

Understanding their perspective does not mean that I see things that way. I prefer a secular Lebanon without any worries of who is from which religion. I personally don't care if anyone is Moslem, Christian, Jewish or Druze as long as they are LEBANESE.

 

[Tashah]

Yes I admire your press alot and read your most unappreciated paper online daily.

Undoubtedly you refer to the leftist Ha'aretz daily.

In Lebanon the press is quite free as well compared to other Arab countries.

I agree.

Being covered from head to toe dragging around 8 children is not exactly my idea of a free woman.

That is their personal choice. Nothing prevents them from becoming secularized Israeli women. In fact, most women in Israel are secular inclined.

And ....% of this forum is full of Arab and Muslim bashing threads. many posters have made it their specialty, one was even worried that he might take action.

And I advised him to temporarily stop posting here and seek counseling. I can do no more.

But I agree wholeheartedly on the bashing problem. It ruins this forum and exacerbates animosities. The same negativity happens with the endless re-hashing of history over and over and over again ad-nauseum.

 

[Mira]

Undoubtedly you refer to the leftist Ha'aretz daily.


I agree.


That is their personal choice. Nothing prevents them from becoming secularized Israeli women. In fact, most women in Israel are secular inclined.


And I advised him to temporarily stop posting here and seek counseling. I can do no more.

But I agree wholeheartedly on the bashing problem. It ruins this forum and exacerbates animosities. The same negativity happens with the endless re-hashing of history over and over and over again ad-nauseum.

Are you so sure about the Orthodox Jewish women having the choice of becoming secular ? I'm not so sure, but let's not change the subject.

As for the rest of the post, I thank you for your constructive attitude.

 

[joergan]

As far as the pro-Israeli side is concerned the Palestinians got what was coming to them. The only reason any of them care about Palestinians in Lebanon is because it helps to draw attention away from Israel's abuses and can be used to cast aspersions on Israel's enemies.

As far as the pro-arab side is concerned, the pals got what's coming to them. The only reason any of them care about Palestinians in israel is because it helps to draw attention away from the arab world's abuses of them and can be used to cast aspersions on Israel.

One other notable fact of the conflict is the Lebanese army's incredible difficult combating the organization, which would contribute to the amount of damage caused to the camp.

Of course, it is always a challenge for other armies to operate without civilian casualties, only the IDF and US army is ever culpable when civilians are killed.

Sderot is subject to occasional border fire

Thousands of rockets and mortars is occasional? Not sure where you live, but i don't recall receiving rockets landing on my block any time recently.

and especially suffers during periods of escalation, but comparing their situation to even that of the high-crime neighborhoods of any U.S. city

Why the forum even allows an obvious flame-bait idiocy like this is unfathomable to me. It's as if the forum admins are waiting for people to take the bait and start a flame war. Just such an unbelievably stupid statement it cannot even be responded to except with a flame.

I've also noticed it used on other forums, and it seems to be a manufactured talking point idiocy of the anti-israel, anti-semite crowd, though the forum admins elsewhere usually remove the comment after catching it.

 

[Tashah]

Are you so sure about the Orthodox Jewish women having the choice of becoming secular? I'm not so sure, but let's not change the subject.

Orthodox Judaism is not slavery. Anyone can leave the Orthodox fold if they so desire.

Most Orthodox women follow the Tznius (modesty) portion of Halacha. Married women must cover their hair with a scarf. Blouses cannot reveal cleavage and the arms should be covered to the elbow. Pants can be worn if engaged in agriculture, but skirts and dresses are preferred. Some wear skirts to the ankle, but the law only requires that the knees be covered when seated. Orthodox women will never wear open-toe shoes.

 

[Tashah]

Although the Orthodox are exempt from IDF military duty, some do elect to serve.

But how she plans on being effective in that khaki sack is beyond me.

The gal behind her is pondering the exact same thing :2razz:

 

[Mira]

Orthodox Judaism is not slavery. Anyone can leave the Orthodox fold if they so desire.

Most Orthodox women follow the Tznius (modesty) portion of Halacha. Married women must cover their hair with a scarf. Blouses cannot reveal cleavage and the arms should be covered to the elbow. Pants can be worn if engaged in agriculture, but skirts and dresses are preferred. Some wear skirts to the ankle, but the law only requires that the knees be covered when seated. Orthodox women will never wear open-toe shoes.

We're really changing the subject of the thread here Tashah and I'd like to talk with you about this some time.
I learned a lot about Jewish women through my interest in Fanny Neuda's book of prayers for Jewish women.
Strange coming from an atheist but the woman who has been by my side since when I was a uni student until this day and who I consider to be my adoptive mum or older sister is a very religious Jewish woman. I learned a lot from her and she's the person who introduced me to Neuda's writings.

 

[Gardener]

edit: I'm talking about pro-Israelis, how many of them have started threads criticising Israel ? That's what Shayah expects me to do, start threads to criticise lebanon and my answer was hat there are enough of hem already.

That's odd. I don't recall any poster indulging in rhetoric so disgustingly ugly as to call lebanon a "cancer" or a "monster" as has been directed at the Jewish state.

The hypocrisy of those who do indulge in such ranting pointing fingers at others is almost laughable.

 

[Demon of Light]

I have a problem with this sentence DOLight. It is NOT an acceptable living condition for civilians to live under the threat of being shelled at any minute, not in Sderot, not anywhere else in the world.
In Lebanon we say "kol wahad hammo ad halo" which means "each one has a worry that fits his size".

edit: I am 2000% sure you agree that both situations Sderot or high-crime neighborhood unacceptable.

Violence anywhere is unacceptable, that does not mean all areas where violence occurs are equally bad.

This is Sderot:

Here is Englewood, Chicago a neighborhood with a very high crime rate:

Now we look at Khan Yunis:

Consider the images of the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and let's consider which of these places is a better place to live. Honestly, I would prefer Sderot. At least when there is violence I'll have a safe place to hide and when there isn't, meaning the vast majority of the time, it has downright idyllic living conditions.

As far as the pro-arab side is concerned, the pals got what's coming to them. The only reason any of them care about Palestinians in israel is because it helps to draw attention away from the arab world's abuses of them and can be used to cast aspersions on Israel.

Even if one assumed I was from the "pro-arab" side that is not even a legitimate switch. Many would say the Palestinians did not deserve the treatment they have received let alone only caring because they can use it to attack Israel. With the pro-Israeli side you have many who show very little concern of remorse for Palestinians when it comes to Israel, but will show concern when it is in another country.

Of course, it is always a challenge for other armies to operate without civilian casualties, only the IDF and US army is ever culpable when civilians are killed.

It is not about culpability, but whether it is a fair comparison to Gaza. Given that the level of civilian casualties in Lebanon was much lower it is not a fair comparison.

Thousands of rockets and mortars is occasional? Not sure where you live, but i don't recall receiving rockets landing on my block any time recently.

Do you know the meaning of the word occasional? It does not mean something that is common anywhere, but something that is infrequent or unsustained. If you look you will see the figure for thousands of rockets and mortars is largely during periods of major warfare and as such includes more tightly compacted bursts of attacks. Also, even then only a certain amount hit any populated area, let alone Sderot specifically, this is especially the case when there is not any major battle going on.

Why the forum even allows an obvious flame-bait idiocy like this is unfathomable to me. It's as if the forum admins are waiting for people to take the bait and start a flame war. Just such an unbelievably stupid statement it cannot even be responded to except with a flame.

People who think Israel has unique suffering that is beyond what anyone else experiences might be offended, but that is to be expected. The same people get offended at the suggestion Israel acts in anything but self-defense.

 

[Mira]

Violence anywhere is unacceptable, that does not mean all areas where violence occurs are equally bad.

Agreed, that's why I said each one has a worry that fits his size.

For some people having financial problems means not to be able to afford holidays in Acapulco , for others it means not to be able to pay rent and for some others it means to have to live on welfare.