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Paddling in school?

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sebastiansdreams

Contrarian said:
Again you show how small a thinker you are. I didn't say anything more than remove the misfits from the schools where those who have a desire to learn attend. Pull their stupid a*ses out and put them in Boot Camp style schools where they are treated differently. You don't have to beat someone to get their attention. "Reform School" is still school, but with aggressive teachers.

And lets not get back to that arguement about teachers getting paid close to nothing because we've been through it a few times and the arguement doesn't hold water.
I'm sorry, I deal with the tangible and things I can get my head around. Not everyone can be you Contrarian :2grouphug
Pull their stupid a*ses out and put them in Boot Camp style schools where they are treated differently. You don't have to beat someone to get their attention. "Reform School" is still school, but with aggressive teachers.
But that is not an option for the government. That must be done at a parent's discretion... and what if mommy doesn't think little Billy is really that bad? It's a nice thought, but the government can't make that happen, at least not in Tennessee.

Back to the argument of teacher pay? I don't remember ever having that argument. But, I know you believe that knoweldge is one of the most important things a person can have. And if teachers intilling knowledge, the most important thing a person can have, then why is playing baseball worth millions of dollars?
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
Oh really? Then how come Bush and his Republican cronies called 51% a MANDATE? By those standards 56% is a LANDSLIDE.
Because Bush was wrong. And so are you if thinking 56% is a clear concensus.
 

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sebastiansdreams said:
But that is not an option for the government. That must be done at a parent's discretion... and what if mommy doesn't think little Billy is really that bad? It's a nice thought, but the government can't make that happen, at least not in Tennessee.

Not necessarily the case. There are many things students can do to be expelled.

Back to the argument of teacher pay? I don't remember ever having that argument. But, I know you believe that knoweldge is one of the most important things a person can have. And if teachers intilling knowledge, the most important thing a person can have, then why is playing baseball worth millions of dollars?[/QUOTE]

It's called the free market. Teachers are NOT paid that badly. And your argument about baseball players ignores one key fact. Those 1000 odd baseball players are the best athletes at what they do in the country. If you take the 1000 highest paid intellectuals in the country (professors, writers, business owners), each of the 1000 in those subsets likely make millions, although they may not be comparable amounts. There are millions of teachers in this country. If you look at the salaries of those who play baseball in Minor League A teams, their salaries are probably comparable (most likely less, and with no benefits or job security) to teachers.
 
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sebastiansdreams

RightatNYU said:
Not necessarily the case. There are many things students can do to be expelled.

Okay, but what of the child? If the child is expelled into the hands of a parent that "just doesn't feel it's their place to discipline" then what does that solve for the child? I know they are breaking the rules, but many of these children are much more a victim of consequence than they are genuinly malicious. If the parent is doing a horrible job with disciplining a child, what could be worse than sending the child to be with them every day and getting no positive outside influence.

It's called the free market. Teachers are NOT paid that badly. And your argument about baseball players ignores one key fact. Those 1000 odd baseball players are the best athletes at what they do in the country. If you take the 1000 highest paid intellectuals in the country (professors, writers, business owners), each of the 1000 in those subsets likely make millions, although they may not be comparable amounts. There are millions of teachers in this country. If you look at the salaries of those who play baseball in Minor League A teams, their salaries are probably comparable (most likely less, and with no benefits or job security) to teachers.
Look, I am not ignoring that these athletes are the top 1000 athletes in the country. That is fine. The point is, they play baseball. They provide entertainment. And that's it. And it is not the intellectuals I am concerned with. The intellectuals get payed plenty. Teaching knowledge and being an intellectual are not the same. Teachers are providing necessary knowledge and shaping the foundation of our (everyone in the country's) children. It is just more practical that we pay the more important, more fundamental workers with more money than we pay our entertainers.
 

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how the world could any body afford to pay all the teachers more then they're being paid now?
 
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sebastiansdreams

Arch Enemy said:
how the world could any body afford to pay all the teachers more then they're being paid now?
Firstly, by taking the billions of dollars we fork out to actors and athletes and putting them into a fund to better pay our teachers.
 

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sebastiansdreams said:
Because Bush was wrong. And so are you if thinking 56% is a clear concensus.
You know there's a reason that beating up kids in school is illegal in 28 States, because it's barbaric!

Is it a surprise that Texas is the #1 child beating state? Is it a shocker that the top 10 states that paddle are all red states?

Why is it that a disporportionate amount of the beatings are against black students?
Arguments Against Corporal Punishment

1. It perpetuates a cycle of child abuse. It teaches children to hit someone smaller and weaker when angry.
2. Injuries occur. Bruises are common. Broken bones are not unusual. Children's deaths have occurred in the U.S. due to school corporal punishment.
3. Corporal punishment is used much more often on poor children, minorities, children with disabilities, and boys.
4. Schools are the only institutions in America in which striking another person is legally sanctioned. It is not allowed in prisons, in the military or in mental hospitals.
5. Educators and school boards are sometimes sued when corporal punishment is used in their schools.
6. Schools that use corporal punishment often have poorer academic achievement, more vandalism, truancy, pupil violence and higher drop out rates.
7. Corporal punishment is often not used as a last resort. It is often the first resort for minor misbehaviors.
8. Many alternatives to corporal punishment have proven their worth. Alternatives teach children to be self-disciplined rather than cooperative only because of fear.

Alternatives to corporal punishment include emphasizing positive behaviors of students, realistic rules consistently enforced, instruction that reaches all students, conferences with students for planning acceptable behavior, parent/teacher conferences about student behavior, use of staff such as school psychologists and counselors, detentions, in-school suspension and Saturday school.
 

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sebastiansdreams said:
Firstly, by taking the billions of dollars we fork out to actors and athletes and putting them into a fund to better pay our teachers.
How about by not cutting taxes to the super rich and instead using that money to pay teachers?
 
S

sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
How about by not cutting taxes to the super rich and instead using that money to pay teachers?
I completely agree. That is also an incredible necessity. But then again, isn't that kinda what I said?
 

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Yeah I agree as well, educators need a nice payment. My school has had problems with finding teachers (since we've had a record for the most fights in our area.. 2 years ago it was around 112 fights with only 180 school days) maybe better payment will bring the best teachers to actually do their job.

Most teachers I've had were nothing more than a push-over, they didn't care about the education we got they just want to make sure we knew enough to pass the exam.

Which brings me to my next point, the grade system should be abolished.
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
You know there's a reason that beating up kids in school is illegal in 28 States, because it's barbaric!

Is it a surprise that Texas is the #1 child beating state? Is it a shocker that the top 10 states that paddle are all red states?

Why is it that a disporportionate amount of the beatings are against black students?
I think a paddling and beating up a child and give them a paddling are slightly different. And what does red states have to do with anything? Are you under the impression that I'm a republican?
And maybe because it was those students who were doing more things deserving paddlings? I mean just because a student is one race or another does not mean that A) he/she is more likely to do something wrong or B) he/she is more likely to be punished more severly than another child. I think that you can make it into a race issue if you like, but there is no reason to believe that the reason these children are getting paddled is because they are black.
All said and done, I don't think paddling is an effective means of punishment from an administrator. I think that in the home life it can be a very effective means of punishment if enforced correctly, but these rules do not apply for the classroom. However, that being said, if we are not going to paddle, we do need to come up with some more effective means of punishment than those that are in place.
 

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sebastiansdreams said:
Okay, but what of the child? If the child is expelled into the hands of a parent that "just doesn't feel it's their place to discipline" then what does that solve for the child? I know they are breaking the rules, but many of these children are much more a victim of consequence than they are genuinly malicious. If the parent is doing a horrible job with disciplining a child, what could be worse than sending the child to be with them every day and getting no positive outside influence.

What about the child? If the child is doing something that is so terrible that it would warrant a paddling or expulsion, chances are that child has problems. What that child needs is special attention. HOWEVER, before that child's right to special attention comes the other children's right to have a decent education. Leaving kids who are trouble in a school system is not fair to the other kids nor right.


Look, I am not ignoring that these athletes are the top 1000 athletes in the country. That is fine. The point is, they play baseball. They provide entertainment. And that's it. And it is not the intellectuals I am concerned with. The intellectuals get payed plenty. Teaching knowledge and being an intellectual are not the same. Teachers are providing necessary knowledge and shaping the foundation of our (everyone in the country's) children. It is just more practical that we pay the more important, more fundamental workers with more money than we pay our entertainers.

"WE" don't pay them anything. Their salary is decided by the market, which is supported by the millions of people who pay to go see them play each year. It's easy to hate on athletes or movie stars for making so much money when to many, they do so little. But the fact is, the government doesn't pay them ****. To suggest that we "reduce" their pay (besides the fact that you don't specify how this would be done) goes against everything that a free society stands for.

Besides that, I have professors who make millions of dollars each year. Do they deserve it? Yes. I have had terrible teachers who made 25 thousand a year. Did they deserve it? Yes. You're right, all the teachers in this nation combine to have a much greater responsibility than all the baseball players. But if you added up the salaries of every teacher in this country....

Baseball players reach millions each year, and do their own good in the world. The best teacher I ever had in high school was incredible, but he only reached about 50 kids a year. And he got a thousand dollars per kid. That's not so bad.
 

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sebastiansdreams said:
Firstly, by taking the billions of dollars we fork out to actors and athletes and putting them into a fund to better pay our teachers.

Fine. Then every time you think about going to the movies, watching TV, heading to a baseball game, or watching the Superbowl, take 10 bucks and mail it to a teacher.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
How about by not cutting taxes to the super rich and instead using that money to pay teachers?

Or not letting the vast majority of our budget be swamped in untouchable entitlements.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Yeah I agree as well, educators need a nice payment. My school has had problems with finding teachers (since we've had a record for the most fights in our area.. 2 years ago it was around 112 fights with only 180 school days) maybe better payment will bring the best teachers to actually do their job.

Most teachers I've had were nothing more than a push-over, they didn't care about the education we got they just want to make sure we knew enough to pass the exam.

Which brings me to my next point, the grade system should be abolished.

Payment isn't the issue. It's commitment.

And there is no possible way that the grade system could ever be abolished. I really don't see how you could think that's a good idea. I don't want to jump to conclusions and attribute it to the liberal reluctancy to judge others, so please tell me your reasons.
 

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It won't be abolished like you said but;

I feel that the grade system brings too much competition and stress at an early age. I remember feeling a depression when I was in 4th Grade because I got a failing test, I always have felt that this could really hurt someone.

I never really thought of school as a place to compete with one another, but a place where you learn in an distressful environment.

There's a private school in Chapel Hill, North Carolina called "The Friends School" and this school has no grades, but this school generates the best academics in Chapel Hill (for College Level).

I'm not sure how it is in New York, or any other place for that matter, but I was actually graded (traditional way 90% or 98%, you understand) starting Kindergarten, we were graded on how well we could write our names etc etc.

I don't suggestion the 100% abolishment of the grading system, I would like to see it as a helper instead of a stress provider.

Get my point?
 

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Arch Enemy said:
It won't be abolished like you said but;

I feel that the grade system brings too much competition and stress at an early age. I remember feeling a depression when I was in 4th Grade because I got a failing test, I always have felt that this could really hurt someone.

For many people, that may provide a nudge to work harder.
I never really thought of school as a place to compete with one another, but a place where you learn in an distressful environment.

Every single bit of schooling you have, and for that matter, the rest of your life, is competing with each other. I fought and scratched to get into the school I'm in, and I'm going to have to fight even harder to get into the law school I want to go to. After that, I'll have to fight to get on law review, fight for clerkships, fight for a job in a DA's office, fight for an appointment to a court, etc... A competitive high school is the best starting ground for that.



There's a private school in Chapel Hill, North Carolina called "The Friends School" and this school has no grades, but this school generates the best academics in Chapel Hill (for College Level).

There's an obvious selection bias in that. It's a private school that most likely only accepts intelligent rich kids, who fare far better in college admissions, regardless of what their high school was like.

I'm not sure how it is in New York, or any other place for that matter, but I was actually graded (traditional way 90% or 98%, you understand) starting Kindergarten, we were graded on how well we could write our names etc etc.

From k-5, we got vague letter grades in our subjects, and then +'s, checks, and -'s for things like behaviour, attitude, etc. 6-8 we had letter grades. 9-12 we had number grades.

I don't suggestion the 100% abolishment of the grading system, I would like to see it as a helper instead of a stress provider.

Get my point?

I get it, but I don't see the reason to eliminate stress. The sooner kids become used to it, the better. And I hardly see grading as an undue stress.
 

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Fact is alot of people can't really handle stress, so they do something completely stupid and fry their minds with drugs or kill their selves.

I find it how the whole preschool ideology of "sharing" is the easiest way to get yourself trampled on.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Fact is alot of people can't really handle stress, so they do something completely stupid and fry their minds with drugs or kill their selves.

I find it how the whole preschool ideology of "sharing" is the easiest way to get yourself trampled on.

If they can't handle stress, coddling them until they're 18 certainly won't help.

And sharing is overrated.
 

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RightatNYU said:
Payment isn't the issue. It's commitment.

And there is no possible way that the grade system could ever be abolished. I really don't see how you could think that's a good idea. I don't want to jump to conclusions and attribute it to the liberal reluctancy to judge others, so please tell me your reasons.
Tat would be jumping across the Grand Canyon! I do not believe that grades should be abolished, being measured against one's performance is vital, IMHO.

In the real world we're "graded" all the time, so learning the consequences of one's performance is super important...
 
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sebastiansdreams

RightatNYU said:
What about the child? If the child is doing something that is so terrible that it would warrant a paddling or expulsion, chances are that child has problems. What that child needs is special attention. HOWEVER, before that child's right to special attention comes the other children's right to have a decent education. Leaving kids who are trouble in a school system is not fair to the other kids nor right.
This is all assuming that, if allowed different methods of punishment, that a teacher would not have control over their classroom, and I do not think that in necesarly the case. And I certainly do not believe in getting rid of the "trouble kid" so that the others can move forward. It goes back to principal dinamics and Nash's theory. It is best for any group of people to move forward by evaluating both what is best for that person AND what is best for everyone in that group. If you are dropping kids left and right because they present a large discipline problem that is not due to malicious intent, but rather surrounding circumstance, you are, in one sense aiding the group forward, but what happens when only a small percentage of students begin to be the ones without discipline problems? Do you cause them to jump ship as well? I guess I'm so adament about this because I was an ADHD child who had incredibly good intentions but was incredibly socially inept. I couldn't sit still or pay attention, but I certainly had no malicious or subordanant intentions. But my life would be incredibly different if my third grade teacher had not given me enough special attention to diagnose me as ADHD and work to find a councilor and medictation that would work. Granted, I was incredibly fortunate to also have parents who very much cared about my actions at school and were also working with my teachers to come up with the best solution for me. But there are children that don't have that. And just because they are a discipline problem does not mean that should be given up on. It just means that maybe different discipline and other considerations may be necessary, whether the parent is supportive of this or not.
"WE" don't pay them anything. Their salary is decided by the market, which is supported by the millions of people who pay to go see them play each year. It's easy to hate on athletes or movie stars for making so much money when to many, they do so little. But the fact is, the government doesn't pay them ****. To suggest that we "reduce" their pay (besides the fact that you don't specify how this would be done) goes against everything that a free society stands for.
Not necesarly. The general idea of capitalism is that price sets value. Well if that is the case, then arguably a homerunner hitter is more valuable than a teacher. I do not necesarly think that government reduce their pay. Just tax the hell out of them. Granted, a lot of this falls on our own heads as well. But it is not above the government to spend X amount on promotion of such an idea to the American public.
Besides that, I have professors who make millions of dollars each year. Do they deserve it? Yes. I have had terrible teachers who made 25 thousand a year. Did they deserve it? Yes. You're right, all the teachers in this nation combine to have a much greater responsibility than all the baseball players. But if you added up the salaries of every teacher in this country....
It would still be a much more adaquate amount if the money we give to athletes and movies we gave to taxes as pay for teachers. Very few professors make millions a year. Trust me, it's my field, and I am learning to accept the fact that no matter how good I get, my pay is more than likely not going to be anywhere close to a million a year. Are you basing this number off of pay from the University alone? Because their seperate book sales and other revenue would not count in that variable you know?
Baseball players reach millions each year, and do their own good in the world. The best teacher I ever had in high school was incredible, but he only reached about 50 kids a year. And he got a thousand dollars per kid. That's not so bad.
What "good" is it their doing? Providing entertainment? A thousand dollars a child does seem like a good amount if you make the category mistake. But each actor on FRIENDS was paid a million dollars and episode right? In comparison, the numbers aren't matching.
 
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sebastiansdreams

RightatNYU said:
Fine. Then every time you think about going to the movies, watching TV, heading to a baseball game, or watching the Superbowl, take 10 bucks and mail it to a teacher.
I, by rule, pay forty dollars every two weeks towards entertainment. I spend countless numbers of dollars feeding and clothing my fiance who is a teacher's daughter, thus saving her the financial burden. I at least attempt as ademently as possible to follow what I preach.
 
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