Out of curiosity....

[sangha]

Just reposting some posts as a reminder to Ernst, who seems to have forgotten that he asked for evidence that the Framers spoke in support of a progressive tax system

Progressive taxes were even championed by our founders. You should remember that Thomas Jefferson advocated progressive taxes, as did the father of capitalism, Adam Smith. John Adams wrote, during the revolutionary war, of his agreement with taxes that were “heaviest upon the rich and the higher Classes of People.”
Sorry but you are in the wrong country if you don't believe in progressive taxation. Actually the wrong time period too. Most every Western nation is committed to progressive taxes.

you are making a statement to something, ok fine, then please provide it for me to read myself.

The TJ quote I have posted several times shows that TJ supported a progressive tax under certain conditions, and that even Ernst agrees that those conditions apply today in the US

 

[Master PO]

Yes, you did answer the questions. YOu said that there are uncultivated land, and unemployed poor people. According to TJ, those two conditions were a violation of natural rights and justified the govt having a progressive tax on property

tell me....WHEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, HAS THERE NOT BEEN uncultivated land, and unemployed poor people?


false ......jefferson and the other founders was not in favor of progressives taxes.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

 

[Master PO]

Just reposting some posts as a reminder to Ernst, who seems to have forgotten that he asked for evidence that the Framers spoke in support of a progressive tax system

The TJ quote I have posted several times shows that TJ supported a progressive tax under certain conditions, and that even Ernst agrees that those conditions apply today in the US

this is false!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120626163313AAxc2zJ

"The property of this country [FRANCE]is absolutely concentred in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards... I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on."

 

[Master PO]

Thomas Jefferson--Direct taxation was to be avoided, this could be done by avoiding expense that are not necessary. when merely by avoiding false objects of expense we are able, without a direct tax, without internal taxes, and without borrowing to make large and effectual payments toward the discharge of our public debt and the emancipation of our posterity from that mortal canker, it is an encouragement, fellow citizens, of the highest order to proceed as we have begun in substituting economy for taxation, and in pursuing what is useful for a nation placed as we are, rather than what is practiced by others under different circumstances.


Jefferson’s letters and original writings on taxes in the USA

1787 to James Madison about the issue of taxes:

…the fundamental principle, that the people are not to be taxed

Jefferson’s letter to John Jay in 1789 (August 27th):

The embarrassments of the government, for want of money, are extreme.

What does this seem like to you? If you can find Jefferson quotes to the contrary please let me know. Why does the current President not understand this?

Jefferson when on to write to John Taylor in 1789:

I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution. I would be willing to depend on that alone for the reduction of the administration of our government to the genuine principles of its constitution; I mean an additional article, taking from the federal government the power of borrowing.

In 1799 Jefferson when on to Edmund Pendelton about:

the disgusting particularities of the direct tax.

In 1801 to John Dickerson Thomas Jefferson wrote on taxes:

You will perhaps have been alarmed, as some have been, at the proposition to abolish the whole of the internal taxes. But it is perfectly safe. They are under a million of dollars, and we can economize the government two or three millions a year.



Thomas Jefferson on taxes

 

[Master PO]

I am satisfied to merely point out the inanity of your beliefs

you call it insane, becuase you want the federal government to act on your wants and desires, and that is not law.

States can not give the federal govt any power to act. Only the constitution can.

wrong a state has powers, if i grant the federal government, authority to act, within my state powers they can......becuase i grant them authority.

Where does the constitution say that the feds have "total control" over foriegn affairs?

the powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.


No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, [federal power]lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

 

[American]

Borrowing does not damage your credit, defaulting does.

Everyone knows that.

You want other people not even living yet to pay for **** you want today. That makes you a thief if you support it.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You want other people not even living yet to pay for **** you want today. That makes you a thief if you support it.

Not only is this a non-sequitur (it does not address your faulty view on what damages a credit rating) it totally ignores that US govt debt has been paid by numerous generations who had no say in it.

Let review, you know nothing about credit, you know nothing about debt......and you don't recognize a non-sequitur.

You are a triple threat.

 

[iguanaman]

You want other people not even living yet to pay for **** you want today. That makes you a thief if you support it.

Just like we payed for our grandparents debt from WWII? Were they thieves also?
No one is going to pay back the national debt EVER. Get that thru your head, you will feel much better.

 

[sangha]

tell me....WHEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, HAS THERE NOT BEEN uncultivated land, and unemployed poor people?

Which is a violation of natural rights

false ......jefferson and the other founders was not in favor of progressives taxes.

TJ's own words prove you wrong.

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.

 

[sangha]

this is false!

Why do conservatives reject founding father Thomas Jefferson's idea of progressive taxation? - Yahoo! Answers

"The property of this country is absolutely concentred in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards... I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on."

Yes, the words "any country" means "only in France"

 

[Master PO]

Which is a violation of natural rights.

how?......... explain it too me?....i would love for you to explain natural rights to me.

TJ's own words prove you wrong.

really, i guess you missed his words...i posted

 

[sangha]

how?......... explain it too me?....i would love for you to explain natural rights to me.

TJ explained it.

I'm not surprised you don't understand what the Framers said or believed

 

[Master PO]

Yes, the words "any country" means "only in France"

did not say that, your out of context again........do you see the word France ,next to "any country"........no.

please explain that since the founding of the u.s. there have been uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, and how our nation started off with a natural rights problem.

 

[Master PO]

TJ explained it.

I'm not surprised you don't understand what the Framers said or believed

i did not ask that ,since you seem so skilled at gleaning what jefferson says, ...then you must have the knowledge to explain natural rights, .... go ahead i am waiting...explain.

 

[Master PO]

TJ explained it.

I'm not surprised you don't understand what the Framers said or believed

Thomas Jefferson--Direct taxation was to be avoided, this could be done by avoiding expense that are not necessary. when merely by avoiding false objects of expense we are able, without a direct tax, without internal taxes, and without borrowing to make large and effectual payments toward the discharge of our public debt and the emancipation of our posterity from that mortal canker, it is an encouragement, fellow citizens, of the highest order to proceed as we have begun in substituting economy for taxation, and in pursuing what is useful for a nation placed as we are, rather than what is practiced by others under different circumstances.


Jefferson’s letters and original writings on taxes in the USA

1787 to James Madison about the issue of taxes:

…the fundamental principle, that the people are not to be taxed

Jefferson’s letter to John Jay in 1789 (August 27th):

The embarrassments of the government, for want of money, are extreme.

What does this seem like to you? If you can find Jefferson quotes to the contrary please let me know. Why does the current President not understand this?

Jefferson when on to write to John Taylor in 1789:

I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution. I would be willing to depend on that alone for the reduction of the administration of our government to the genuine principles of its constitution; I mean an additional article, taking from the federal government the power of borrowing.

In 1799 Jefferson when on to Edmund Pendelton about:

the disgusting particularities of the direct tax.

In 1801 to John Dickerson Thomas Jefferson wrote on taxes:

You will perhaps have been alarmed, as some have been, at the proposition to abolish the whole of the internal taxes. But it is perfectly safe. They are under a million of dollars, and we can economize the government two or three millions a year.



Thomas Jefferson on taxes

 

[American]

Just like we payed for our grandparents debt from WWII? Were they thieves also?
No one is going to pay back the national debt EVER. Get that thru your head, you will feel much better.

With an attitude like that, you've admitted you're a thief. It's hard to believe that some people haven't gotten so selfish they couldn't care less who pays their wants.

 

[American]

Not only is this a non-sequitur (it does not address your faulty view on what damages a credit rating) it totally ignores that US govt debt has been paid by numerous generations who had no say in it.

Let review, you know nothing about credit, you know nothing about debt......and you don't recognize a non-sequitur.

You are a triple threat.

Oooooh, I'm a TRIPLE threat. I sure hope so. Your problem is that you can't see what's wrong with $17T of debt when you have a $16T GDP, or that you can't borrow more and more forever and ever.

 

[iguanaman]

With an attitude like that, you've admitted you're a thief. It's hard to believe that some people haven't gotten so selfish they couldn't care less who pays their wants.

So our Grandparents are thieves too. In fact just about EVERY nation has debt they don't plan on paying back so we are all thieves. It is not thievery to borrow for he future, it is good Govt.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Oooooh, I'm a TRIPLE threat. I sure hope so.

You hope you are wrong 3 times over? OK.

Your problem is that you can't see what's wrong with $17T of debt when you have a $16T GDP, or that you can't borrow more and more forever and ever.

Is this you trying to fix your faulty view on what damages ones credit rating?

 

[American]

So our Grandparents are thieves too. In fact just about EVERY nation has debt they don't plan on paying back so we are all thieves. It is not thievery to borrow for he future, it is good Govt.

Yup, if our grandparents demanded more than they should rightly get, then they are thieves as well.

 

[dhlocker]

[snip]

Jefferson’s letters and original writings on taxes in the USA

1787 to James Madison about the issue of taxes:

…the fundamental principle, that the people are not to be taxed

[snip]

What does this seem like to you? If you can find Jefferson quotes to the contrary please let me know. Why does the current President not understand this?

[snip]

It would be poor to quote Mr Jefferson's position on taxation in such a manner as to posit something that differs so from his message. I hereby offer more of that quote: yet this evil does not weigh against the good of preserving inviolate the fundamental principle that the people are not to be taxed but by representatives chosen immediately by themselves.

Nor did he oppose borrowing in its entirety: And whensoever we are destined to meet events which shall call forth all the energies of our countrymen, we have the firmest reliance on those energies, and the comfort of leaving for calls like these the extraordinary resources of loans and internal taxes.

Where is the misunderstanding?

 

[Master PO]

It would be poor to quote Mr Jefferson's position on taxation in such a manner as to posit something that differs so from his message. I hereby offer more of that quote: yet this evil does not weigh against the good of preserving inviolate the fundamental principle that the people are not to be taxed but by representatives chosen immediately by themselves.

Nor did he oppose borrowing in its entirety: And whensoever we are destined to meet events which shall call forth all the energies of our countrymen, we have the firmest reliance on those energies, and the comfort of leaving for calls like these the extraordinary resources of loans and internal taxes.

Where is the misunderstanding?

first ...before i begin, can you give me a reference of your quotes...please.


the idea, that jefferson was for progressive taxes directly on the people, is simply crazy....which is the subject at hand.

the constitution was written not to tax the people directly,[ the constitution of the founders applied no force to the people] but taxes would be voluntary, however being that state powers are vast, a state can laid a direct tax on the people, it is within there powers.

as to borrowing, this is a power of the congress, article 1 section 8...."To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;