OPEN QUESTION to AMERICANS...

[Middleground]

Sorry, Tucker, but just like I said to Maenad above (on the other end of the spectrum), making sweeping statements like talking about "how incompetent they all [Americans] are" doesn't help this conversation. It is ridiculous to suggest that a nation that has accomplished everything the United States has (economically, culturally, artistically, etc.) is filled with incompetent people. I can testify by life experience that this is FAR from the case!!

To your second point, I do worry that the quality of lowering intelligent dialogue in political circles is a distinct trend. And not a good trend. However, I don't think the United States has a monopoly on that direction. We have our share of "morons" here in Canada too.

To your final point, that "America is one of many great nations on Earth", I agree wholeheartedly!!! That was really my main point when I started this thread.

I shouldn't speak for Tucker, but I think his tongue was somewhat planted in cheek, with the first point. I think he was saying that American government has implanted a way of thinking that has been spoon fed to Americans for many decades (or longer?). America is one of the greatest nations on earth, but the goverment inspired jingoism breeds ignorance.

 

[Middleground]

Canadian Joe:

I think your OP was great and I thank you for bringing it up. I found some answers quite interesting and worth some thought, but unfortuntely a lot were quite disappointing (IMO). It's somewhat surprising to me, actually, since the folks who care enough to join a political board should have--I would think--more than the average knowledge on political/world affairs. But I digress. Like you, I do love a lot about Americans and their country. I have travelled to most states, enjoy a lot about American culture, and have many friends (and some relatives) who are from the US. But as a Canadian, I will never understand a few American ways of thinking, that no matter how hard I try, doubt I will be ever able to completely grasp:
1) The American love of guns.
2) American jingoism.

I tend to chalk it up to historical differences and leave it a that.

 

[Canadian Joe]

Canadian Joe:

I think your OP was great and I thank you for bringing it up. I found some answers quite interesting and worth some thought, but unfortuntely a lot were quite disappointing (IMO). It's somewhat surprising to me, actually, since the folks who care enough to join a political board should have--I would think--more than the average knowledge on political/world affairs. But I digress. Like you, I do love a lot about Americans and their country. I have travelled to most states, enjoy a lot about American culture, and have many friends (and some relatives) who are from the US. But as a Canadian, I will never understand a few American ways of thinking, that no matter how hard I try, doubt I will be ever able to completely grasp:
1) The American love of guns.
2) American jingoism.

I tend to chalk it up to historical differences and leave it a that.

Thanks for that, Middleground. You are true to your name on here. There's probably a lot of wisdom to your approach.

A part of me regrets starting this thread, because there's been so much negativity expressed here (NOT my style) and many people interpreted my original post as an attempt at trying to bash Americans. I have attempted in numerous posts since to explain that nothing could be further from the truth, but many of those who have posted seem to pick individual words inside messages and make argumentative responses based on those.

The thing is, I love to understand what makes people think the way they do, but I don't particularly want to get metaphorically (or literally) shot down in trying to learn more about what makes others tick.

(And yes, I admit my temper got the better part of me as I responded to a couple of the people on here... I'm not proud of that).

And BTW, if the strike ever ends, GO SENS!

 

[wolfman24]

What? Your golden boy Obama has no knowledge of the "outside world?" I must beg to differ. All he has done in the last 4 years is point up how worldly he is. This thread IS, after all, about OBAMA saying that America is the greatest country. And I've never had anyone in another counry I have been to decine to take my dollars. They ma not like Americans. But they like our dollars perfectly well!

Major Fail. Again you don't like what I say so you label me a liberal by implication. NOT.

IF you read my post I did not mention a specific person at any time nor imply one. What I said is accurate based on personal experience and many moronic comments made on this post about the outside world.

Just ranting for rantings sake.

 

[Tucker Case]

Sorry, Tucker, but just like I said to Maenad above (on the other end of the spectrum), making sweeping statements like talking about "how incompetent they all [Americans] are" doesn't help this conversation.

The they in that sentence refers to the politicians, not Americans.

 

[Tucker Case]

Oh, I disagree slightly Tuck....As a person who has had the opportunity to travel abroad on Uncle Sam's dime, I would agree that there are many very cool places in the world. But what separates these other countries from the USA is that IMHO, these other countries benefit their ability to be what they are directly from the USA. Either in protection, technology, or business partnership. Also, there is NO other nation on earth so willing to swoop into anywhere, even their "enemies" countries in times of disaster with aid like we do. Not to mention the American propensity to donate money in barrels full to help with others.

We are the greatest, not because we are the bully, but because we are the blueprint.

We are as dependent on other nations as they are on us.

 

[Canadian Joe]

The they in that sentence refers to the politicians, not Americans.

My apologies... I misunderstood.

Just trying to keep it honest on both sides.

Thanks for correcting me.

 

[Wiggen]

So what IS the greatest country on earth?

Why does one country have to be 'the greatest'? There are a lot of great countries in the world. Some are greater than others in certain areas, but how can anybody possibly say there's is the greatest unless they've actually lived elsewhere?

 

[Middleground]

Why does one country have to be 'the greatest'? There are a lot of great countries in the world. Some are greater than others in certain areas, but how can anybody possibly say there's is the greatest unless they've actually lived elsewhere?

Most countries have their own charm. I fell in love with Italy this summer... despite its problems.

 

[Tucker Case]

My apologies... I misunderstood.

Just trying to keep it honest on both sides.

Thanks for correcting me.

Nothing to apologize for. The sentence was ambiguous and required clarification.

 

[Maenad]

I HAVE NOT CALLED AMERICANS ARROGANT! READ THE FULL TEXT OF WHAT I'VE WRITTEN BEFORE LAUNCHING SUCH ACCUSATIONS!!!!! Numerous times in this thread I have given immense compliments to Americans and American society. My brother is American. Many of my closest friends are American. I have worked much of my career in American businesses (yes, I too have spent plenty of time OUTSIDE the ivory tower) alongside American colleagues. I have said repeatedly that I love the United States and deeply respect many of the accomplishments of American society. I have spent years chastising some Canadians who criticize America for no reason. I have argued PASSIONATELY against some of my fellow Canadians, saying that most Americans ARE NOT arrogant as a people overall! Raised on about a 75% douse of American culture with much time spent in the United States, I would consider myself partially American by culture if not by passport.

I started this thread to ask one very specific question: why is it a trait of American politics that leaders of both parties must always declare their nation better than others? I stated that THIS ONE SPECIFIC TRAIT of American political dialog has the appearance of being arrogant. THAT IS A FAR CRY FROM WRITING OFF ALL AMERICANS AS ARROGANT, as you accuse me of doing. I know and deeply care for too many wonderful Americans to ever make a damning and far-sweeping statement like that!!!!

Furthermore, you will note if you read this entire thread, that one American replied to my question by telling me that from their perspective it has to do with "America being a unique experiment in human history" (rough quote there). I answered that person by saying that I accept that logic, and in the context of that approach, the rhetoric makes more sense to me. In other words, I asked a question, I got an answer, and I have learned from the dialogue. That person provided a rational explanation of this one political trait that will help me as a Canadian to not think of it as being so "arrogant" the next time I hear it used.

You, by contrast, make sweeping accusations against me without reading the full context of everything I have written. You seem more obsessed with argument and division, calling me names like "pompous ass" (oooh, well done, your academic credentials are clearly very strong), and taking one point of an argument out of the context of the rest of it (my Rousseau reference was merely intended to make the simple point that SOMEONE outside of the U.S. made some SMALL contribution to the development of the concept of liberty... a point which you did not respond to and apparently will not concede).

You are consumed with wanting to spew anger against me, while that other American who responded to me helped me to get a sincere answer to a genuine question. I thanked that person and I am prepared to move on the better for it.

My conclusion from that: just like for us here in Canada, in America some people are balanced, reasonable and able to have an intelligent exchange of ideas, while others are not...

I bet some of your best friends are black too!

To you a 'sincere answer to a genuine question' would be an answer that just follows along with your American bashing. And my good sir, you are indeed a pompous ass as well a bigot!

 

[Canadian Joe]

I bet some of your best friends are black too!

To you a 'sincere answer to a genuine question' would be an answer that just follows along with your American bashing. And my good sir, you are indeed a pompous ass as well a bigot!

I have written a longer response to you in the gun control thread where you answered me as well. If interested, please have a look there. In short, I didn't come on this site to toss insults back and forth. Whether you believe me or not, I am here to have a respectful conversation and hear the opinions of others. That is the very opposite of "bigotry" by definition. I do want to hear the ideas of others, including yourself if you'd give me a chance, but I would like to do it from a position of mutual respect.

If my earlier posts caused you offense in some way (which they clearly seem to have), I apologize for whatever made you think I was trying to bash Americans. That was NOT my intent, but clearly something in what I wrote made you think it was. I am sorry for that.

Olive branch extended, up to you whether you'd like to accept it or not...

 

[j-mac]

We are as dependent on other nations as they are on us.

Maybe you could expand on that just a bit?

 

[Tucker Case]

Maybe you could expand on that just a bit?

I'll use an example: Let's say China wanted to destroy the US economy. They have the power to do so if they wanted to, but in doing so, they would destroy their own economy. It's a state of interdependency. That's the way the world works these days. We rely heavily on their production, they rely heavily on our money.

 

[roflpublican]

I'll use an example: Let's say China wanted to destroy the US economy. They have the power to do so if they wanted to, but in doing so, they would destroy their own economy. It's a state of interdependency. That's the way the world works these days. We rely heavily on their production, they rely heavily on our money.

the best thing for america would be if they stopped selling us things. we'd go through a few years of basic non-food goods costing 2-3x more than they had been costing, but at the end of it, when our industry had been rebuilt by necessity, we would be infinitely better off. it would also be good for china: if they went into the economic downspiral a lack of american demand caused, they would almost certainly have a revolution, and likely turn to democracy as they've already tried monarchy (dynasties) dictatorship (Chiang Kai-shek) and communism (late 40's-present).

 

[Tucker Case]

the best thing for america would be if they stopped selling us things. we'd go through a few years of basic non-food goods costing 2-3x more than they had been costing, but at the end of it, when our industry had been rebuilt by necessity, we would be infinitely better off. it would also be good for china: if they went into the economic downspiral a lack of american demand caused, they would almost certainly have a revolution, and likely turn to democracy as they've already tried monarchy (dynasties) dictatorship (Chiang Kai-shek) and communism (late 40's-present).

We'd go through a few years of having massive shortages of non-food goods. It's not just a matter of price, it's a matter of supply itself as we would have no way to replace the goods for years.

Price increases would reflect this shortage without a decrease in demand being present, so a 200%-300% increase in prices is a very conservative estimate. Those levels of increase would be seen with food goods, as the products used in cultivating, preparing, and shipping those goods would become more expensive to purchase and maintain thus increasing the overheard for the companies which supply those products.

 

[roflpublican]

We'd go through a few years of having massive shortages of non-food goods. It's not just a matter of price, it's a matter of supply itself as we would have no way to replace the goods for years.

Price increases would reflect this shortage without a decrease in demand being present, so a 200%-300% increase in prices is a very conservative estimate. Those levels of increase would be seen with food goods, as the products used in cultivating, preparing, and shipping those goods would become more expensive to purchase and maintain thus increasing the overheard for the companies which supply those products.

it isnt like china is the only one to sell those cheap goods though. theirs are just the cheapest.

 

[Tucker Case]

it isnt like china is the only one to sell those cheap goods though. theirs are just the cheapest.

It's not about selling, it's about producing. They are not just selling more of these goods than anyone else, they are producing many more of them than anyone else. If they stop producing the products, the supply will decrease dramatically. You can't look at existing price disparities between Chinese and non-chinese goods and claim that it is similar to what would be seen if China decided to stop producing these goods. you have to look at what would happen to the total supply of goods. The non-chinese manufacturers would need to dramatically increase their production to suit. This would take a long time for most industries. In that time, prices would rise far more than 200%-300%. Once the supply void is filled, prices would drop again, but not until that void is filled.

 

[roflpublican]

It's not about selling, it's about producing. They are not just selling more of these goods than anyone else, they are producing many more of them than anyone else. If they stop producing the products, the supply will decrease dramatically. You can't look at existing price disparities between Chinese and non-chinese goods and claim that it is similar to what would be seen if China decided to stop producing these goods. you have to look at what would happen to the total supply of goods. The non-chinese manufacturers would need to dramatically increase their production to suit. This would take a long time for most industries. In that time, prices would rise far more than 200%-300%. Once the supply void is filled, prices would drop again, but not until that void is filled.

but we would not starve. we would not run out of electricity or water. we could do it, actually no, i'm a believer in american exceptionalism. we can do it.

 

[Tucker Case]

but we would not starve. we would not run out of electricity or water. we could do it, actually no, i'm a believer in american exceptionalism. we can do it.

It's nice to believe in things.

 

[roflpublican]

It's nice to believe in things.

it's also nice:

How large are U.S. coal reserves? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
U.S. Crude Oil, Natural Gas, and Natural Gas Liquids Proved Reserves

Military Strength of United States of America
Roadway Coverage: 6,506,204 km
Railway Coverage: 226,427 km
Serviceable Airports: 15,097

to know your beliefs are backed up by reality.

i don't buy doomsaying. this country is incredible. we are the greatest nation on earth. the facts back that up.

 

[AdamT]

It's nice to believe in things.

Yes, it sure is. And assuming that we survived the massive recession or depression that this caused, what then? The reason Chinese goods are cheaper is that the Chinese are willing to work for absurdly low wages. So either we produce the same goods at our current wage scale, which would make them far more expensive, or we start paying workers starvation wages.

Neither seems particularly appealing.

 

[jambalaya]

It is partly a rally the troops thing. "We're the greatest, let's go!" It is a call to take pride in what you've got and then make it better even if we don't all agree how to do it. We really don't expect the rest of the world to think we are the greatest country on earth. I think we certainly have an argument for it overall. But, at the same time some people think we are the Great Satan. We don't have to be perfect to think we are the greatest.

 

[Dwight]

It's nice to believe in things.

Very comforting, too!

 

[straykatz]

Americans do not trust other Americans ergo we will not be giving up our guns. No point discussing it.

Canadians still own guns....they just can't own uzies and other high powered automatic weapons capable of mass murdering dozens and dozens of innocents in a minute or two.