Outstanding Talking Points Memo by O'Reilly [W:52]

[VanceMack]

I actually agree with you, and find it laughable that someone taking microwaved burgers and pre-packaged fries and putting them on a tray thinks they deserve to be paid top dollar.

The problem is that our economy has become "service oriented," so that the vast majority of jobs are in fast food, Wal-Mart style customer service, or some other retail service. Gone are the days when a "blue collar" worker could find a job in the Steel Industry, or some other production industry with the possible exception of Oil.

Most of the 3 million plus jobs currently available are in the lower end of the wage spectrum in service employment (I include jobs like office adminstration which is white collar service.) Yes, we have a growing need for technicians but we also have a growing pool of techinical labor filling those positions.

I don't think the answer is raising the minimum wage for service jobs, but rather figuring out a way to re-industrialize our nation while trying to compete with cheap labor in overpopulated foreign countries.

Absolutely. The answer is to re-industrialize this country. That requires a cooperative effort but it si absolutely doable, tho not when all sides keep pointing fingers and blaming the other guy for the failings.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

The personal attacks and snipping stops now. Infractions have been levied and more will if the incivility continues.

 

[Starbuck]

I don't think the answer is raising the minimum wage for service jobs, but rather figuring out a way to re-industrialize our nation while trying to compete with cheap labor in overpopulated foreign countries.

We are due for a big paradigm shift in the United States. You're right, it's hard to justify paying top dollar (although I'd argue that $15.00/ hour is top dollar) for low-level service jobs. However, much like you've pointed out, that's the bulk of the available jobs these days.

There has been a huge shift in employment over the past several decades and more often than in the past, people are finding that the service sector is the only sector. As a free-market type I could simply shrug this off and say "Well I've got mine." However, I know that's not a long-term solution, as any capitalist society needs consumers to assist in the perpetuation of the economy.

Without consumers, I'd be out of the job. . . not that I work with customers, but the industry that I call home is indirectly tied (much like all industry) to consumer spending.

How do you solve the problem?

 

[Starbuck]

1. The outlook for people is EXACTLY what it was 15 years ago. What's the difference?

Actually, it's quite different. Mainly because the pool of "middle class" jobs has shrunk and employers have found it easy to soak more from employees. . . for less. It sounds strange, but I've watched it gain momentum of late.

I am currently employed, but on the market for something different. During this job hunt, I've found more and more employers looking for interns to fill positions that would've been paid in years past. It's only capitalist to get more for less. . . and why would a business owner pay someone to complete a task that someone else is willing to do for free?

Aside from that, you add in the shrinking manufacturing/ construction industry and what do you get? I preponderance of service sector and pointless low-level white collar jobs.

2. There is no luck involved. Tell me who "did all the right things" and didn't succeed. People, in general, are exactly where they deserve to be. Hard work is just that....hard.

Luck is the majority factor from the time of conception through death. Everything from the country you're born into, to the mood of your prospective employer during an interview. . . luck. Certainly you need to capitalize on a lucky situation when it happens, but luck is the cornerstone of every major success story in this country/ world.

White Privilege, my ass. Ignorant excuses for personal failure.

What's the worst thing that can happen if you leave your wallet/ ID at home when you go to work?

 

[Captain Adverse]

We are due for a big paradigm shift in the United States. You're right, it's hard to justify paying top dollar (although I'd argue that $15.00/ hour is top dollar) for low-level service jobs. However, much like you've pointed out, that's the bulk of the available jobs these days.

There has been a huge shift in employment over the past several decades and more often than in the past, people are finding that the service sector is the only sector. As a free-market type I could simply shrug this off and say "Well I've got mine." However, I know that's not a long-term solution, as any capitalist society needs consumers to assist in the perpetuation of the economy.

Without consumers, I'd be out of the job. . . not that I work with customers, but the industry that I call home is indirectly tied (much like all industry) to consumer spending.

How do you solve the problem?

I already stated that the country needs to shift back into a multi-purpose economy. We need to de-emphasize "service" and re-emphasize work that unskilled labor can grow in skills while earning a decent wage. This includes investment in natural resource development, industry, manufacturing, as well as scientific development.

The problem with your $15.00 an hour minimum is that it would reflect in the increased prices of fast food "meals" to make up the difference undercutting consumer incomes. Currently it's the "bargains" offered by fast food and Wal-mart type stores are all that allows about 60 million Americans and their millions of children and non-working spouses to survive on their current incomes.

However, these same "bargains" come at the price of low wages and a shift in industry overseas which takes away higher paying jobs and even low-paying factory assembly type jobs. By raising wages you "compel" corporate interests to seek means of reducing labor costs...so more outsourcing.

What corporate interests fail to understand (or are possibly preparing the way for) is that this will eventually lead to a collapse of our own economy as fewer and fewer citizens have work, thus no salary to buy things with; and those who still do work either for low pay service jobs or extremely high paid "specialty work" (doctors, executives, etc.). They will then shift from consumers they currently depend on in the USA to the new consumer markets overseas; and I believe our coporations are preparing the way for this shift by their current actions.

The only way to prevent this is to return to a multi-purpose economy.

 

[P. Kersey]

I haven't even insulted you yet. I simply responded to your pretentious responses with the same mannerism. You should be grateful that I am still responding to your comments in a thoughtful manner, enticing you to conversation. Please tell me more about why there should be a mandatory minimum wage. Go on. I'm eager to hear them. Please tell me more about white privilege. I'm eager for a chat. I have about 2h to kill on the internet and debating such topics is as good as it gets.

Come on. Come on. Come on!


And yes, I am an ASCII code. And a C#. And a C++. And a Java code. I am... Neo. The matrix. Now full of kitten videos

Good luck. You'll get nothing.

 

[P. Kersey]

What's the worst thing that can happen if you leave your wallet/ ID at home when you go to work?

Get arrested for driving without a license and go to jail.

 

[polgara]

We are due for a big paradigm shift in the United States. You're right, it's hard to justify paying top dollar (although I'd argue that $15.00/ hour is top dollar) for low-level service jobs. However, much like you've pointed out, that's the bulk of the available jobs these days.

There has been a huge shift in employment over the past several decades and more often than in the past, people are finding that the service sector is the only sector. As a free-market type I could simply shrug this off and say "Well I've got mine." However, I know that's not a long-term solution, as any capitalist society needs consumers to assist in the perpetuation of the economy.

Without consumers, I'd be out of the job. . . not that I work with customers, but the industry that I call home is indirectly tied (much like all industry) to consumer spending.

How do you solve the problem?

Good afternoon, Starbuck. :2wave:

Excellent post. :thumbs:

I would also be interested in reading the responses. We know that we can't compete with countries across the globe that pay a few dollars a day to workers, so what is the answer? Bringing our economy down to their level isn't working, but it does enable the government to subsidize their wages, keeping them dependent upon said big government.

However, each year, the average working American must labor 107 days just to make enough money to pay local, state, and federal taxes, but the hue and cry always seems to be "we need to raise taxes!" Perhaps if we could get back the more than 56.000 manufacturing facilities we have lost since 2001, there would be jobs for all that want to work! Instead, it seems that more rules and regulations are being forced upon companies all the time, so is it surprising that many just give up and relocate? American workers lose !

 

[Starbuck]

The problem with your $15.00 an hour minimum is that it would reflect in the increased prices of fast food "meals" to make up the difference undercutting consumer incomes. Currently it's the "bargains" offered by fast food and Wal-mart type stores are all that allows about 60 million Americans and their millions of children and non-working spouses to survive on their current incomes.

I realized that I mis-typed the post a little bit, I'm not really advocating for a set minimum wage. Mostly for the very reasons you've already cited. All we'd be doing is lowering the value of the dollar, not sustainable.

The only way to prevent this is to return to a multi-purpose economy.

That sounds really good, but I don't know if it is as simple as all of that.

 

[Starbuck]

Get arrested for driving without a license and go to jail.

Well, that might be a bit of an exaggeration.

It's not a jail-worthy offense to drive without a DL on your person, that's a cite and release.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I realized that I mis-typed the post a little bit, I'm not really advocating for a set minimum wage. Mostly for the very reasons you've already cited. All we'd be doing is lowering the value of the dollar, not sustainable.



That sounds really good, but I don't know if it is as simple as all of that.

It really is "as simple as that." Most people want to work; it keeps them busy and gives them a sense of purpose. Most people also want a chance to advance themselves, and a working environment allows them opportunities to express this drive.

The problem is convincing American corporate interests, whose current ideology is focused only on maximizing profits, to develop enlightened self-interest. By that I mean they should realize they are contributing to the erosion of the American economy, and thus future profitability, by not re-investing in multi-purpose economic growth. The difficulty is that they envision a world market and see future profitability in growing economies like China, India and elsewhere. Thus, they feel no loyalty to the economy of the nation that allowed them the wherewithal to become the giants they are now.

 

[P. Kersey]

Well, that might be a bit of an exaggeration.

It's not a jail-worthy offense to drive without a DL on your person, that's a cite and release.

Oh..ok...Skew your imaginary scenario however you want to support your imaginary premise, then.
People go to jail every day for driving without a license.

 

[Starbuck]

Good afternoon, Starbuck. :2wave:

Excellent post. :thumbs:

Thanks!

Yea, trying to compete with other countries in the 'race to the bottom' is a bad idea. Chances are that we'd loose, but even if we won the race to the bottom, is that really something that we'd to claim?

I think that education and research are good places to invest our resources. I'd like to see some of the manufacturing facilities reopened, reference the NUMMI facility that Tesla is now using. I think 'alternative' energy and repurposing facilitates have a lot of potential.

 

[Starbuck]

Oh..ok...Skew your imaginary scenario however you want to support your imaginary premise, then.
People go to jail every day for driving without a license.

First of all, driving without a license isn't the same as driving with you forget your license at home.

Second of all, find me some credible sources that back up your claim. . . never mind that's too far off subject.

 

[P. Kersey]

First of all, driving without a license isn't the same as driving with you forget your license at home.

Second of all, find me some credible sources that back up your claim. . . never mind that's too far off subject.

Son, if you don't have your license on you, that is driving without a license and a cop CAN take you to jail for that. It happens every day.

 

[notquiteright]

Son, if you don't have your license on you, that is driving without a license and a cop CAN take you to jail for that. It happens every day.

Actually no it isn't. It is a traffic citation not a criminal violation. If you have a valid driver's license but fail to carry it the LEO can look you up, especially if you keep a copy of your insurance in the vehicle.

There is a difference between driving on a suspended license,expired, or no license at all and being a licensed driver not in possession of that license.

 

[P. Kersey]

Actually no it isn't. It is a traffic citation not a criminal violation. If you have a valid driver's license but fail to carry it the LEO can look you up, especially if you keep a copy of your insurance in the vehicle.

There is a difference between driving on a suspended license,expired, or no license at all and being a licensed driver not in possession of that license.

A cop can take you to jail if he wants to for not having your license if he stops you. The charge would be "driving without a license".

 

[Starbuck]

Son, if you don't have your license on you, that is driving without a license and a cop CAN take you to jail for that. It happens every day.

Actually, that is illegal and the police officer would be acting outside of state law, at least for people in Texas and California:

CVC 12951

TTC 521.025

That would be a cite-and-release violation of the vehicle/ transportation code in either state. I'll guarantee that you find similar results in other states.

 

[Starbuck]

It really is "as simple as that." Most people want to work; it keeps them busy and gives them a sense of purpose. Most people also want a chance to advance themselves, and a working environment allows them opportunities to express this drive.

The problem is convincing American corporate interests, whose current ideology is focused only on maximizing profits, to develop enlightened self-interest. By that I mean they should realize they are contributing to the erosion of the American economy, and thus future profitability, by not re-investing in multi-purpose economic growth. The difficulty is that they envision a world market and see future profitability in growing economies like China, India and elsewhere. Thus, they feel no loyalty to the economy of the nation that allowed them the wherewithal to become the giants they are now.

I'd still argue that what you are saying isn't very simple, but I could't have said it any better myself.

Great post.

 

[What if...?]

Son, if you don't have your license on you, that is driving without a license and a cop CAN take you to jail for that. It happens every day.

Which is utterly assinine because they've been able to call up a picture of your license on their computers for years.

Just another way to fill the govs coffers.

 

[Starbuck]

A cop can take you to jail if he wants to for not having your license if he stops you. The charge would be "driving without a license".

It doesn't actually work that way, at least not in the United States.

Anyway, the point wasn't to start some debate about minor vehicle code violations.

My point was to illustrate that for the overwhelming majority of white people, a traffic stop without a license in their possession is but a minor inconvenience. For any minority though, there is the underlying fear that they'll be labeled as an illegal alien. One of the people that I work with brought this to my attention when we were driving off site during a normal work day.

He had left his wallet in his car that morning, but insisted that we pick it up prior to leaving the facility in a company vehicle. Even though I knew it was a cite-and-release violation to drive without a DL in your possession (and that he is a very safe driver), a police officer can and has held him on suspicion of being an illegal alien. Naturally he is a citizen of the United States and has been living here legally longer than I have been alive, but that doesn't matter to some police officers, and you can never predict who is going to stop you and for what reason.

As a white guy, that isn't a concern for me. . . and that is the definition of 'white privilege.'

 

[notquiteright]

A cop can take you to jail if he wants to for not having your license if he stops you. The charge would be "driving without a license".

Ummm no he won't- driving while not in possession of your valid driver's license is a traffic citation not criminal violation. Trying to say a cop CAN, is a cop-out, so's to speak. He can do most anything if he 'wants' to, but it will be thrown out.

traffic citation is not a criminal violation. simple traffic citations do not go on your criminal record.

 

[What if...?]

A cop can take you to jail if he wants to for not having your license if he stops you. The charge would be "driving without a license".

It would actually be driving without a license in possession.

And your odds of simply being cited increase dramatically the lighter your skin color.

 

[P. Kersey]

Actually, that is illegal and the police officer would be acting outside of state law, at least for people in Texas and California:

CVC 12951

TTC 521.025

That would be a cite-and-release violation of the vehicle/ transportation code in either state. I'll guarantee that you find similar results in other states.

Lots of people don't live in Ca. or Tx.

but ok..have it your way.
It isn't worth arguing...

*pro tip* cops can and will arrest you for anything they want and then make the charge fit later. You're safer handling rattlesnakes than arguing with a cop.

 

[Starbuck]

Lots of people don't live in Ca. or Tx.

Yea, approximately 84% of the citizens of the US reside outside of either TX or CA.

The point was to illustrate that two states on the opposite sides of the spectrum have very similar laws regarding the possession of a DL in the car while driving. I'm quite sure that New York, Florida and Virginia all have similar measures.

*pro tip* cops can and will arrest you for anything they want and then make the charge fit later. You're safer handling rattlesnakes than arguing with a cop.

That's a pretty good tip, I don't think I'd recommend arguing with police officers either, but chances are. . . if you are a lighter complexion they aren't going to be bothering you as much.