Opinion of Tony Blair

[SocialDemocrat]

Mostly awful: responsible for ideological destruction of the British left, and eventually the international left (along with Clinton), supported the War in Iraq, holds an abominable record on civil liberties, and made unnecessary cuts to welfare. The introduction of a minimum wage was positive enough though.

 

[joG]

Mostly awful: responsible for ideological destruction of the British left, and eventually the international left (along with Clinton), supported the War in Iraq, holds an abominable record on civil liberties, and made unnecessary cuts to welfare. The introduction of a minimum wage was positive enough though.

Sounds fine by me, except for the minimum wage. Where do you see a problem. The UK is doing much better than most of Europe.

 

[SocialDemocrat]

Sounds fine by me, except for the minimum wage. Where do you see a problem. The UK is doing much better than most of Europe.

Well, pretty much every center-left party in Europe, (with the exception of the Czech Republic and a select few others) have followed his path of abandoning social democratic principles in favor of implementing harsh austerity measures. If you value civil liberties at all, I would hope that you oppose this program that makes the U.S. look tame on surveillance. And there was no legitimate reason to invade Iraq.

 

[joG]

Well, pretty much every center-left party in Europe, (with the exception of the Czech Republic and a select few others) have followed his path of abandoning social democratic principles in favor of implementing harsh austerity measures. If you value civil liberties at all, I would hope that you oppose this program that makes the U.S. look tame on surveillance. And there was no legitimate reason to invade Iraq.

Oh. European populations are more closely monitored by their governments than generally perceived. It goes totally unnoticed that every person must register with government authorities, so that the police are continuously informed of their whereabouts.

 

[SocialDemocrat]

Oh. European populations are more closely monitored by their governments than generally perceived. It goes totally unnoticed that every person must register with government authorities, so that the police are continuously informed of their whereabouts.

Actually, Britain's surveillance is the one of the most pervasive on the continent, while most other European countries have better civil liberty records than the U.S.

 

[joG]

Actually, Britain's surveillance is the one of the most pervasive on the continent, while most other European countries have better civil liberty records than the U.S.

Lots of people like to say that the US has a bad record of civil liberty. I think that one can say that, but it reveals an odd slant of mind or selective evaluation of the facts. I am sure that the NSA, for instance, mines data much more widely and efficiently than say the German authorities, for whom it is explicitly illegal to monitor the data. What they seem to have done, was to grant access to the American agencies to the data flow and then get the forbidden fruit information from the US. Now that Snowden published this incriminating stuff, the German reaction is to rile against the Americans, though, the illegal infringement of citizen rights was by German authorities and the Americans were only doing, what the representatives of the Germans had allowed them to do.

Something like that is a rather substantial breach of civil rights by the local government. It is not registered as such by the local population, because the finger is pointed at others. In the US this is quite different and the civil rights issue with the US government is first page material. I have often found, when checking the indexes such as those you refer to, that the positive valuation of a country rested on this type of information asymmetry and that the reality was very different.

 

[Andalublue]

There are two Blairs to consider: the first was the Blair of the early days of New Labour (1993-2001) who was a typical centrist Labour politician, committed to the NHS, Education, education, education, and social justice. Then came 2001 and his conversion to the neo-con project, bullied by and supine in the face of overwhelming foreign coercion. Like the El Alamein effect in reverse, prior to 2001 he never lost a political argument, after it he never won one.

It's actually a bit of a shame that the roaring success of his first administration was almost entirely wiped out by the craven and dishonest way he used outright lies and scapegoating to kowtow to a US administration that was the antithesis of everything he stood for and achieved in his early years. When a Labour, supposedly socialist, minister refers to people seeking protection from political repression as 'the scum of Europe', and 'bogus' at almost every turn, you know that something's gone very wrong, that the party of the people has become its enemy.

The proof, if any more were needed, that Blair is neither a democrat nor a defender of human rights, is to look at his record since leaving office. What are we to make of his work on behalf of JP Morgan-Chase, the dictators of Kazakhstan and Egypt and his amassing of personal wealth to the tune of $100 million+?

I'm amongst those who'd like to see him on trial for war crimes. He's a rogue and a charlatan and I'm personally embarrassed that I vote for him in 1997.

 

[Ricatalian]

he was Bush's boy ... it doesn't get sadder than being Bush's boy ...

 

[Removable Mind]

he was Bush's boy ... it doesn't get sadder than being Bush's boy ...

I thought Bush was Rove's, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's boy. Didn't know that Bush had any boys?

Man, that is getting pretty low on the totem pole for Blair to be Bush's boy. Bet Cheney and Rumsfeld had a monogrammed collar on Blair, too. The leash had to be longer, of course.

 

[Ricatalian]

I thought Bush was Rove's, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's boy. Didn't know that Bush had any boys?

Man, that is getting pretty low on the totem pole for Blair to be Bush's boy. Bet Cheney and Rumsfeld had a monogrammed collar on Blair, too. The leash had to be longer, of course.

But Bush surprised us all on Scooter Libby, didn't he?

 

[Ricatalian]

Mostly awful: responsible for ideological destruction of the British left, and eventually the international left (along with Clinton), supported the War in Iraq, holds an abominable record on civil liberties, and made unnecessary cuts to welfare. The introduction of a minimum wage was positive enough though.

England's Clinton?

 

[Removable Mind]

But Bush surprised us all on Scooter Libby, didn't he?

Rumor had it that it was a love triangle problem. Rove told Bush...Scooter has to go...or he would go. Soooooooo...

Poor Scooter. But the White House staff chipped in and got him a year's supply of KY Jelly.

 

[Ricatalian]

Rumor had it that it was a love triangle problem. Rove told Bush...Scooter has to go...or he would go. Soooooooo...

Poor Scooter. But the White House staff chipped in and got him a year's supply of KY Jelly.

LOL d t (if you're wondering why I added the "d" and the "t", I got a message saying I needed at least five characters to post - LOL was too short ...)

 

[DB20]

Tony Blair = Globalist wanker!

 

[SocialDemocrat]

England's Clinton?

Essentially.

Lots of people like to say that the US has a bad record of civil liberty. I think that one can say that, but it reveals an odd slant of mind or selective evaluation of the facts. I am sure that the NSA, for instance, mines data much more widely and efficiently than say the German authorities, for whom it is explicitly illegal to monitor the data. What they seem to have done, was to grant access to the American agencies to the data flow and then get the forbidden fruit information from the US. Now that Snowden published this incriminating stuff, the German reaction is to rile against the Americans, though, the illegal infringement of citizen rights was by German authorities and the Americans were only doing, what the representatives of the Germans had allowed them to do.

Something like that is a rather substantial breach of civil rights by the local government. It is not registered as such by the local population, because the finger is pointed at others. In the US this is quite different and the civil rights issue with the US government is first page material. I have often found, when checking the indexes such as those you refer to, that the positive valuation of a country rested on this type of information asymmetry and that the reality was very different.

Allowing the the U.S. government to perform surveillance on your citizens would be a breach of civil liberties, but I don't think it is to the extent of what the U.S. has done, both domestically and in other nations. The green on the map I referenced was regarding countries with "little to no" surveillance, so I suppose the type of civil liberty breach you are referring to is still classified as minimal surveillance because the government itself did not perform.

 

[joG]

Essentially.



Allowing the the U.S. government to perform surveillance on your citizens would be a breach of civil liberties, but I don't think it is to the extent of what the U.S. has done, both domestically and in other nations. The green on the map I referenced was regarding countries with "little to no" surveillance, so I suppose the type of civil liberty breach you are referring to is still classified as minimal surveillance because the government itself did not perform.

I a not really sure I understand what you mean.

 

[SocialDemocrat]

I a not really sure I understand what you mean.

I don't think that what Germany has done regarding surveillance is anywhere near to the extent as large as the offenses committed by the United States (and Britain, since that's technically the topic of discussion here).

 

[joG]

I don't think that what Germany has done regarding surveillance is anywhere near to the extent as large as the offenses committed by the United States (and Britain, since that's technically the topic of discussion here).

That depends on the laws broken and the way the systems deal with it.

 

[NoC_T]

An unqualified piece of ****. An absolute twat.

His every furtive gesture is a pleasure to behold. His every haunted glance a marathon of joy.

You could have had Europe, mother****er. Now live out what remains of your wretched existence bathed perpetually in a cold sweat, as you awaken night after night screaming from nightmares of Bush's ****, you ****ing scoundrel.

 

[jimbo]

Mostly awful: responsible for ideological destruction of the British left, and eventually the international left (along with Clinton), supported the War in Iraq, holds an abominable record on civil liberties, and made unnecessary cuts to welfare. The introduction of a minimum wage was positive enough though.

I was going to vote neutral, but if he is responsible for the ideological destruction of the left, and made cuts to welfare, I vote positive.

Don't like his minimum wage stance, though.

 

[Andalublue]

An unqualified piece of ****. An absolute twat.

His every furtive gesture is a pleasure to behold. His every haunted glance a marathon of joy.

You could have had Europe, mother****er. Now live out what remains of your wretched existence bathed perpetually in a cold sweat, as you awaken night after night screaming from nightmares of Bush's ****, you ****ing scoundrel.

Scoundrel's about the very best word to describe him. Well said, Sir!