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Our governmental system is broken beyond repair.

Goshin

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1. Our government is filled brim-full with self-serving highly corrupt politicians of both parties. Those statesmen who truly want the best for the nation as a whole are a small minority.


2. The two parties have a stranglehold on elections... few candidates reach the level of running for national office without being corrupted, and achieving national office without the endorsement of one party or the other is nearly impossible.


3. Entrenched bureaucracies and special interests control more and more of our lives, stealing power that was supposed to go to elected officials theoretically accountable to the voters.


4. Apathy, ignorance and indifference among the populace has lead to less than half of eligible citizens actually voting in a given election. Given that we are so often faced with a choice between the lesser of two evils (two corrupt candidates from the major parties), it is hard to blame them, but it is an abrogation of the citizen's right and duty to participate in self-governance by the principles of our nation.


5. With a combination of biased partisanship and indifference to accuracy, the media cannot be trusted by the voting public.



In short, we're fracked. Frankly, we need to throw the existing system out and start over.

This is of course unlikely barring some kind of utterly disastrous crisis of national proportions far beyond anything we've seen in the past half century... but we might be heading that way if we continue as we are.

So what should we build in its place? A unified government with one law for all, or a loose federation of internally autonomous regions?

Either way, I think there are some principles we need to build the new system upon:


1. Professional politicians invariably result in a corrupted government. Simply put, when politics becomes a lifelong profession, the temptation to corruption becomes almost irresistible, and politicians cease to be "of the people" and become instead "the ruling class"... and as we've seen, they put themselves above the law.
So we don't want professional politicians... term limits are a start but we need to go beyond that. Power tends to corrupt; people who SEEK power tend to BE corrupt. I suggest establishing some baseline standards (ie a simple either/or standard might be: to be qualified for office, one must either have ONE of the following: an advanced degree (masters+) OR have a positive net worth {assets minus debts} exceeding 2x Per-cap GDP, or a minimum 8 years active duty military service... the former indicating intellectual achievement, the second indicating pragmatic financial achievement, the third showing willingness to serve the nation at risk of one's life). Of the qualified, select three candidates for each office at random, plus the incumbent if he is eligible for re-election, and let the People vote their preference. In this manner we retain an element of democratic participation but are more likely to avoid filling the government with self-serving power seekers, or the utterly incompetent. Those selected can refuse to run for office but it costs them their right to vote hereafter... allowing the truly disinterested a way to opt out, but encouraging those with a modicum of civic duty to participate. A limit of two terms in any given office, and not more than four terms in a lifetime. Candidates for President being drawn from those who have already served as Legislators or Governors; candidates for Governor having already served in State Legislature.

A separate set of more stringent requirements for appointment to the Supreme Court in similar random fashion, said court to be expanded to 15 Justices and term of office set at eight years.

2. All campaigns funded from the public treasury in equal measure, no contributions (private or corporate) allowed.

3. Retain the Bill of Rights, but reworded in modern legal English leaving no question as to meaning, which is to be construed in favor of individual rights.

4. No bureaucracy may regulate with force of law without specific Congressional authorization of the individual regulation; no upper-tier bureaucrat may hold his position more than eight years; any bureaucrat may be fired for any reason at any time by executive order or Congressional act.

5. No bill may pass without first being read. No rider may attach that isn't directly relevant to the bill's original purpose.

6. No troops shall engage in combat in a foreign country, except in direct self-defense of American lives, without a formal declaration of war by Congress.

7. Hold the media strictly accountable and liable for outright lies or blatant inaccuracies propagated without due diligence.



Yes, I know this is little more than a thought exercise, but I think it is an interesting one. Comments invited...
 

PIPEWRENCH

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What a lovely pipe-dream.:lamo

How do you intend on getting rid of the 2 corrupt parties and open the eyes of their blind followers. You are going up against multi-billionaires who have trillions of dollars worth of assets and cash at their disposal to stop you. They own the media from the local newspapers and radio to the network TV. We all have seen first hand how they black out or crush anyone that does not conform to their 2 party system. They have sold the 2 parties so well that most people vote and have no clue who is actually running and what they intend to do when in office. 1/2 the people in this country think rewarding criminals who circumvent our immigration laws should be rewarded. They also believe securing our borders and the American people deciding who comes into our country is crazy. Anyone that can sell that kind of ludicrous nonsense is an invincible opponent. I am currently arguing to keep our rights from being stripped on suspicion without proof or due process by our government and these same people. You will be lucky to not get drug from your house one day and imprisoned for even talking about being free the way things are going.
 

PirateMk1

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1. Our government is filled brim-full with self-serving highly corrupt politicians of both parties. Those statesmen who truly want the best for the nation as a whole are a small minority.
..........
In short, we're fracked. Frankly, we need to throw the existing system out and start over.

This is of course unlikely barring some kind of utterly disastrous crisis of national proportions far beyond anything we've seen in the past half century... but we might be heading that way if we continue as we are.

So what should we build in its place? A unified government with one law for all, or a loose federation of internally autonomous regions?

Either way, I think there are some principles we need to build the new system upon:


1. Professional politicians invariably result in a corrupted government. Simply put, when politics becomes a lifelong profession, the temptation to corruption becomes almost irresistible, and politicians cease to be "of the people" and become instead "the ruling class"... and as we've seen, they put themselves above the law.


A separate set of more stringent requirements for appointment to the Supreme Court in similar random fashion, said court to be expanded to 15 Justices and term of office set at eight years.

2. All campaigns funded from the public treasury in equal measure, no contributions (private or corporate) allowed.

3. Retain the Bill of Rights, but reworded in modern legal English leaving no question as to meaning, which is to be construed in favor of individual rights.

4. No bureaucracy may regulate with force of law without specific Congressional authorization of the individual regulation; no upper-tier bureaucrat may hold his position more than eight years; any bureaucrat may be fired for any reason at any time by executive order or Congressional act.

5. No bill may pass without first being read. No rider may attach that isn't directly relevant to the bill's original purpose.

6. No troops shall engage in combat in a foreign country, except in direct self-defense of American lives, without a formal declaration of war by Congress.

7. Hold the media strictly accountable and liable for outright lies or blatant inaccuracies propagated without due diligence.



Yes, I know this is little more than a thought exercise, but I think it is an interesting one. Comments invited...

An interesting proposition I would not oppose. I would suggest some tweaks.

1. The power to tax should be hard codified, ie whatever tax and rate and system we choose should be a constitutional amendment and the ability to change the rates or adjust the law except downward or for less burden should be exceptionally difficult to achieve. Part of the problem is money specifically the theft of it by the government.
2. Spending should also be hard codified. There should be a hard limit and shouldn't be exceeded except by extraordinary measures.
3.Instead of campaign financing by the public, just a pamphlet mailed to every citizen detailing whatever the candidate decides to detail about themselves and a website setup for them to use as they wish. If they wish to campaign its on them to raise funds. Just make the donation law such that the donation from any single person has to be recorded and publicized and the limit is very low like $20 dollars or something similar. No donations from an entity other than a US citizen. Violations egregious enough would result in disqualification from office and voting.

4. Reading the bill is great. I suggest, All bills final draft should be read into record on the floor. Further all final unalterable bill drafts after they are read into record, must for a minimum of thirty days, be available for the public at large to peruse and comment on should they so choose before a final vote to enact the bill, and send to the presidents desk. This would be for all bills and approvals except for the declaration of war. Further there should be a sunset provision on all laws and regulations enacted.

5. I am leery of this one (#7), as it is a first amendment issue. I tend to be an absolutist on the amendments. I think it should be left to the public at large to bring tort if they so desire and leave the government out of the picture.

6. On the subject of tort, I would suggest a couple minor modifications. 1 the standard for conviction should be the same as criminal, unanimous and beyond reasonable doubt. 2nd is the defendants may use whatever defense they fancy.

That's all for now. I will ponder some more, right after my latest attempt to take over the world. :mrgreen:
 

Goshin

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What a lovely pipe-dream.:lamo

How do you intend on getting rid of the 2 corrupt parties and open the eyes of their blind followers. You are going up against multi-billionaires who have trillions of dollars worth of assets and cash at their disposal to stop you. They own the media from the local newspapers and radio to the network TV. We all have seen first hand how they black out or crush anyone that does not conform to their 2 party system. They have sold the 2 parties so well that most people vote and have no clue who is actually running and what they intend to do when in office. 1/2 the people in this country think rewarding criminals who circumvent our immigration laws should be rewarded. They also believe securing our borders and the American people deciding who comes into our country is crazy. Anyone that can sell that kind of ludicrous nonsense is an invincible opponent. I am currently arguing to keep our rights from being stripped on suspicion without proof or due process by our government and these same people. You will be lucky to not get drug from your house one day and imprisoned for even talking about being free the way things are going.





Yeah, I said it was unlikely barring something really drastic happening.
 

Carjosse

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My only major issue is Number 1, you are perverting democracy. It is completely idiotic and will not change anything. It make the government completely ineffective and fill it with people who have no business being there as well as perverting democracy. You are just changing one political elite to another.
 

MaggieD

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1. Our government is filled brim-full with self-serving highly corrupt politicians of both parties. Those statesmen who truly want the best for the nation as a whole are a small minority.


2. The two parties have a stranglehold on elections... few candidates reach the level of running for national office without being corrupted, and achieving national office without the endorsement of one party or the other is nearly impossible.


3. Entrenched bureaucracies and special interests control more and more of our lives, stealing power that was supposed to go to elected officials theoretically accountable to the voters.


4. Apathy, ignorance and indifference among the populace has lead to less than half of eligible citizens actually voting in a given election. Given that we are so often faced with a choice between the lesser of two evils (two corrupt candidates from the major parties), it is hard to blame them, but it is an abrogation of the citizen's right and duty to participate in self-governance by the principles of our nation.


5. With a combination of biased partisanship and indifference to accuracy, the media cannot be trusted by the voting public.



In short, we're fracked. Frankly, we need to throw the existing system out and start over.

This is of course unlikely barring some kind of utterly disastrous crisis of national proportions far beyond anything we've seen in the past half century... but we might be heading that way if we continue as we are.

So what should we build in its place? A unified government with one law for all, or a loose federation of internally autonomous regions?

Either way, I think there are some principles we need to build the new system upon:


1. Professional politicians invariably result in a corrupted government. Simply put, when politics becomes a lifelong profession, the temptation to corruption becomes almost irresistible, and politicians cease to be "of the people" and become instead "the ruling class"... and as we've seen, they put themselves above the law.
So we don't want professional politicians... term limits are a start but we need to go beyond that. Power tends to corrupt; people who SEEK power tend to BE corrupt. I suggest establishing some baseline standards (ie a simple either/or standard might be: to be qualified for office, one must either have ONE of the following: an advanced degree (masters+) OR have a positive net worth {assets minus debts} exceeding 2x Per-cap GDP, or a minimum 8 years active duty military service... the former indicating intellectual achievement, the second indicating pragmatic financial achievement, the third showing willingness to serve the nation at risk of one's life). Of the qualified, select three candidates for each office at random, plus the incumbent if he is eligible for re-election, and let the People vote their preference. In this manner we retain an element of democratic participation but are more likely to avoid filling the government with self-serving power seekers, or the utterly incompetent. Those selected can refuse to run for office but it costs them their right to vote hereafter... allowing the truly disinterested a way to opt out, but encouraging those with a modicum of civic duty to participate. A limit of two terms in any given office, and not more than four terms in a lifetime. Candidates for President being drawn from those who have already served as Legislators or Governors; candidates for Governor having already served in State Legislature.

A separate set of more stringent requirements for appointment to the Supreme Court in similar random fashion, said court to be expanded to 15 Justices and term of office set at eight years.

2. All campaigns funded from the public treasury in equal measure, no contributions (private or corporate) allowed.

3. Retain the Bill of Rights, but reworded in modern legal English leaving no question as to meaning, which is to be construed in favor of individual rights.

4. No bureaucracy may regulate with force of law without specific Congressional authorization of the individual regulation; no upper-tier bureaucrat may hold his position more than eight years; any bureaucrat may be fired for any reason at any time by executive order or Congressional act.

5. No bill may pass without first being read. No rider may attach that isn't directly relevant to the bill's original purpose.

6. No troops shall engage in combat in a foreign country, except in direct self-defense of American lives, without a formal declaration of war by Congress.

7. Hold the media strictly accountable and liable for outright lies or blatant inaccuracies propagated without due diligence.



Yes, I know this is little more than a thought exercise, but I think it is an interesting one. Comments invited...

I sure don't disagree with much you've said here. Great ideas. Maybe someday...
 

Goshin

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My only major issue is Number 1, you are perverting democracy. It is completely idiotic and will not change anything. It make the government completely ineffective and fill it with people who have no business being there as well as perverting democracy. You are just changing one political elite to another.



Yes, it is somewhat of a departure from democracy per se... then again, we've NEVER been an actual democracy as such. Given that it is almost impossible to elect anyone to major office but a D or R, it isn't really any more restrictive than our current situation. It is, IMHO, one way to get around the fact that power-seekers tend to be easily corrupted.

I'm open to suggestions as to another way.
 

PirateMk1

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My only major issue is Number 1, you are perverting democracy. It is completely idiotic and will not change anything. It make the government completely ineffective and fill it with people who have no business being there as well as perverting democracy. You are just changing one political elite to another.

No he is firing them. I will take a randomly selected people out of the phone directory over the crap we have now. I don't want effective government unless we can get a consensus on what it is we want to do. Otherwise gridlock is good.
 

dimensionallava

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Yes, I know this is little more than a thought exercise, but I think it is an interesting one. Comments invited...

I disagree completely with all of it except suggestion #2 that ones okay i guess, the rest is either bad or wrong
 

Carjosse

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Yes, it is somewhat of a departure from democracy per se... then again, we've NEVER been an actual democracy as such. Given that it is almost impossible to elect anyone to major office but a D or R, it isn't really any more restrictive than our current situation. It is, IMHO, one way to get around the fact that power-seekers tend to be easily corrupted.

I'm open to suggestions as to another way.

If you are hiring someone do you just hire some random guy off the street that does not want to do it nor has any relevant skills or the guy who at the very least wants to do it and has experience doing something? A government whether you like it or not has to function and get things done and only people who want to do that will do it. It is the equivalent of making a fresh conscript into a general and expecting him to command an army or having a manager that does not want to be a manger. You need not only skilled people but motivated people. Do you want someone with a degree in art history negotiating trade deals?
 

Deuce

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"No regulation without specific congressional authorization" is one of two things:

1) Exactly what we have right now
2) Eliminating the entire purpose of regulatory agencies
 

Goshin

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If you are hiring someone do you just hire some random guy off the street that does not want to do it nor has any relevant skills or the guy who at the very least wants to do it and has experience doing something? A government whether you like it or not has to function and get things done and only people who want to do that will do it. It is the equivalent of making a fresh conscript into a general and expecting him to command an army or having a manager that does not want to be a manger. You need not only skilled people but motivated people. Do you want someone with a degree in art history negotiating trade deals?


This is why you get a minimum of three, if not four, options to vote for. Three chosen at random from the qualified, plus the incumbent if he's eligible (second term, no third term).

The problem with "professional" politicians is that corrupt people are drawn to power, and power-seekers tend to be very vulnerable to corruption.

Have you taken note of how stupid and uninformed many of our existing "professional" legislators are? Some of them think islands can sink like ships! Choosing them at random from a list of the qualified (as noted) could hardly be worse.
 

Goshin

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"No regulation without specific congressional authorization" is one of two things:

1) Exactly what we have right now
2) Eliminating the entire purpose of regulatory agencies



2.


No bureaucracy should be allowed to make a regulation, the violation of which can put an American in prison, unless Congress specifically authorizes it as such by passing it into law.


To do otherwise violates the principle of elected representatives making law, as opposed to appointed bureaucrats not accountable to the voters.
 

PirateMk1

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If you are hiring someone do you just hire some random guy off the street that does not want to do it nor has any relevant skills or the guy who at the very least wants to do it and has experience doing something? A government whether you like it or not has to function and get things done and only people who want to do that will do it. It is the equivalent of making a fresh conscript into a general and expecting him to command an army or having a manager that does not want to be a manger. You need not only skilled people but motivated people. Do you want someone with a degree in art history negotiating trade deals?

So far the Ivy League **** ups running the show now, have shown nothing that convinces me that we would NOT be better off with Goshins plan to select people, or hell even randomly selected people. To be honest it would probably be a step up. There are times I seriously wonder if the people in charge are deliberately screwing things up, I know our enemies would have a hell of a time trying to improve upon the destruction those overeducated, under experienced, idiots have wrought.
 

Goshin

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So far the Ivy League **** ups running the show now, have shown nothing that convinces me that we would NOT be better off with Goshins plan to select people, or hell even randomly selected people. To be honest it would probably be a step up. There are times I seriously wonder if the people in charge are deliberately screwing things up, I know our enemies would have a hell of a time trying to improve upon the destruction those overeducated, under experienced, idiots have wrought.


Thus the idea that you select from people with some kind of accomplishment or experience, such as an advanced degree, or a larger-than-average positive net worth (most of us have negative net worth due to debt), or eight years of service to the nation potentially at peril of one's life.

Self-selected professional politicians have not demonstrated a good track record in my lifetime.... those willing to seek power in the current system almost have to be willing to be corrupted to get there.
 

PirateMk1

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Thus the idea that you select from people with some kind of accomplishment or experience, such as an advanced degree, or a larger-than-average positive net worth (most of us have negative net worth due to debt), or eight years of service to the nation potentially at peril of one's life.

Self-selected professional politicians have not demonstrated a good track record in my lifetime.... those willing to seek power in the current system almost have to be willing to be corrupted to get there.

All I really want is somebody that has skin in the game and it is their hide too out there with mine and yours when they comeback to reality.
 

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What a lovely pipe-dream.:lamo

How do you intend on getting rid of the 2 corrupt parties and open the eyes of their blind followers. You are going up against multi-billionaires who have trillions of dollars worth of assets and cash at their disposal to stop you. They own the media from the local newspapers and radio to the network TV. We all have seen first hand how they black out or crush anyone that does not conform to their 2 party system. They have sold the 2 parties so well that most people vote and have no clue who is actually running and what they intend to do when in office. 1/2 the people in this country think rewarding criminals who circumvent our immigration laws should be rewarded. They also believe securing our borders and the American people deciding who comes into our country is crazy. Anyone that can sell that kind of ludicrous nonsense is an invincible opponent. I am currently arguing to keep our rights from being stripped on suspicion without proof or due process by our government and these same people. You will be lucky to not get drug from your house one day and imprisoned for even talking about being free the way things are going.

In my opinion it would require a mini revolution--a complete rebellion of the people that would vote. The Tea Party did their damndest to accomplish that, but both the establishment in Congress and the White House and those who support the establishment among the electorate, including the media, did everything in their power to demonize and destroy the Tea Party movement and they had some success with that.

But it is going to take a majority of us supporting that kind of movement to break the iron hold the permanent political class--professional politicians and bureaucats--have in Washington.
 

Velvet Elvis

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1. Professional politicians invariably result in a corrupted government. Simply put, when politics becomes a lifelong profession, the temptation to corruption becomes almost irresistible, and politicians cease to be "of the people" and become instead "the ruling class"... and as we've seen, they put themselves above the law.
So we don't want professional politicians... term limits are a start but we need to go beyond that. Power tends to corrupt; people who SEEK power tend to BE corrupt. I suggest establishing some baseline standards (ie a simple either/or standard might be: to be qualified for office, one must either have ONE of the following: an advanced degree (masters+) OR have a positive net worth {assets minus debts} exceeding 2x Per-cap GDP, or a minimum 8 years active duty military service... the former indicating intellectual achievement, the second indicating pragmatic financial achievement, the third showing willingness to serve the nation at risk of one's life). Of the qualified, select three candidates for each office at random, plus the incumbent if he is eligible for re-election, and let the People vote their preference. In this manner we retain an element of democratic participation but are more likely to avoid filling the government with self-serving power seekers, or the utterly incompetent. Those selected can refuse to run for office but it costs them their right to vote hereafter... allowing the truly disinterested a way to opt out, but encouraging those with a modicum of civic duty to participate. A limit of two terms in any given office, and not more than four terms in a lifetime. Candidates for President being drawn from those who have already served as Legislators or Governors; candidates for Governor having already served in State Legislature.

A separate set of more stringent requirements for appointment to the Supreme Court in similar random fashion, said court to be expanded to 15 Justices and term of office set at eight years.
I've always been a strong supporter of term limits. I have two issues with that though. 1) This sets up more cronyism, as 'current' politicians jockey their 'successors' for positions. It would further polarize the two major parties. 2) Time in office will be further wasted campaigning for successors. "Hey, I didn't have time to [insert campaign promise]...but if you elect my hand-picked successor, he'll finish it for you."

2. All campaigns funded from the public treasury in equal measure, no contributions (private or corporate) allowed.
I like this, but it would have to be audited. Who will audit? Who will audit the auditors? You KNOW politicians will be trying to buy off whomever they can.

3. Retain the Bill of Rights, but reworded in modern legal English leaving no question as to meaning, which is to be construed in favor of individual rights.
I see massive legal battles with this. The Bill of Rights would fill the library of congress it would be so wordy.

5. No bill may pass without first being read. No rider may attach that isn't directly relevant to the bill's original purpose.
You can lead a horse to water....

6. No troops shall engage in combat in a foreign country, except in direct self-defense of American lives, without a formal declaration of war by Congress.
I'm ok with this, but America has non-human interests that need to be protected as well.

7. Hold the media strictly accountable and liable for outright lies or blatant inaccuracies propagated without due diligence.
Pipe dream. The media is bought and sold like a slave, and Big Government is the 'massa.' Even non-mainstream media is excessively biased.

My addition would be an amendment that clearly outlines the concept that STATES' laws will always trump (no pun intended) FEDERAL laws, when available. Federal law cannot force its will against these states' laws unless through formal elections of the people.
 

Goshin

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I've always been a strong supporter of term limits. I have two issues with that though. 1) This sets up more cronyism, as 'current' politicians jockey their 'successors' for positions. It would further polarize the two major parties. 2) Time in office will be further wasted campaigning for successors. "Hey, I didn't have time to [insert campaign promise]...but if you elect my hand-picked successor, he'll finish it for you."

e.


Miscommunication. Nobody gets to hand-pick their successor. It is random.
 

Risky Thicket

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Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” ~ Thomas Jefferson


Tyranny is what takes place in Washington today. Both ruling parties.
 

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youuuuuuuuuuur title sugests an ignorance of our hidtory. We have been a fractious bunch for as long as we have been a country. Do you know hoe Hamilton died?
 

Deuce

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2.


No bureaucracy should be allowed to make a regulation, the violation of which can put an American in prison, unless Congress specifically authorizes it as such by passing it into law.


To do otherwise violates the principle of elected representatives making law, as opposed to appointed bureaucrats not accountable to the voters.

Sounds like a fine principle except Congress can't possibly be arsed to come up with a vote for every single thing an executive agency wants to do. Not to mention being mostly unqualified to make decisions about fields they know nothing about. Oh, but your plan is different: only the wealthy and well-educated are allowed to be elected. So different than what we have today! :roll:
 

Renae

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(HAD TO SHORTEN CAUSE YOU BROKE THE 5k LIMIT GOSHIN.)

Yes, I know this is little more than a thought exercise, but I think it is an interesting one. Comments invited...

Blame the true holders of power for giving up their power and forgoing their duty in favor of handouts and "entitlements"
 

Jetboogieman

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Blame the true holders of power for giving up their power and forgoing their duty in favor of handouts and "entitlements"

Oh please :roll:

America is not in trouble because it gives a pittance to poor people.

It's anarchists and misguided idiots, that legalized corruption in government through citizens united that has lead to the true downfall.

Unchecked and predatory capitalism, that's Americas problem.

Not SNAP and SS.
 

Renae

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Oh please :roll:

America is not in trouble because it gives a pittance to poor people.

It's anarchists and misguided idiots, that legalized corruption in government through citizens united that has lead to the true downfall.

Unchecked and predatory capitalism, that's Americas problem.

Not SNAP and SS.

Thank you for your input on this thread, we value even the least accurate posting as it helps give a greater picture to what's wrong with this world. Even the least of us can contribute in their own small way, thank you for your, well very small contribution. Bye now! :2wave:
 
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