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"Open Skies" Treaty Withdrawal...

ModernDiogenes

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
 
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upsideguy

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Republicans getting even for Clinton's team removing 'W's from all of the keyboards as GW Bush assumed the presidency?

In all seriousness, at first blush, this seems to pretty egregious move. Its one thing to withdraw from a treaty, its quite another to do so right at the end of your administration and destroy government property so that the next administration can not pursue its own policy. I read about the withdrawal recently, but last night was the first time I learned that Trump ordered the destruction of the aircraft. I don't profess to fully understand the pro's and con's of being in the open skies agreement. At first blush it seems to me to be in everyone's interest to have that level of transparency between 'rival' nations as it minimizes misunderstandings, which are often the root of conflict. Again, however, its one thing to pull out of an agreement; its quite another to do so as a last act and destroy the bridge in the process.

If this is something that is more in Russia's interest than ours, well, ..... I do hope there is a good "study' (investigation) of all Trump's activities that favored Russian interests over US interests, cross-checked to his own personal financial interest. In others words, I do hope the DoJ finishes the counter-terrorism investigation that Mueller never did, for the sake of history.
 

ModernDiogenes

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I expect a short thread, because if you remove "whataboutism" from the Trump supporter's arsenal on this I don't see how they explain it, other than in terms that it is precisely what it looks like.
 

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
He should have pulled out of NATO two years ago.
But he should have offered the planes to someone who could use them.
This all just redemonstrates that America has no allies as long as Trumps lardass is parked in the Oval Office.
 

sanman

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
No, we gonna tell you what Obummer did, because if Trump's in Putin's hip pocket, then Obummer is in Putin's crotch pocket.

 

sanman

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How come you don't care for having "Open Skies" with China? Do you even understand that China's economy is 15X larger than Russia's, and that China is a much larger military power?

Get off your McCarthyite horse.
 

Rogue Valley

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No, we gonna tell you what Obummer did, because if Trump's in Putin's hip pocket, then Obummer is in Putin's crotch pocket.
:rolleyes: That is all they have is whataboutism, because they have no answers to the questions asked in the OP.

Trump and DeJoy destroyed hundreds of USPS automatic mail sorters, he wouldn't hesitate to destroy our Open Skies observation aircraft either.

Trump is a treasonous pig who will do as much damage as possible to the US on his way out the door.
 

ModernDiogenes

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No, we gonna tell you what Obummer did, because if Trump's in Putin's hip pocket, then Obummer is in Putin's crotch pocket.

Not an answer to any of my question.

Either answer them, state you do not know, or admit the suppositions are accurate.
 

ModernDiogenes

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He should have pulled out of NATO two years ago.
But he should have offered the planes to someone who could use them.
This all just redemonstrates that America has no allies as long as Trumps lardass is parked in the Oval Office.
That is an opinion, but you didn't suggest why weakening NATO by a US pull out benefits the US, nor did you touch on the other points [allowing Russia out of a deal that eliminates their deployment of intermediate ballistic missiles only benefits Russia, as does ending the US involvement in 'Open Skies, so how does that, if it is factual, not suggest Trump is a Putin puppet?.]
 

ModernDiogenes

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How come you don't care for having "Open Skies" with China? Do you even understand that China's economy is 15X larger than Russia's, and that China is a much larger military power?

Get off your McCarthyite horse.
Not an answer to any of my questions.

Either answer them, state you do not know, or admit the suppositions are accurate.
 

Grand Mal

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That is an opinion, but you didn't suggest why weakening NATO by a US pull out benefits the US, nor did you touch on the other points [allowing Russia out of a deal that eliminates their deployment of intermediate ballistic missiles only benefits Russia, as does ending the US involvement in 'Open Skies, so how does that, if it is factual, not suggest Trump is a Putin puppet?.]
Why should America stay in NATO and complain constantly about how other NATO countries don't spend enough on defense? The US Army has 34 facilities in Germany alone, one country, one service branch. There's hundreds of US military facilities scattered around the world that, along with the corporate welfare scheme called a military-industrial complex have driven American defense spending sky-high. Just stop spending so much. Pull out of NATO, bring everyone home from Europe. The Evil Empire doesn't exist anymore. America's biggest potential threat is a long way from the north Atlantic.
Putin now has exactly as much significance as he's given by other world leaders. There's no advantage to anyone in giving him more importance than he merits. Leave NATO to the countries that can actually benefit from It's mutual defense policy. So far that's only been invoked once, when America was attacked in 2001.
 

dcsports

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
Hard to evaluate the article. You didn't provide a quote, and it's locked behind a paywall.
 

dcsports

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?

It appears we announced the withdrawal in May (6 months ago), so this isn't the last minute 'burn down the house' move being betrayed. The reason being that Russia is violating the treaty in both disallowing flights over certain portions of it's territory (including near the Russian- Georgia border), and in using the treaty to create imagery for weapons guidance.

CNN Article

Official statement - May 21, 2020
 

ModernDiogenes

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Hard to evaluate the article. You didn't provide a quote, and it's locked behind a paywall.
OK, point taken, but its not like one can't Google "Trump, Open Skies" and find a myriad of other articles covering the same material. From any of multiple vantage points.

It appears we announced the withdrawal in May (6 months ago), so this isn't the last minute 'burn down the house' move being betrayed. The reason being that Russia is violating the treaty in both disallowing flights over certain portions of it's territory (including near the Russian- Georgia border), and in using the treaty to create imagery for weapons guidance.

CNN Article

Official statement - May 21, 2020
Which you apparently did.

That is one opinion, but I'd counter that while there is some truth to that the benefits of NATO to the US still out weight the deficits.

It does nothing to address the intermediate ballistic missile question I put forth, why we'd remotely consider not keeping an eye on Russian military movements, and whether all of this indicates Trump is in the bag for Putin?
 
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He's just trying to create a hellscape for Biden when he takes over as revenge for losing the election. Obviously bad, but we all knew he was going to do this.

Gonna be a long two months.
 

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Treaty had a max restriction on camera resolution of 30 cm. US Military satellites have a resolution of about 5 cm. (They use the same mirror size as the hubble space telescope).

Flights were nice for all those countries without spy satellites and the data was openly shared amongst treaty members.

this is no biggie and doesn't hurt national security nor alliance security.
 

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
He is literally bending us over and opening our rectums and inviting Vladimir to enter.
 

Athanasius68

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You Trump supporters are going to have to explain to me how Trump moving forward on removing the US from this treaty isn't the least patriotic act ever done by any sitting President in modern history?

How, when you add to it, that he is doubling down on it, as he walks out the door, by destroying the aircraft we use to do this monitoring of Russia's military movements so that Biden, when he assumes office, can not reinstitute the monitoring isn't give Putin precisely what he wants at the cost of US military preparedness and intelligence gathering?

Now, additionally, explain that this couple with our pulling out of the "Intermediate Ballistic Missile Treaty" ban isn't a one two punch that, as we lose our ability to do precisely the monitoring that would tell us if Russia was rolling out newly developed, upgraded, or existing intermediate ballistic missile systems, allows Russia to implement a whole new level of militarily based influence and control on all of Asia and Eastern Europe? How this doesn't negatively impact the entirety of Asia and Eastern Europe, and the US as well? [after all, we aren't the ones interested in intermediate ballistic missiles. We aren't planning nuking Canada or Mexico - our deterrent is in intercontinental ballistic missiles]?

Then, to this add Trumps actions that weaken NATO and answer how this isn't a TRIPLE WHAMMY that specifically benefits Russia and Vladimir Putin specifically? How it is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is solidly in Putin's hip pocket?

Do not answer by shifting to anyone or anything else. Don't tell me what "Obummer" did. Answer the direct questions stated as to Trump's actions by refuting the supposition that Trump's actions don't give Russia and Putin a leg up in Eastern Europe and Asia, why Trump would want to end a program that gives us permission to closer than satellite range in observe Russian military movements, reopen the cold war on the intermediate ballistic missile front, while weakening NATO and how that would ONLY be done by a US POTUS in Putin's employee?
Russia has violated the treaty for years-- not permitting flyovers of certain areas within Russia.
Meanwhile, the USA has much superior satellites-- its not as dependent upon flyovers as is Russia to observe.
In other words, withdrawing doesn't benefit Russia-- it benefits the USA.
 

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So how does keeping Russian planes out of USA airspace invite Russia to enter?
How does destroying very sophisticated surveillance aircraft not invite them to enter.
Why must this equipment be destroyed?
This alone isn't the sole factor, systematic destruction of our assets isn't either.
All of it taken together however...is.
 

Athanasius68

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How does destroying very sophisticated surveillance aircraft not invite them to enter.
Why must this equipment be destroyed?
This alone isn't the sole factor, systematic destruction of our assets isn't either.
All of it taken together however...is.
I am sorry--- I don't think you understand the agreement.
The deal was that Russian could fly across the USA over military bases ect to take pictures to monitor USA armed forces, nuclear stockpiles and so on and so forth.
In exchange, the USA could do the same.
Russia has been winging across the country for years.
But they have been restricting the USA from doing so.
Those planes were the planes used to fly over Russia, not to keep Russia from sending planes over the USA.

The question became, does the USA need to send planes over Russia to monitor that country? The answer is "no" because satellites can fly over and gather same information. Russia doesn't have the same capacity.
So why give Russia an opportunity in the USA?
 

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I am sorry--- I don't think you understand the agreement.
The deal was that Russian could fly across the USA over military bases ect to take pictures to monitor USA armed forces, nuclear stockpiles and so on and so forth.
In exchange, the USA could do the same.
Russia has been winging across the country for years.
But they have been restricting the USA from doing so.
Those planes were the planes used to fly over Russia, not to keep Russia from sending planes over the USA.

The question became, does the USA need to send planes over Russia to monitor that country? The answer is "no" because satellites can fly over and gather same information. Russia doesn't have the same capacity.
So why give Russia an opportunity in the USA?
I understand the Open Skies treaty perfectly.
My question is WHY DESTROY the PLANES?
Who benefits from destroying perfectly good sophisticated and expensive aircraft?

This is equal to Saddam setting the Kuwaiti oil fields ablaze on his way out.
That's how we're handling a decades old treaty, liquidating aircraft and
muzzling anyone and everyone associated with the treaty.
 

Athanasius68

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I understand the Open Skies treaty perfectly.
My question is WHY DESTROY the PLANES?
Who benefits from destroying perfectly good sophisticated and expensive aircraft?

This is equal to Saddam setting the Kuwaiti oil fields ablaze on his way out.
That's how we're handling a decades old treaty, liquidating aircraft and
muzzling anyone and everyone associated with the treaty.
They are old planes that no longer have any useful function.
 

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No, we gonna tell you what Obummer did, because if Trump's in Putin's hip pocket, then Obummer is in Putin's crotch pocket.

As always, I hope you arent doing this for free. Not because you are good at it, but because after 3 years of Trump's drama with Kim, one would think you'd have more sense than to do this.

You know people dont think adults agreeing to discuss something later with other adults isnt bad, dont you?

How did Obama tickle your patriotism bone?
 
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