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Outside looking in: The "Not Fox News" News

Illegality of Preventive Attack and Unilateral Use of Force
By Phil Shiner
[continued]



I have about thirty cases of deaths at the hands of UK troops during policing functions. The following points can be made:

The soldiers killed civilians, some in their homes, whilst operating under rules of engagement, which should have been changed from the war to the different circumstances of the occupation.
The soldiers appear not to have been trained in the basic elements of Iraqi civil society. For example, people were killed after the customary discharge of guns at funeral parties were mistaken for gun battles.
In virtually all cases the Commanding Officer concluded on the basis of the soldiers' evidence only that there had been no breach of the ROE, which remain secret.
That no soldier, let alone officer, has been charged with any of the detention incidents let alone these unlawful killing cases.
That there appears to be a large number of civilian deaths at the hands of UK troops during the period May 2003 to January 2004.
As for US troops' actions during the occupation much of what they have done is hidden from view because of the role of the media. I want to focus on events in Falluja to give some legal input before the witness evidence in tomorrow's fourth session. It seems from what we know that US troops engaged in acts of collective punishment towards the civilian population of Fallujah from at least April 2004 onwards. Some of the few eyewitness accounts that exist are now emerging. One of the few reporters to reach the city is American Dahr Jamail of the Inter Press Service. He interviewed a doctor who had filmed the testimony of a 16-year-old girl:

"She stayed for three days with the bodies of her family who were killed in her home. When the soldiers entered she was in her home with her father, mother, 12-year-old brother and two sisters.
She watched the soldiers enter and shoot her mother and father directly, without saying anything. They beat her two sisters, then shot them in the head. After this her brother was enraged and ran at the soldiers whilst shouting at them, so they shot him dead."

Another report comes from an aid convoy headed by Doctor Salem Ismael. He was in Fallujah in February 2005. As well as delivering aid he photographed the dead, including children, and interviewed remaining residents. He reports: `

"The accounts I heard ... will live with me forever. You may think you know what happened in Fallujah, but the truth is worse than anything you could possibly have imagined."
Doctor Ismael relates the story of Hudda Fawzi Salam Issawi from Falluja:

"Five of us, including a 55-year-old neighbor, were trapped together in our house in Fallujah when the siege began. On 9 November, American Marines came to our house. My father and the neighbor went to the door to meet them. We were not fighters. We thought we had nothing to fear. I ran into the kitchen to put on my veil, since men were going to enter our house and it would be wrong for them to see me with my hair uncovered. This saved my life. As my father and neighbor approached the door, the Americans opened fire on them. They died instantly. Me and my 13-year-old brother hid in the kitchen behind the fridge. The soldiers came into the house and caught my oldest sister. They beat her. Then they shot her. But they did not see me. Soon they left, but not before they had destroyed our furniture and stolen the money from my father's pocket."
Naomi Klein has also produced evidence about what she sees as the US Forces laying siege to Fallujah "in retaliation for the gruesome killings of four Blackwater employees". She speaks of hundreds of civilians being killed during the siege in April 2004, and of a deliberate tactic of eliminating doctors, journalists and clerics who focused public attention on civilian casualties previously.

All of the above acts are arguably "crimes against humanity" "defined by section 7 ICC Statute) as "murder" (Article 7 (1)(a)), "extermination" (Article 7 (1)(b)) or "other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health" (Article 7 (1)(k)). Further, they may be "war crimes" (defined by Article 8 of the ICC Statute) as a "willful killing" (Article 8 (2)(a)(i)), "wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health" (Article 8 (2)(a)(iii)) or "intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as such or aga inst individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities" (Article 8 (2)(b)(i)) or "intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such an attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated" (Article 8 (2)(b)(iv).

As for the latter, questions need to be addressed as to military objectives and proportionality. If the force used was "clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated" then it would be disproportionate and unlawful. However, it must be remembered that this was a lawful occupation authorized by Resolution 1483. In its recitals, this recognized "the specific authorities, responsibilities, and obligations under applicable international law of [both] states as occupying powers under unified command". The UK and US had to respect Geneva Convention IV. Thus decisions about military objectives and proportionality cannot be approached as if this were a time of war. But even if they could, it is hard to see how the US could possibly justify these acts, if proven. Further, liability does not stop with the US. I have already set out the arguments about joint criminal enterprise and thus the responsibility of the UK for the acts of the US. Legally, these arguments as to joint responsibility are enhanced during the occupation. Not only were both states acting under de jure authority as occupying powers but also they were also senior partners within the CPA and thus responsible for all the legislative and administrative functions I have noted above. Thus, a legal analysis of the issue of accountability for incidents such as these from Fallujah, which may involve "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity", must begin by recognizing, first, the lawful authority of the US and UK to both occupy and administer Iraq, and second, recognizing the protection of civilians through international humanitarian law, specifically Geneva Convention IV, and international human rights law, especially the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the ECHR. It is also critically important to appreciate that any proper accountability is entirely dependant upon a lawful independent investigation being conducted. That is the importance of the protection given to the Right to Life (ECHR, Art2; IICPR Art 6) by the requirement to hold such an inquiry. For example, if states know at the outset that killings and torture during an occupation will be investigated independently then this knowledge should be reflected in improved training for Armed Forces and thus more Human Rights compliant behavior. Further, the requirement for independence is not met by the military investigation. It is only when such an independent investigation unearths who is responsible that one gets to deal with questions as to who, if anyone, should be charged with "crimes against humanity" or "war crimes". Accordingly, one sees that it is pre-judging the issues arising from the incidents in Fallujah to say that those responsible in a few incidents were acting within the rules of engagement and using proportionate force.

The US and UK should have been proceeding on the basis that a lawful approach to international humanitarian law and international human rights law relevant to the protection of civilians in an occupation would be expected of them and rigorously enforced by the international community through, for example, if appropriate, critical Resolutions of the Security Council. But it is not too late for accountability, and this Tribunal may be part of a future process that leads to it.

Conclusion

The Iraq war and occupation challenges us all to face the threat to international law by the actions of the US, UK and other members of the coalition. We must be resolute in our determination to make international law stronger and more concerned with peace. There must be accountability for the dreadful numbers of Iraqi civilian casualties in this aggressive war and bearing in mind the use of indiscriminate methods of attack. There cannot be impunity for the acts of torture in detention - and in some cases deaths - nor the wanton killing of civilians during the occupation. In so far as US and UK interrogation techniques violate Article 1 of UN Convention on Torture, it cannot be acceptable that there be impunity. Accountability - rather than impunity - rests on two building blocks:

1. That there be an independent investigation to establish who is responsible for what acts and how far up the chain of command should responsibility lie. That is the importance of the positive obligation of Article 3 of the ECHR, and thus the critical importance of UK cases that attempt to establish that the ECHR did apply during the occupation.

2. That the ICC Prosecutor fulfils its functions to make those responsible for these "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity" accountable through principles of individual criminal liability. In decisions over the next few months as to how, if at all, to investigate and prosecute these matters, it is important that he recognize the fundamental duty he has to uphold the rule of law.
 
Last edited:
Hey Billo,

Whether or not intentional, by continually throwing reports on one side of Iraq, a side that is shared by people like you with a pre-existing grudge,(As your attached image proves), you are hurting the morale of both the military personale reading this and/or their families. It acheives NOTHING positive. Everything you do is an attempt to sabotage. You are not seeking truth and you are not seeking lies....You just seek to hurt.

You will not rest until there is a 100% disapproval rating for our current President, which would still be irrelevant because, like it or not, he is OUR President until Jan. 2008.

Defend your actions anyway you want...your ending results are hurtful.
 
Originally quoted by Teacher:
You can be far more annoying with your words, rather than size and color, like me, just ask around. Or do you think to become more annoying than me? Bro, you ain't got what it takes, not even close, and you ARE VERY annoying. Let me put it like this.

Billo Really is to annoying as teacher,
as a grain of sand is to taking up space on a beach

I'm not your bro, bro!

Pictures%2F43Messing%2520With%2520Bush%2520003.jpg
 
July 2005 -- Issue 0049

Commentary
by David Bancroft

Silent Majority Needs To Speak-up!

I know you are probably groaning already from just reading the title of this commentary, but please be patient enough to read the why.

I firmly believe deep down in my heart that the overwhelming majority of Americans, who usually remain silent, would collectively like to scream more than once . . . when a relatively “few” loud mouth politicians from either side play the partisanship game . . . especially when there is even a hint of negatively impacting troop morale.

Why are these people, who were elected by their respective constituents, so blinded by personal gain and winning the next election at all cost . . . that they ignore all common sense to the collateral damage done? The easy answer is that their statements and actions will not impact their ability to get re-elected, because they are safe at home. It is also sad that the majority of their constituents place them on a pedestal almost beyond reach of almost any political damage.

Here is where it gets tricky… for loyal followers too engrained to be honest about the real purpose of their politician on one or more issues where he / she and few others are the only voice for the respective party . . . It really requires all of us to be very objective, closely listening to future arguments expressed (sometimes associated with indignation) . . . and consider whether it applies as constructive dialogue in moving an issue forward for possible bipartisan resolution . . . or it just being an attack without any alternative constructive idea. (You can bet that the other side is definitely thinking partisanship and is usually correct, unless it is all about spin from both sides… Yeah, I just gave myself a headache too with this terrible thought.)

Now, many of you know that my youngest son served with the Marines in Iraq during 2003. So, when hearing a certain older Senator from Massachusetts describe Iraq as a quagmire, I became . . . hmmm . . . livid! And the same feelings would be expressed regardless of who had said it.

See, I take it personally as the father of a Marine who came as close to being a fallen while coming home without a wound. Making a statement like that for what was purely about politics and with cameras and microphones all around is the worst type of partisanship there is . . . And his other intent from my perspective was deliberately trying to tag the effort in Iraq to the Vietnam War, which our troops back then were not allowed to win or had the support they so well deserved. (Where was he then about that?)

Oh yeah, this particular senator has yet to visit Iraq or Afghanistan, so he really was speaking in a voice without first hand knowledge and authority. He pretended to be what he is not. And while I am sure the intent was not meant to impact the morale of the troops or their family members . . . he did exactly that with perception alone. It came across as indirect questioning of our troops fighting ability and resolve along with faulting the uniformed military leaders in failing the troops. It just seemed to be a pretense for scoring political points for the 2006 elections. Revisiting ifs and buts at the expense of hurting troop morale is unacceptable for this American, even if, political reasons blind the speaker from his common sense.
I also have the same question for this senator about how many strikes beyond three he has been given both personally and politically since the age of reason. However, I am human too with my own flaws and have no intention to cast a stone beyond the reminder that we are all subject to God above . . . regardless of the separation of church and state down here.

Moreover, I fault all the media for its under reporting the good being done in Iraq by brave American and allied troops and all the non-military contractors. Why don’t all of the networks report the same number of good stories as the tragic ones involving the loss of troops and/or Iraqis? I think that would help to dampen the partisan rhetoric, as well.
And it would be nice to see “every” elected official think of being an American and patriot first at this time of the year in celebration of America’s independence and the same for all our national holidays… Who knows what might happen next. (Reading my poem, Hooray USA!, should give you an idea of how I hope it could be like, including in Washington D.C.)

Okay, it is your turn to be heard... Do so by contacting your congressman and senator about how you feel he and/or she is representing you and what else you expect from them! Hopefully, you will also state your disgust with the bitter partisanship that has become the norm instead of the exception.

David Bancroft
Editor-in-Chief

http://www.netnacs.com/home.htm
 
I don't have a problem with Bancroft. Most of it I agree with. Some of it I don't. Like the lefty media. I think it is pro-Bush. If you look at all that stuff I imported from other websites, without agreeing to any of it, its not hard to see all the stuff that is not being broadcast here.

His comments on Kennedy (a good Senator but a bad date), I would probably agree with too. But he's not my Senator. If he doesn't lose weight soon, he's going to look like a float in a Macy's day parade.

I have written all 3 of my representatives. Request Bush be impeached.

I'm not anti-American. I just don't think we should run around the world telling country's how to do business.
 
Hey Billo,

Whether or not intentional, by continually throwing reports on one side of Iraq, a side that is shared by people like you with a pre-existing grudge,(As your attached image proves), you are hurting the morale of both the military personale reading this and/or their families. It acheives NOTHING positive. Everything you do is an attempt to sabotage. You are not seeking truth and you are not seeking lies....You just seek to hurt.

You will not rest until there is a 100% disapproval rating for our current President, which would still be irrelevant because, like it or not, he is OUR President until Jan. 2008.

Defend your actions anyway you want...your ending results are hurtful.
 
Billo_Really said:
Illegality of Preventive Attack and Unilateral Use of Force
By Phil Shiner
Peacerights; Visiting Professor; London Metropolitan University; and Fellow, London School of Economics

In this paper I wish to address three issues:


Your a broken record. Think I wont read this. As I'm sure many other members now don't. At least you use normal fonts, colors and size now. Next we work on your mind.
 
Originally posted by Teacher:
Your a broken record. Think I wont read this.
Oooh. Oooh. Killer rabbit. Runaway! Runaway...!

Originally posted by Teacher:
As I'm sure many other members now don't.
I bet there is a lot of people on this board that would object to you speaking for them.


Originally posted by Teacher:
At least you use normal fonts, colors and size now. Next we work on your mind.
Of all the things I've lost, its my mind I miss the most! At least I had one to begin with. Bra....
 
Originally posted by cnredd:
Whether or not intentional, by continually throwing reports on one on side of Iraq, a side that is shared by people like you with a pre-existing grudge,
Thank you for drawing a distinction between me and someone with "a pre-existing grudge". As for throwing one side, you half to admit that there is a lot of for war posts on this board.

Originally posted by cnredd:
(As your attached image proves), you are hurting the morale of both the military personale reading this and/or their families.
The only posts I have seen from the over 400 logged on users that currently have military connections, are from a women who is understandibly concerned for her husband (who is in the theatre of conflict) and a war-mongering jerk (who I could care less about). The only thing I want to convey with the image [at the bottom of previous posts] was to suggest that he [the President] might not be the leader people make him out to be. In addition, since you were sincere (instead of being flippant) in your objections, out of respect for the point you are trying to make (even though I disagree with it), I have revised my Avatar.

Originally posted by cnredd:
It acheives NOTHING positive. Everything you do is an attempt to sabotage.
If it will help get the troops home, is that not possitive? Lets face it, nobody really cares about Iraq except the corporate interests that want to expand in that area. Go back to one of the first or two articles in this thread and you will see what I mean. Its from an average Iraqi dealing with American Idol or 60 minutes. When you read her comments and reactions to American programming, it is easy to see corporatism at work.

Originally posted by cnredd:
You are not seeking truth and you are not seeking lies....You just seek to hurt.
It is your perception that I am not. Of which, I couldn't disagree more. But I do accept the fact you feel this way, and have no problem with it. As far as hurting, everyone chooses their own emotions. Don't put that rap on me.

Originally posted by cnredd:
You will not rest until there is a 100% disapproval rating for our current President,
I will settle for 2/3 majority of the House and Senate.

Originally posted by cnredd:
which would still be irrelevant because, like it or not, he is OUR President until Jan. 2008.
I sadly agree.

Originally posted by cnredd:
Defend your actions anyway you want...your ending results are hurtful.
Like I said, don't put that rap on me.
 

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Billo_Really said:
Thank you for drawing a distinction between me and someone with "a pre-existing grudge". As for throwing one side, you half to admit that there is a lot of for war posts on this board.
QUOTE]


I disagree. I have yet to see a pro-war post.

There is a difference between actively seeking and profiteering from a war and pushing through one you are already involved in.

By contrast anti-war protesters are portrayed (often by themselves) as not necessarily anti-war(duh..who isnt?) as much as attention seeking and unsupportive of our troops during an existing conflict.

It is a mixed message and needs some cleaning up on both sides.
 
Originally posted by akyron:
I have yet to see a pro-war post.
You haven't notice all the "were there to promote democracy" comments. Or the ones in defense of Bush in regards to DSM.

Originally posted by akyron:
By contrast anti-war protesters are portrayed...as attention seeking
Well, duh! Your right.

Originally posted by akyron:
...supportive of our troops
What the phuck does this mean!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by akyron:
I have yet to see a pro-war post.

You haven't notice all the "were there to promote democracy" comments. Or the ones in defense of Bush in regards to DSM.


Promoting democracy is not pro war.


Quote:
Originally posted by akyron:
By contrast anti-war protesters are portrayed...as attention seeking

Well, duh! Your right.

Selfishly attention seeking is a better description.

Quote:
Originally posted by akyron:
...supportive of our troops

What the phuck does this mean!

unsuppportive was the word.
unsupportive

adj : not furnishing support or assistance


ack im done responding to you. your sigs are net passort requests.
 
Alternet.org : The Great American Job Scam

We increasingly live in a Wal-Mart America, where the hours are long, wages low, and benefits non-existent. Where have all the good jobs gone? The debate over jobs has for the most part been obscured by partisan rhetoric, corporate spin and media hype. Screaming headlines about outsourcing jostle those of corporate fraud. But in the end we're none the wiser about how to create a better future for ourselves and our children.

Greg LeRoy's new book, "The Great American Job Scam: Corporate Tax Dodging and the Myth of Job Creation," offers at least part of the answer in exposing a system that subsidizes corporate greed at the expense of the taxpayer. Today, states, counties, and cities cannibalize their own communities in the name of "attracting business," which entails competing with one another to waste vast amounts of precious taxpayer dollars in the form of corporate subsidies. As LeRoy demonstrates in his book, these subsidies are not just "unfair" but also entirely useless. Companies routinely pocket the money -- all $50 billion of it each year -- without delivering either the promised jobs or tax revenues.
 
Originally posted by NoobieDoobieDo:
ack im done responding to you. your sigs are net passort requests.
Oh 'contraire! I think we are just getting started. Now could you translate that statement into english? Its my first day in public.
 
Here's something you won't see on Fox News:

Did you ever wonder how much actual effort was being put into the training effort?

According to this recent Congressional Research Service report Post-War Iraq: Foreign Contributions to Training, Peacekeeping, and Reconstruction ... here is a summary of what is being done to retrain the security forces in Iraq under the auspices of the NATO Training Mission-I (NTM-I) program:

NATO Member
Contribution (Trainers, Funding, Force Protection)

Belgium
Offered five to 10 military driving instructors for a German-led training mission for Iraqis in the United Arab Emirates. Will contribute $261,000 to a trust fund to help cover costs of the NATO mission.

Bulgaria
Pledged to send five instructors to Iraq, $40,000 in funding.

Canada
Offered up to 30 instructors to train outside Iraq, probably in Jordan, $810,000.

Czech Republic
Pledged to send five instructors and train up to 100 Iraqi military police in the Czech Republic during 2005. Announced donation of approximately $180,000 in April 2005.

Denmark

Offered 10 trainers and seven soldiers for force protection. Sent pistols, radios, binoculars and other equipment for Iraqi forces.

Estonia
One officer serving on NTM-I and has pledged $65,000 in support funds.

France

Will send one officer to help mission coordination at NATO headquarters in Belgium. Has offered to train 1,500 Iraqi military police in Qatar outside of the NATO NTM-I mission.

Germany
Offered to train Iraqi military personnel in United Arab Emirates and to contribute $652,000 to support program funding and airlift for Iraqi personnel. Iraqi security officers have received training under the auspices of NTM-I at a NATO military training facility in Oberammergau, Germany.

Greece
Has contributed approximately $376,000 in support funding.

Hungary
Sixteen officers currently in Iraq in support of NTM-I mission. Plans to supply 150 force protection troops for training facilities once the training facility at Ar Rustamiya is complete. Original nominal deployment period for the Hungarian troops was set for June 1, 2005 to September 30, 2006. Donating 77 refurbished Russian-made T72 tanks to Iraq in September 2005.

Iceland

Public information officer will serve with NATO mission in Baghdad. Offered $196,000 to fund training outside the country and help transport equipment to Iraq.

Italy
Eight officers currently serving in support of NTM-I mission in Baghdad. Considering sending up to 16 more.

Latvia

Plans to host Iraqi soldiers for bomb disposal training. Contributing $65,000 to NTM-I trust fund. Sending equipment to Iraqi forces.

Lithuania
Two trainers serving in Iraq, two more expected. Also considering training Iraqi personnel in Lithuania.

Luxembourg
Offered $196,000 in support funds.

Netherlands
10 military police and 15 trainers currently serving on NTM-I mission. Considering sending more.

Norway
Sending 10 trainers to Iraq. Hosted training of 19 Iraqi officers at NATO Joint Warfare Center. $196,000 in funding.

Poland
Plans to send up to 10 trainers and a transport platoon of about 30. Considering sending force protection unit. Decision pending expiration of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1546 and elections scheduled for September 2005.

Portugal
Sending up to 10 soldiers to Iraq to support NTM-I mission.

Romania
Two instructors in Iraq, five more planned. Will take 25 Iraqi officers on training course in Romania in July, 25 additional expected later in 2005.

Slovakia
Sending two instructors to Iraq, $53,000 in support funding.

Slovenia
Offered to support training outside Iraq, probably in Jordan. Offered $132,000 in support funding.

Spain
Plans to train groups of 25 Iraqis in mine clearance at a center outside Madrid. Pledged $530,000 in support funding.

Turkey
Two officers serving in Baghdad; offered to train Iraqis in Turkey. Pledged $125,000 in April 2005.

United Kingdom
Eleven soldiers now serving with NTM-I mission. Pledged $330,000 in support funding.

United States
Commands the operation under Lt. Gen. David Petraeus. 60 instructors and a force protection company with NTM-I mission in Baghdad. Providing logistics and airlift support. Pledged $500,000.

It doesn't inspire confidence that so many of the offered contributions from the NATO allies involve training sessions outside Iraq. The biggest contribution seems to be the "77 refurbished Russian-made T72 tanks" that Hungary is donating (presumably to make room for the U.S.-made tanks they will be getting after joining NATO).

To put the Iraqi training priority in perspective, the U.S. contribution to this effort is $500,000. That's out of a reported $408 billion defense budget and another $45 billion for Iraq alone.


http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_dailywarnews_archive.html
 
Originally posted by NoobieDoobieDo:
Alternet.org : The Great American Job Scam

We increasingly live in a Wal-Mart America, where the hours are long, wages low, and benefits non-existent. Where have all the good jobs gone? The debate over jobs has for the most part been obscured by partisan rhetoric, corporate spin and media hype. Screaming headlines about outsourcing jostle those of corporate fraud. But in the end we're none the wiser about how to create a better future for ourselves and our children.

Greg LeRoy's new book, "The Great American Job Scam: Corporate Tax Dodging and the Myth of Job Creation," offers at least part of the answer in exposing a system that subsidizes corporate greed at the expense of the taxpayer. Today, states, counties, and cities cannibalize their own communities in the name of "attracting business," which entails competing with one another to waste vast amounts of precious taxpayer dollars in the form of corporate subsidies. As LeRoy demonstrates in his book, these subsidies are not just "unfair" but also entirely useless. Companies routinely pocket the money -- all $50 billion of it each year -- without delivering either the promised jobs or tax revenues.
This is a good post. I wish more people would catch the clue.
 
Here are a few independant news media sources I use:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

http://www.buzzflash.com/

http://www.commondreams.org/

You'll find articles on these sites from all over the nation that oppose the current administration.

Published on Friday, September 16, 2005 by the Associated Press
Chavez Takes Bush to Task on World Stage Over War in Iraq
by Kim Gamel


UNITED NATIONS - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez took President Bush to task in front of a global summit for waging war in Iraq without U.N. consent and won rousing applause for his critique.

The leftist leader told a U.N. summit on Thursday that fighting the war without U.N. authorization showed Washington did not respect the world body. He recommended moving U.N. headquarters to a country that has more regard for the organization.

"There were never weapons of mass destruction but Iraq was bombed, and over U.N. objections, (it was) occupied and continues being occupied," Chavez said. Bush alleged that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction but none have been found, shattering one of his main arguments for going to war.

"That's why we propose to this assembly that the United Nations leave this country, which is not respectful of the very resolutions of this assembly," Chavez said.

Chavez, a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro, suggested moving U.N. headquarters New York to an international city "outside the sovereignty of any state" and said some have mentioned Jerusalem as one possibility.

But the Venezuelan leader said the new headquarters has to be in the South, home to most developing countries.

Bush was not in the audience when Chavez spoke to the world representatives. But the U.S. president did address the summit's the opening session on Wednesday morning, then returned to Washington later that day.

World leaders at the summit had been asked to speak for five minutes but Chavez ran long and when the presiding diplomat passed him a note saying his time was up, he threw it on the floor. He said if Bush could speak for 20 minutes, so could he.

When he finally stopped, he got what observers said was the loudest applause of the summit.

Relations between Chavez and Washington have become increasingly strained, though the United States remains the top buyer of Venezuelan oil.

Chavez repeatedly has accused the U.S. government of backing plots against him, and recently alleged Washington was preparing to invade his country.

American religious broadcaster Pat Robertson recently suggested the United States assassinate Chavez because he poses a threat. Chavez responded that Robertson had clearly "expressed the wish of the elite that govern the United States." Robertson has since apologized.

U.S. officials strongly deny the Venezuelan leader's claims but have expressed concerns about the health of the country's democracy under Chavez, who was first elected in 1998 pledging a social "revolution" for the poor majority.

The two leaders have clashed over a host of other issues as well.

Bush criticized Venezuela's government earlier Thursday, saying the South American nation had "failed demonstrably" to make a concerted effort to block shipments of illicit narcotics to the United States and Europe last year.

Venezuela could have been subjected to a cutoff of U.S. assistance, but Bush decided to waive the provision because of national security interests.

In early August, Chavez accused the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration of using its agents in Venezuela for espionage, and said Venezuela was suspending cooperation with the agency. The Bush administration denied the espionage charge.

Chavez, whose country is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter, also warned the world is facing an unprecedented energy crisis.

He told reporters later the crisis will keep growing, "not because we the producers want it but because we are running out of oil."

Chavez singled out the United States as the most wasteful country, saying he was shocked when a quarter of all the cars he counted Thursday morning on New York streets had one person in them.

"That's crazy, one person with a huge car ... that is using up gas and polluting the atmosphere," he said at a news conference. "The world cannot tolerate this model of development called the American way of life."

In a form of energy diplomacy, Chavez has extended a preferential oil trade deal called PetroCaribe to 13 Caribbean countries in what he says is part of a plan to challenge U.S. economic domination of the region.

Under the plan, Venezuela will soon sell up to 190,000 barrels of fuel a day to countries from Jamaica to St. Lucia, offering favorable financing while shipping fuel directly to reduce costs. It is expected to help those countries save millions of dollars.

Associated Press writer Ian James in Caracas, Venezuela, contributed to this report.

Copyright 2005 Associated Press
 
It only took 8 months for the US military and their appointed puppets at the Iraqi Coalition Provisional Authority to lose track of an amount equivalent to all the Oil For Food money during the scandal. The UN was vilified for their oversight. I wonder how neo's can explain over 1 billion missing from Iraq's defense budget that was pilfered right under the nose of US watchdogs. That's their entire defense budget. That was the money that was going to make it possible for Iraqi military personnel the ability to defend themselves without US troop involvement. So much for that.

Just another example of incompetence from the top down! Red states, you need to go back to school. Stop polluting our elections with your dumbshit votes. We are supposed to be a well informed republic. Not a hayseed-dickboy democracy. Because when you have hayseed-dickboy democracy, you get people in office nominating people for important positions that are a taco short of a combo plate. That's how you lose track of 1 billion dollars.

Thanks, used-to-be-half-of-America, you did us no favors.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article313538.ece
 
Who says he doesn't care?

bushguitarsuperdome2ty.jpg
 
I just saw something on Fox News about five minutes ago on Brit Hume's show that I thought I would never see, "Fox" apologizing on air for an error in their reporting that Bill Clinton was the only President to criticize his successor. According to Hume, President Bush (GW's dad), criticized Clinton on more than one occasion.

I want to commend Fox for their honesty on this subject. I would hope others (not just media) can admit when they made a mistake. If not to the masses, at least to themselves.
 
O GOD BAN AND BILLO in the same room means disaster for this forum.
 
Originally posted by SKILMATIC:
O GOD BAN AND BILLO in the same room means disaster for this forum.
You mean, "...BILLO AND BAN...!"
 
Billo_Really said:
You mean, "...BILLO AND BAN...!"

:rofl Yeo thats what I meant but dont tell ban ok? hehe

Hope all is well billo
 
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