Osama Bin Laden. Did the White House just give up?

[Iriemon]

I really dont think people stop to try and consider just how difficult it is to find this one guy.

give me a dime....Ill paint it red......and hide it on an 18 hole golf course (not nearly the size of the countries this guy could be hiding in huh?) and lets see how long it takes you to find it.

Good analogy of Afganistan. But put 1000 guys on the golf course and your chance of finding it are pretty good.

 

[tecoyah]

Good analogy of Afganistan. But put 1000 guys on the golf course and your chance of finding it are pretty good.

Or 10,000 guys with metal detectors.....the point is, it often looks as if we simply do not care to find him, and our President stating he is unimportant does not help in the least.

 

[Iriemon]

I would agree completely, if it werent for the fact that your assertion we have stopped looking for Bin Laden is completely unfounded and nothing more than an opinion.

The president is the one who said he is not that concerned about him.

yes the action in Iraq has been expensive. no one ever said the war on terror would be cheap.

Actually, they did. New York Times, 2/2/03: The administration’s top budget official [Mitch Daniels] estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion.

and we all also knew the war on terror would cost American soldiers their lives. after all, they did volunteer for it.

My guess is there are some reservists who would challenge this assertion.

and yes, we destroyed a tyranical government responsible for using WMDs on its own people (you know, the WMDs the left now claims dont exist) rape rooms, tossing people off buildings, invading its neighbors, ignoring countless resolutions, breaking a peace treaty, firing on U.S. war planes.....yeah, you mean THAT government?

I thought we were fighting a war on terror. Not cleansing the world of petty dictators.

 

[MSgt]

I am sorry to show direspect Sarge....but it needs to be said. The likelyhood of an undeployed, non commisioned , closed minded soldier having more information, and a better ubderstanding of the implications layed out in our failure to apprehend Bin Laden are quite slim. If by chance you showed some level of original thought, rather than blind adherence to the military line things might be different, but alas they are not. Even your own CIC has made it clear Osama is not a priority, shortly after rumors of his escape from special forces in Afganistan were spread about.
Your claims that people here have no understanding of the Middle east, terrorism, or threat are somewhat rediculous (though I am sure you know the fear far better than we do). Again I am sorry but, simply because you have "Been There" does not make you some sort of expert on middle east policy. Granted some here show a Bias against this war....and are critical of policy and direction, and may even be lacking in critical Data to form a clean picture.....but you are Biased as well.
If you really think Bin Laden needs to be killed......I have one simple question for you:


Why cant the most Powerful and Advanced Military in the world....Kill one Man on a Mule?

Because we are not omnipresent and we do not have an all seeing eye to give us perfect locations. Sattelite pictures do not give perfect coordinates to individuals unless we know where that individual is. He is surrounded by men who are loyal to the death. He knows his country and those mountain ranges with intimacy. We don't even know if he is even alive. In the mean time, we are searching for a ghost and spending money and man power doing it. The only way to get into many areas in those mountains is by walking or by flying. Because there are so many crevices, tight canyons, and long bottle necks, any attempt to get in is deadly. You see, these all act as ambush sights. Even helicopters must fly through them, because they can only fly so high. Remember the two helos that got shot down earlier this year? This would have been an attempt to fly through one of the thousands of areas like this. This would be more of that critical ignorance I scoffed at earlier. :roll:

Expert? I've more than been there. I've studied it for a decade. I, presently, work at a higher HQ, where they crunch numbers and deal with higher intel and planning reports. I see the deployed units. I know the locations. I've been to 6 countries within the Middle East and have conducted a plethora of study for other individuals. I have seen combat in Somalia, consulted in Ethiopia, seen combat in Iraq, and I am scheduled for Afghanistan in April. I currently write commentaries. I have a book not yet published, because I have enough material for two books and have been having trouble cutting it down. Expert? I never claimed to be an expert. There are people that go to school to learn the things I experience. They would be the "experts."

Original thought? Bright one, where do you think this President has gotten all of his verbiage? He has gotten it from the largely ignored military. The same military that has been warning about Bin Ladden since the mid 80's. The same military that has been warning of the future problems that will come out of this civilization if left unchecked since the early 90's. Clinton knew it. He just didn't act on it. He left it for the next guy to start. It will be in no way finished with this President. Afghanistan and Iraq do not constitute the bulk of what is necessary in this "war on terror." Al-Queda, Bin Laden, Saddam, Khudafi, and plenty of others are mere symptoms of decay.

The President is right. He is not a priority. He is one man. We'll get him when we get him. His "cause" has been deeply hurt due to our actions and due to his own people's actions. With every new attack on Muslim civillians and the more Muslims find out about it, he is making more enemies. The Muslims in the Middle East will not support America, but steadily they are not supporting Al-Queda either. Ask the seperated Sunni of Iraq that used to collaborate with Al-Queda forces before the last few months. Ask the people of Jordan, Kuwait, and Afghanistan. There is a faction in Syria that do not approve of Zarqawi and agree to Bush's want for change in the Middle East, but do not want us in their country. These individuals (reformacists) are being locked up or running for their lives for speaking against the reigning Baathist Party. With Bin Ladden's death, terrorism will not end and this civilization that acts as a recruitment pool for organizations everywhere will not cease to be oppressed. You are looking for quick and immediate fixes where there are none. Bin Laden has not been forgotten. He is simply not the source of Islamic extremism.

Rediculous? Show us. Show me what you know about terrorism. Tell me of the different category of terrorists. Tell me of the terrorists in Indonesia. Tell me of the Arab elite mentality. Tell me about our foreign policy in the Middle East and what and why it's involvement has helped along the social problems in this region. Tell me about the social issues inside Syria and Iran. Tell me why the intel is not calling for a ground assault on Iran. Tell me about the oppression that is region wide. Tell me about Bin Laden and what kind of man he his.

Why don't you tell me again about how "the likelyhood of an undeployed, non commisioned, closed minded soldier having more information, and a better understanding of the implications layed out in our failure to apprehend Bin Laden are quite slim." -by the way, it's Staff Non-Commissioned and I'm not a "soldier."

 

[MSgt]

There is no doubt that finding Bin Laden will be near impossible, but the important thing is to keep on searching. Instead, the government has decided to invade a completely different country. This action has cost billions of dollars, thousands of young Americans lives, and a complete destruction of a country's government, and we still have made no progress in the search for Bin Laden.

Yes, it truley is a shame that Saddam's government is no more. :roll:

Iraq was the only country in the Middle East that could not bring about change on it's own.

 

[MSgt]

Well, your example doesn't work because it doesn't take in the nickels and pennies which are following the leadership of the dime. Your dime isn't also moving around on the golf course making video statements and somehow releasing them to the public.

And when was the last video statement?

 

[MSgt]

Sorry -- I may be wrong. I'm sure American bombs and bullets haven't killed any Iraqis. What is the official US government count on the number of Iraqi deaths caused by American fire?



The "individuals that do" have proven they don't have a clue as to what the hell they are doing either. Either that or they have been just intentionally misleading the American public all along.

But this is another pesky problem with our democracy. Civilians ultimately control the government and the military. Damn. Think how much fun it would be if you didn't have that damned civilian oversight.

Well, since your "30,000" is no where near accurate, I would say your back peddling is moot now.

Misleading? Of course you have been misled. Do you think any of you know what is in your best interest? Do you think the President of the United States should get on international TV and announce that the true source of terrorism is a failing civilization? That the true source of Islamic extremist is that they adhere to a blasphemous version of Islam started up by the Arab elite and preached to the young as a tool of control? Should he tell the world that blame is the narcotic of choice in the Middle East and we are used as a scapegoat by Islamic governments? Wouldn't go very far with relations with the Sauds and your gas tank would it? Why do you think he hammered at the ideal of WMD inside Iraq? You'd rather watch TV and criticize everything and then complain when results aren't quick enough. Most things that occur all over the world, you don't need to know and don't know. Misled? Are you this obtuse?

Yes, it's too bad our civillians aren't running the show. Then they could do for themselves and have a better understanding beyond their ignorance, instead of bleeding off of other men's efforts. Oh wait..the civilians are there. They're called the National Guard. And they do run the show. They ignored every attack on the military througout the 90's and then voted us to go kill for them in Iraq. :roll:

 

[MSgt]

Or 10,000 guys with metal detectors.....the point is, it often looks as if we simply do not care to find him, and our President stating he is unimportant does not help in the least.

It's amazing how you people scoff and dismiss everything the man say's as a lie until he say's something that makes you salivate and you parade around like it's gospel when it suits your purpose.

It doesn't matter what it "looks" like. Why don't you call up the media and ask them why all of their cameras are located in Iraq instead of Afghanistan? Things might "look" different for you if they were.:roll:

 

[DivineComedy]

I really dont think people stop to try and consider just how difficult it is to find this one guy.

give me a dime....Ill paint it red......and hide it on an 18 hole golf course (not nearly the size of the countries this guy could be hiding in huh?) and lets see how long it takes you to find it.

I think the bullet that killed Vince Foster is a better one to look for, don‘t you think? They can put it next to the Civil War artifacts that were found.

How long did it take for the police to catch the ONE “terrorist who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro?”

It really isn’t that hard to elude the police while traipsing around in a friendly swamp.

The “liberals” complain about every door busted down by our troops in a foreign country, giving aid and comfort to anybody fighting out of uniform by saying they would do the same, all while demanding that foreign terrorists at war with us get rights to habeas corpus, and still claim we don’t have enough troops to catch ONE terrorist in a foreign country. NUTS!

Maybe the French could send in Inspector Clouseau, if they aren’t too busy with all those cars that are unsafe at any speed.

How long will it take Jordan to catch Abu Musab Zarqawi, again? Now let’s see, what hotel was he tried in absentia for trying to blow up in 1999?

 

[shuamort]

And when was the last video statement?

Bin Laden was last seen alive in a video recording addressed to the American people ahead of last November's presidential election.

Which is more recent than the dime's press conference in which McClellan denied a customer change for the parking meter without a purchase.

 

[MSgt]

The president is the one who said he is not that concerned about him.

I guess that means we stopped looking.

Actually, they did. New York Times, 2/2/03: The administration’s top budget official [Mitch Daniels] estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion.

Funny. You would be the same person to complain and "use" the troops "lack of equipment" as a granstanding position against the administration. Completely dismissing that a lot of that money has gone to us. We were not properly equipped before Afghanistan.

My guess is there are some reservists who would challenge this assertion.

Yes, it's too bad their free ride got disrupted and they had to do what they signed up for. Sucks to be them.

I thought we were fighting a war on terror. Not cleansing the world of petty dictators.

He exported his terror to another country and he exported terror upon another through Palestinians. Apparently, you are not aware (or choose not to) of what this "war on terror" is about. He was a symbol of strength to the Muslim world. He defied the (useless) UN and snubbed his nose at the great satan and got away with it for over a decade. His country was the only country that could not change on it's own. His country gave us tactical location for Syria and Iran. His country was the very representation of the oppression that runs throughout the Middle East that is the problem behind Islamic extremism. He was every bit a symptom as Bin Laden and he was every bit a part of this "War on Terror."

 

[teacher]

I vote just let him die helpless in a cave and spare us a wave of martyrs.

And in the meantime we gather intelligence on his orginization and twart his attempts of terror. Better to know your enemy and keeep an eye on him and his movements and the people he deals with. Learn the structure of his orginization. Kill him and someone we don't know may assume leadership. Basic cold war intelligence SOP.

How little you people know.

Amazing ain't it?

 

[MSgt]

Bin Laden was last seen alive in a video recording addressed to the American people ahead of last November's presidential election.

Which is more recent than the dime's press conference in which McClellan denied a customer change for the parking meter without a purchase.

So well over a year? And was it authentic? Did he finally show proof of "present" life?

In the mean time, under 19,000 troops (soldiers and Marines) and over 25,000 Afghani military and police are looking for one individual in a mountain range that is a certain death trap in an overwhelming amount of places. Yeah, we forgot about him.

 

[shuamort]

So well over a year? And was it authentic? Did he finally show proof of "present" life?

Are you suggesting it was a rouse a la "Weekend at Bernies". Well, I know I wasn't laughing...at either one.

That being said, here's a transcript of the video with comments would date it such as:

So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.

SNIP

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.

 

[MSgt]

I think the bullet that killed Vince Foster is a better one to look for, don‘t you think? They can put it next to the Civil War artifacts that were found.

How long did it take for the police to catch the ONE “terrorist who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro?”

It really isn’t that hard to elude the police while traipsing around in a friendly swamp.

The “liberals” complain about every door busted down by our troops in a foreign country, giving aid and comfort to anybody fighting out of uniform by saying they would do the same, all while demanding that foreign terrorists at war with us get rights to habeas corpus, and still claim we don’t have enough troops to catch ONE terrorist in a foreign country. NUTS!

Maybe the French could send in Inspector Clouseau, if they aren’t too busy with all those cars that are unsafe at any speed.

How long will it take Jordan to catch Abu Musab Zarqawi, again? Now let’s see, what hotel was he tried in absentia for trying to blow up in 1999?

They like to bash and hate on an administration they don't like. In doing so, they will pull out the stops and spare no intelligent thought to the issues at hand. They will insulot every effort, criticize every action, and ramble off mindlessly any number that makes them feel better about how they have acted. Secretly (though some publicly) wish Iraq to fail miserably and Afghanistan to remain corrupt, which will only make the oppressed Middle East even worse. This way, they can parade around that they were right all along.

 

[MSgt]

Are you suggesting it was a rouse a la "Weekend at Bernies". Well, I know I wasn't laughing...at either one.

That being said, here's a transcript of the video with comments would date it such as:

There has been many sceptics as to when some of his videos were taped. Because of this world wide scepticism, wouldn't you think he would show the Muslim world that their hero still lives to defy the great Satan by showing a newspaper or referencing present day occurrences? I remember that video. That was quite some time ago.

Zarqawi is massacring his "cause". Wouldn't you think he would make another video?

 

[MSgt]

lol, that middle part reminds me of something...hmmm, the elite using a bastardized form of a religion to control the young and poor? hmmmm....

Yes..I too have made note of some comical similarities. :lol: But, as long as one isn't skyjacking airplanes and dropping them on Muslim cities or it's people aren't organizing terror groups to go and murder Muslim civilians, I figure he just said something that was better kept to himself.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Well, your example doesn't work because it doesn't take in the nickels and pennies which are following the leadership of the dime. Your dime isn't also moving around on the golf course making video statements and somehow releasing them to the public.

this only proves my point further. the dime would be in the same spot, day in and day out, and you STILL COULDNT FIND IT.

Bin Laden can move daily....making it even more difficult to locate him

 

[shuamort]

this only proves my point further. the dime would be in the same spot, day in and day out, and you STILL COULDNT FIND IT.

Bin Laden can move daily....making it even more difficult to locate him

Your point hasn't been proven further. You just jump to the illogical conclusion that it couldn't be found. You have to explain B when you jump from A to C.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Your point hasn't been proven further. You just jump to the illogical conclusion that it couldn't be found. You have to explain B when you jump from A to C.

illogical? are you volunteering to try and see if you can prove me wrong?

my point is clear. to think a single man is no problem to find in an area the size we are talking about, in the type of terrain we are talking about is what is illogical.

let me know which golf course you want to use. ive never played pebble beach in the summer time!!!!

 

[shuamort]

illogical? are you volunteering to try and see if you can prove me wrong?

my point is clear. to think a single man is no problem to find in an area the size we are talking about, in the type of terrain we are talking about is what is illogical.

let me know which golf course you want to use. ive never played pebble beach in the summer time!!!!

I never claimed it would be easy. There's a problem though when the dime has threatened terrorism and the leader has not gone after this dime and just moved to a different country (club). Don't ya think?

Of course, if you wanna wager on golf, count me in. :mrgreen:

 

[ProudAmerican]

I never claimed it would be easy. There's a problem though when the dime has threatened terrorism and the leader has not gone after this dime and just moved to a different country (club). Don't ya think?

Of course, if you wanna wager on golf, count me in. :mrgreen:

you acusation has in no way been proven. you are stating an unfounded opinioin.

this constant myth put forward by some people that we cant look for bin laden while also fighting terrorists in Iraq is nonsense.

PLEASE tell me where you got this false information that we have stopped searching for Bin Laden!!

and Id never wager on golf as far as my playing ability.....however, watching you look for a dime would be a hoot and a half.

 

[shuamort]

you acusation has in no way been proven. you are stating an unfounded opinioin.

this constant myth put forward by some people that we cant look for bin laden while also fighting terrorists in Iraq is nonsense.

PLEASE tell me where you got this false information that we have stopped searching for Bin Laden!!

and Id never wager on golf as far as my playing ability.....however, watching you look for a dime would be a hoot and a half.

But four days later, on 10 April 2002, army secretary Thomas White said that one of America’s ‘strategic objectives’ in Afghanistan is ‘to get bin Laden…and we are pursuing that’ 3. Asked if the war on terror could only be hailed a success once bin Laden was found, White said yes – claiming that ‘no one said it was going to be easy’ 4.

‘I truly am not that concerned about him’, said President George W Bush on 13 March 2002, after being asked the million-dollar question ‘where is bin Laden?’ once too often 5.

 

[MSgt]

But four days later, on 10 April 2002, army secretary Thomas White said that one of America’s ‘strategic objectives’ in Afghanistan is ‘to get bin Laden…and we are pursuing that’ 3. Asked if the war on terror could only be hailed a success once bin Laden was found, White said yes – claiming that ‘no one said it was going to be easy’ 4.

‘I truly am not that concerned about him’, said President George W Bush on 13 March 2002, after being asked the million-dollar question ‘where is bin Laden?’ once too often 5.

Way to use a link from 2002. Well before, anyone had a clue what this war on terror was going to entail.:roll:

What does this tell you about Army seniors shooting their mouths off? Haven't you seen enough of them parading their stars around professing to know what they are talking about? It's almost comical to watch. They never miss an opportunity to get themselves on TV. How many Marine Generals get on TV and spew their opinions?

Thomas White gave an opinion. A very moronic opinion at that, and I'm sure now he looks back and realizes that saying the "capture of Bin Laden would hail the war on terror a success" is sheer stupidity. This is obviously an individual not studied up on what the military he was affiliated with has known for a loooong time. Without dealing with the civilization that has spawned one terrorist and one terrorist group after another over the past 40 years, arresting one man will do nothing. I wouldn't go around quoting an individual mired in corruptness while he headed Enron. What he suggested is like someone else suggesting that arresting the drug dealer down the street will hail our war on drugs a success. Rediculous.

 

[shuamort]

Well, I had to since no one's talking about Bin Laden anymore. Go figure, the point of my thread.