Open Letter to Republicans: Please Stop Saying "Judeo-Christian"

[SheWolf]

I think Jews would be just as offended by "Jewish Myth" and Muslims "Islamic Myth". My neighboors (and friends) are Jewish and I asked them if they were at all offended by the term Judeo-Christian. They both kind of looked at me blankley and said "Why would we be?"

I think if something is said with the intention to discredit or belittle, then it will be percieved as offensive, but saying Judeo-Christian seems to only offend secular liberals.

I am not a liberal and I am not offended by the term... and I wouldn't expect Jewish people to be offended by it either

 

[Gardener]

If you follow the conversation up to this point.. it sounds like you're a Messianic Jew or Muslim saying Jesus was Jewish, ethnically and spiritually, and was a prophet for the Jews.

One doesn't have to be a messianic Jew or a Muslim to acknowledge that Jesus was Jewish.

You only have to be rational.

 

[SheWolf]

One doesn't have to be a messianic Jew or a Muslim to acknowledge that Jesus was Jewish.

You only have to be rational.

I know Jesus was a prophet and was Jewish.. but he is talking about the religious message of Jesus. The answer to that question depends on who you ask, and that is the only point that I am trying to make.

I am not trying to assert anything beyond that. Who was the new covenant with and intended for? It's a matter of faith, not fact..

He is focusing on theological debate, and one cannot have a theological debate without citing which religious theology they're referring to. I have been doing that.

He won't do that. But I am going to guess he is Christian and believes Jesus fulfilled Jewish Law or something like that, so that would make him Jewish in terms of religious message and commitment. Even though Jews and Muslims would disagree... but that is his faith.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I know Jesus was a prophet and was Jewish.. but he is talking about the religious message of Jesus. The answer to that question depends on who you ask, and that is the only point that I am trying to make.

I am not trying to assert anything beyond that. Who was the new covenant with and intended for? It's a matter of faith, not fact..

Exactly!

Christians feeling that they have a special relationship with Judaism does not make an objective "Judeo-Christian" tradition. The Judeo-Christian relationship is from the Christian perspective only. In fact, that feeling of having a special connection to Judaism is the hallmark of the Abrahamic religions. The Islamic religion claims the same very relationship to Judaism itself. We have to look at it objectively rather than subjectively, because we are talking about categories here, not personal feelings.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Jesus is a prophet (somewhat) to the Islamic religion - that's one main HUGE difference, there. . . one of many differences.

So if someone describes their *beliefs* as Judeo-Christian (belief construct - NOT values and ethics as in the way I use the term to peg me into a hole) then I presume they are considering the things that Judaism and Christianity have in common with each other - as opposed to what makes Islam so different.

IF Islam plays a direct and meaningful role (per the biblical text) in someone's life and beliefs then I'm only *assuming* someone would consider that when they *sum up their beliefs*

I don't believe it's really up to you to tell people how to classify their religious beliefs - I think it's rather crass for you to assume this role for yourself.

 

[other]

I know Jesus was a prophet and was Jewish.. but he is talking about the religious message of Jesus. The answer to that question depends on who you ask, and that is the only point that I am trying to make.

I am not trying to assert anything beyond that. Who was the new covenant with and intended for? It's a matter of faith, not fact..

He is focusing on theological debate, and one cannot have a theological debate without citing which religious theology they're referring to. I have been doing that.

He won't do that. But I am going to guess he is Christian and believes Jesus fulfilled Jewish Law or something like that, so that would make him Jewish in terms of religious message and commitment. Even though Jews and Muslims would disagree... but that is his faith.

On one hand, you want to argue that hellenistic & pagan influences are absolutely integral to christianity and then get upset because I point out the lack of direct references to such philosophers in the texts. Notice, as I said before, that there are certainly such influences, but many came after the earliest christians and others are far from accepted beyond any doubt.

Then, on the other hand, you want to claim that the jewish connection to christian teachings is tenuous at best, despite multiple references in text to jewish writings and prophets. Then you want to call me intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, you make assumptions about my views based on positions you have made up, when I actually hold the opposite standpoint--despite the fact that I have pointed this out to you multiple times... just sayin', you can "guess" all you want about who I am or what I believe, but that was never the topic of discussion in the first place and I can tell you for certain that you are very far off the mark.

 

[other]

So if someone describes their *beliefs* as Judeo-Christian (belief construct - NOT values and ethics as in the way I use the term to peg me into a hole) then I presume they are considering the things that Judaism and Christianity have in common with each other - as opposed to what makes Islam so different.

This is key here. There is no reason to assume that the term "judeo-chrisitian" is used for the sole purpose of excluding Islam as a religion in the Abrahamic tradition to begin with.

 

[SheWolf]

On one hand, you want to argue that hellenistic & pagan influences are absolutely integral to christianity and then get upset because I point out the lack of direct references to such philosophers in the texts. Notice, as I said before, that there are certainly such influences, but many came after the earliest christians and others are far from accepted beyond any doubt.

Then, on the other hand, you want to claim that the jewish connection to christian teachings is tenuous at best, despite multiple references in text to jewish writings and prophets. Then you want to call me intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, you make assumptions about my views based on positions you have made up, when I actually hold the opposite standpoint--despite the fact that I have pointed this out to you multiple times... just sayin', you can "guess" all you want about who I am or what I believe, but that was never the topic of discussion in the first place and I can tell you for certain that you are very far off the mark.

I don't claim to understand your POV entirely.. that is what much of this back and forth is about, me trying to understand where you are coming from. I have been citing shared Jewish and Muslim tenets like the Children of Israel and covenants.. I have pointed out many other things between traditions and practices.

Then I started looking more into the Christian view, and what you are saying seems to fit in more with the Christian view. You need to cite a theology, not simply state it's some kind of fact that Jesus followed Jewish law and tradition. It's not a fact.. he was accused of breaking sabbath and touching people who were unclean. I have pointed things out over and over.

More importantly that is why I got "emotional" and said, I am not in the position to judge Jesus, his actions, or his message myself.. It's a matter of faith, not fact. Only Jesus knows how he wanted his message taken and heard.. not me, and not you. If you think otherwise, that is faith talking.. If it was so clear, then there wouldn't be so many different branches of Abrahamic religions and teachings within each religion.

If you think he correctly fulfilled Jewish law, then say so. That is the Christian view... that he wasn't breaking law and tradition, but fulfilling them. Jewish people and Muslims disagree... but it's a matter of faith.

And in terms of Christianity and Jewish Law there are not shared values.. that is a huge doctrine in the New Testament. There was a major controversy at Antioch about Masonic Law, and if Christians should follow it. Paul and Peter said no.. you don't have to obey Moses Law, if you do... then Jesus died in vain.

That is why I don't see the shared values.. that is why Hellenic values did have influence on the values. Western people thought circumcision was disgusting, and older men didn't want to have it done. They didn't want to follow Moses Law, and the apostles said OK then don't..

But the Muslims follow the Seven Laws of Noah, and the divine law or Sharia. Sharia Law means different things to different Muslims.. depending if they are traditionalist, fundamentals, modernists, sunni, shiite, or Turkish..

I am citing theology and where it's coming from. It's important to do when you are trying to make factual statements about things that the Abrahamic religions disagree on.

I don't think I am asking for much..

 

[SheWolf]

Jesus is a prophet (somewhat) to the Islamic religion - that's one main HUGE difference, there. . . one of many differences.

So if someone describes their *beliefs* as Judeo-Christian (belief construct - NOT values and ethics as in the way I use the term to peg me into a hole) then I presume they are considering the things that Judaism and Christianity have in common with each other - as opposed to what makes Islam so different.

All three of the religions are different.. Talking about how much Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have in common is being debated right now

IF Islam plays a direct and meaningful role (per the biblical text) in someone's life and beliefs then I'm only *assuming* someone would consider that when they *sum up their beliefs*

I don't believe it's really up to you to tell people how to classify their religious beliefs - I think it's rather crass for you to assume this role for yourself.

There is so much irony in this statement, I don't even know where to begin...

 

[other]

I don't claim to understand your POV entirely.. that is what much of this back and forth is about, me trying to understand where you are coming from. I have been citing shared Jewish and Muslim tenets like the Children of Israel and covenants.. I have pointed out many other things between traditions and practices.

Much of your citations were aimed at trying to convince me that Islamic tradition borrowed heavily from judaism.

Thing is, I never made the claim that it didn't, but stated otherwise in my very forst post. Whether it does or not has nothing to do with the term "judeo-christian."

Then I started looking more into the Christian view, and what you are saying seems to fit in more with the Christian view. You need to cite a theology, not simply state it's some kind of fact that Jesus followed Jewish law and tradition. It's not a fact.. he was accused of breaking sabbath and touching people who were unclean. I have pointed things out over and over.

Well, since you have access to a bible, why do you ask for citation? Both paul and the writers of the gospels very frequently make reference to the torah and the prophets. This is not some obscure theological theory--anyone with a very basic understanding of christian beliefs realizes that they grew out of the jewish tradition...although their practices have changed over time (and yes, also some at the very beginning).

More importantly that is why I got "emotional" and said, I am not in the position to judge Jesus, his actions, or his message myself.. It's a matter of faith, not fact. Only Jesus knows how he wanted his message taken and heard.. not me, and not you. If you think otherwise, that is faith talking.. If it was so clear, then there wouldn't be so many different branches of Abrahamic religions and teachings within each religion.

Well, I'd like to know why you so readily accept all the pagan influences that are evident in christianity but refuse to acknowledge all of the jewish influences that are much more prevalent.

In short, pagan influences may have educated their view of God's essential nature, and later paganism was grafted onto the christian calendar (after it had been laid over the Julian)... Here the influence over law/values is minimal. The Celts' moral values weren't brought into christianity, for instance, but christian values (which derived from the jewish tradition) either adopted them in a modified form (ie. borrowing pagan symbols to represent judeo-christian concepts) or supplanted them entirely when they converted.

If you think he correctly fulfilled Jewish law, then say so. That is the Christian view... that he wasn't breaking law and tradition, but fulfilling them. Jewish people and Muslims disagree... but it's a matter of faith.

Whether or not christianity takes its moral laws/principles from judaism or not is not a matter of faith... It is clearly evident in christian texts.

And in terms of Christianity and Jewish Law there are not shared values.. that is a huge doctrine in the New Testament. There was a major controversy at Antioch about Masonic Law, and if Christians should follow it. Paul and Peter said no.. you don't have to obey Moses Law, if you do... then Jesus died in vain.

It is no big secret that christians do not follow mosaic law to the letter--that is beside the point-- neither do most jews today or even during or before the classical period.

That is why I don't see the shared values.. that is why Hellenic values did have influence on the values. Western people thought circumcision was disgusting, and older men didn't want to have it done. They didn't want to follow Moses Law, and the apostles said OK then don't..

see above

But the Muslims follow the Seven Laws of Noah, and the divine law or Sharia. Sharia Law means different things to different Muslims.. depending if they are traditionalist, fundamentals, modernists, sunni, shiite, or Turkish..

and sharia laws is not the same thing as mosaic law.

I am citing theology and where it's coming from. It's important to do when you are trying to make factual statements about things that the Abrahamic religions disagree on.

please, pick up any bible and turn to nearly any page of the new testament. The jewish foundation of christianity is obvious.

 

[Manc Skipper]

... The jewish foundation of christianity is obvious.

As is Islam.

 

[other]

As is Islam.

correct. and what does that have to do with "judeo-christian"?

 

[SheWolf]

Much of your citations were aimed at trying to convince me that Islamic tradition borrowed heavily from judaism.

Thing is, I never made the claim that it didn't, but stated otherwise in my very forst post. Whether it does or not has nothing to do with the term "judeo-christian."

Islam does borrow heavily from Judaism... do you have a problem with that fact?

And it has a lot to do with the term Judeo Christian.... why else would the OP make this thread? It's your opinion. Why does Judeo Christian have to do with anything that should exclude Islam as related to Judaism?

Well, since you have access to a bible, why do you ask for citation? Both paul and the writers of the gospels very frequently make reference to the torah and the prophets. This is not some obscure theological theory--anyone with a very basic understanding of christian beliefs realizes that they grew out of the jewish tradition...although their practices have changed over time (and yes, also some at the very beginning).

Well.. I did do an online search of the bible with the words "torah" and "old testament" and I found nothing at all.. Ironically, the Quaran has thousands of entries about the Torah being truth and the those who read from it "speak the truth."

Well, I'd like to know why you so readily accept all the pagan influences that are evident in christianity but refuse to acknowledge all of the jewish influences that are much more prevalent.

Depending on the Christian church the Pagan influences are more obvious.. most of all in the Catholic Church, and even most Christians agree with that. The Jehovah Witnesses are know for trying to rid the religion of all Pagan influences entirely..

And if you ask me... honestly, I see the Pagan influences more obvious than the Jewish ones. That is way I feel, I can't help it. If you don't like that, then try to change my opinion with facts or something. IDK...

I don't see the shared values very clearly.. to me Christianity is very different from Judaism in terms of values. Most notably the holy trinity, and that is a major foundation of Christianity.

In short, pagan influences may have educated their view of God's essential nature, and later paganism was grafted onto the christian calendar (after it had been laid over the Julian)... Here the influence over law/values is minimal. The Celts' moral values weren't brought into christianity, for instance, but christian values (which derived from the jewish tradition) either adopted them in a modified form (ie. borrowing pagan symbols to represent judeo-christian concepts) or supplanted them entirely when they converted.

How do Pagan symbols represent Judeo Christian (or Jewish) concepts.. which ones Jewish concepts? I am aware of the fusing of the two faiths together, most notably in the symbols and names of Saints.. but honoring Saints isn't a Jewish concept to my knowledge.

Whether or not christianity takes its moral laws/principles from judaism or not is not a matter of faith... It is clearly evident in christian texts.

It's not evident in my opinion... I have given plenty Jewish Islamic laws and principles.. Why don't you give specifics. The only one that jumps to mind is the 10 commandments, and you can't say Islam rejects them, because they don't. They accept the Torah.

It is no big secret that christians do not follow mosaic law to the letter--that is beside the point-- neither do most jews today or even during or before the classical period.

Jewish people do follow Mosaic Law, but Rabbis are allowed to change it for "practical reasons." Only Jewish Rabbis have that authority.. and other than the legal code, they still follow Mosaic Law in terms of ritual practice, praying, dietary law, observance of holy days, etc. Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, only Christians do.. and Messianic Jews still observe the Torah too

and sharia laws is not the same thing as mosaic law.

No crap.. but the Quran confirms the Torah and Mosaic Law. The Quran doesn't say the Torah and Mosaic Law is fulfilled or unimportant anymore.

please, pick up any bible and turn to nearly any page of the new testament. The jewish foundation of christianity is obvious.

I have read a lot of the New Testament... Why don't you pick up the Quran, the Jewish foundation is obvious in it?

Are you saying the Jewish foundation is stronger in Christianity, and Islam shouldn't say it's Jewish in origin?

 

[other]

Islam does borrow heavily from Judaism... do you have a problem with that fact?

Wow. I think I'll give up on trying to keep you from pulling up this strawman after so many repetitions.

And it has a lot to do with the term Judeo Christian.... why else would the OP make this thread?

because he's operating on the erroneous assumtion that judeo-christian is used for the sole purpose of excluding islam... that's my guess.

Why does Judeo Christian have to do with anything that should exclude Islam as related to Judaism?

If you'll actually read my earlier posts, you'll notice that I ask that very same question of you and the OP. Care to answer?

Well.. I did do an online search of the bible with the words "torah" and "old testament" and I found nothing at all.. Ironically, the Quaran has thousands of entries about the Torah being truth and the those who read from it "speak the truth."

So. Let me see if I get what you are saying. You looked on the internet for new testament references to jewish law and/or prophets and/or scripture and could not find anything?

I am afraid that I cannot help you. Your denial amazes me.

Depending on the Christian church the Pagan influences are more obvious.. most of all in the Catholic Church, and even most Christians agree with that. The Jehovah Witnesses are know for trying to rid the religion of all Pagan influences entirely..

And if you ask me... honestly, I see the Pagan influences more obvious than the Jewish ones. That is way I feel, I can't help it.

See above... this is probably because you are completely unfamiliar with any actual christian texts.

If you don't like that, then try to change my opinion with facts or something. IDK...

I'll repeat what I said earlier: "please, pick up any bible and turn to nearly any page of the new testament. The jewish foundation of christianity is obvious."

I don't see the shared values very clearly.. to me Christianity is very different from Judaism in terms of values. Most notably the holy trinity, [...]

That is not a moral or value, that is a view of the fundamental nature of God... and if you go back and check out what I've been telling you, you may note that I have already pointed this out:

In short, pagan influences may have educated their view of God's essential nature, and later paganism was grafted onto the christian calendar (after it had been laid over the Julian)... Here the influence over law/values is minimal. [...]

and there are more!

How do Pagan symbols represent Judeo Christian (or Jewish) concepts.. which ones Jewish concepts?

Yoe ever heard the tale of St. Patrick and the three-leaf-clover?

I am aware of the fusing of the two faiths together, most notably in the symbols and names of Saints.. but honoring Saints isn't a Jewish concept to my knowledge.

No one ever said that the so called "cult of saints" was a jewish import.

It's not evident in my opinion... I have given plenty Jewish Islamic laws and principles.. Why don't you give specifics.

--jesus as messiah.
--plethora of reference to jewish law/prophets in christian texts.
--sabbath
--the creation
--view of sin/wages of sin
--etcetcetcetc

The only one that jumps to mind is the 10 commandments, and you can't say Islam rejects them, because they don't. They accept the Torah.

Still talkin about islam, huh?
Is that what your strawman would say?

Jewish people do follow Mosaic Law, but Rabbis are allowed to change it for "practical reasons." Only Jewish Rabbis have that authority.. and other than the legal code, they still follow Mosaic Law in terms of ritual practice, praying, dietary law, observance of holy days, etc. Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, only Christians do.. and Messianic Jews still observe the Torah too

oh yeah? So all jews today slaughter goats in repentance for their sins?

No crap.. but the Quran confirms the Torah and Mosaic Law. The Quran doesn't say the Torah and Mosaic Law is fulfilled or unimportant anymore.

oh, so now you are saying that followers of sharia law also perfectly adhere to mosaic law? Do muslims accept that the decendants of Isaac-->jacob are god's chosen people (the jews) as opposed to the descendents of Ishmael?

I have read a lot of the New Testament... Why don't you pick up the Quran, the Jewish foundation is obvious in it?

hello, strawman. back again I see.

Are you saying the Jewish foundation is stronger in Christianity,

yes

and Islam shouldn't say it's Jewish in origin?

again, no. I never said Islam had no jewish influence. I have stated many, many, times to the contrary. Can we finally put this strawman to rest now?

 

[SheWolf]

....

The only reason I am pulling off the strawman constantly is because you are doing it to me..

Secondly I am not in denial about anything. You keep telling me to pick up the bible and read it.. read this, read that, you shouldn't have to give me citations, etc. And you're saying that the Jewish foundation in Christianity is stronger than in Islam.

Prove it. The burden of proof is on you, so stop telling me to look things up.

I have looked plenty of things up and even offered you the similarities between Islam and Judaism.. the values, practices, and laws. You haven't even presented half of what I have to support your claims.

Again.. you're saying I am unfamiliar with Christian texts. You're totally wrong, and not only that, but you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding Jewish texts.

--jesus as messiah.

This is so wrong it's absurd. Jews don't think Jesus is a Messiah, because he did not fit into the prophecy of the Messiah. Therefore Jews also strongly oppose the Christian trinity. Here Judaism agrees with Islam 100%.

--plethora of reference to jewish law/prophets in christian texts.

The same prophets are recognized in the Quran, so you're not proving the Jewish foundation is stronger in Christianity

--sabbath

Wrong. The Jewish Shabbat is observed at sundown on Friday until Saturday. In Islam Sabath also begins Friday.

Religious Tolerance even says the Christian sabbath was tainted by Paganism, since that is the beginning of the Pagan observance

The Christian holy day: Saturday or Sunday?


--the creation

Wrong again. Neither Jews or Muslims take the book of Genesis as literal.. It's more of an allegory and open for interpretation. Christians again are alone in this value. If you don't believe me, look it up.

--view of sin/wages of sin

This might make your head explode but Jews don't exactly believe in sin... not in original sin or repentance like Christians. Jews believe people are born pure, not bad or corrupted by Adam and Eve. Jews don't even believe in a literal Hell.

Frequently Asked Questions-FAQs: What do Jews believe about Heaven, Hell and the 'after life' in general?

But Islam again shares many of these Jewish views.


--etcetcetcetc

Looks like you're going to have to tell me what the etc. etc.. is, because you haven't gone anywhere so far..


I keep talking about Islam because you seem to misunderstand the amount of similarities between it and Judaism. The similarities IMO are more striking and clear.. so when you say that Christianity has a stronger Jewish foundation than Islam, I just want to see you make your case.

I know I have made assumptions about you, and you got offended.. but honestly, I don't feel you have a good understanding about Islamic teachings. Otherwise you wouldn't ask questions about their views on the Jewish people. The Quran is very clear that God chose to bestow blessings on the Jews and gave them advantages. He chose them as it says in the Torah.

And when Muhammad came he was a prophet in the Judaism line of prophets, because he was a decedent of Abraham.. He had Jewish wives and he observed Jewish holy days before he became a prophet as well. The Islamic view on the Children of Israel is similar to the Christian view. If you ask the Muslims, they would say the new covenant was with the children of Hagar and with Muhammad.. and Muhammad invited in all children to read the Torah and Gospels as they are the truth, according to him..

That is the Muslim faith as I understand it

 

[other]

The only reason I am pulling off the strawman constantly is because you are doing it to me.

my fault, huh?

Secondly I am not in denial about anything. You keep telling me to pick up the bible and read it.. read this, read that, you shouldn't have to give me citations, etc. And you're saying that the Jewish foundation in Christianity is stronger than in Islam.

Prove it. The burden of proof is on you, so stop telling me to look things up.

If the writings of these christians isn't a good enough source for you, well, anything else would be a waste of my time. Furthermore, if you refuse to accept that judaism had a strong influence on christianity to begin with, which is blatantly obvious, why should I bother providing you with secondary sources. It's all right there in the bible, on nearly every page of the new testament.

With regard to Islam, I have already stated my case. Christianity branched directly from judaism, Islam's borrowed inderectly.

I have looked plenty of things up and even offered you the similarities between Islam and Judaism..

to build your strawman arguements, yes, but I never denied similarity between the two.

You haven't even presented half of what I have to support your claims.

You haven't presented anything of substance concerning any actual claim I've made--only strawmen you think I have made. For instance, you cite the council of nicea. How does this support the idea that judaism had no impact on early christianity? Despite the fact that you say the apostles attended, which is ridiculous, the council of nicea was a development that took place long after christians had been under the roman heel for centuries.

Again.. you're saying I am unfamiliar with Christian texts.

yes. You said yourself that you couldn't find references to jewish law/tradition in the new testament, did you not?

You're totally wrong, and not only that, but you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding Jewish texts.

:shock:

I was talking about christian texts.

--jesus as messiah.

No. Jews don't think Jesus is a Messiah, because he did not fit into the prophecy of the Messiah. Jews also strongly oppose the Christian trinity. Here Judaism agrees with Islam.

The point was that they see him as the messiah, a figure from jewish tradition, not that Jews believe in Jesus!

--plethora of reference to jewish law/prophets in christian texts.

The same prophets are recognized in the Quran.

So? We are talking about early christians

--sabbath

Wrong. The Jewish Shabbat is observed on sundown at Friday until Saturday. In Islam Sabath also begins Friday.

Again, We are talking about early christians. Pedantry over the what day the sabbath falls on is irrelevant to the fact that christians recognize a sabbath, a jewish construct.

Religious Tolerance even says the Christian sabbath was tainted by Paganism, since that is the start of the Pagan observance

Either I don't know what you are trying to say here or I just didn't know that religious tolerance could speak or form thoughts.

--the creation

Wrong again. Neither Jews or Muslims take the book of Genesis as literal.. It's more of an allegory and open for interpretation. Christians again are alone in this value. If you don't believe me, look it up.

Literalism, another irrelevant strawman. Not all christians are literalists.

This might make your head explode but Jews don't exactly believe in sin...

Oh, right. So now you might want to start by explaining away all that sin mentioned throughout Jewish scripture... good luck.

not in original sin or repentance like Christians.

Concerning repentance, christianity has the same view of sin that the ancient hebrews did. ie. wages of sin = death. paid in blood. This view is the reason why Christians believe jesus died in repentance for their sins.

Jews believe people are born pure, not bad or corrupted by Adam and Eve. Jews don't even believe in a literal Hell.

Whoever said jews and christians believed exactly all of the same things? If they did, they would not be a different religion.

I keep talking about Islam because you seem to misunderstand the amount of similarities between it and Judaism. The similarities IMO are more striking and clear.. so when you say that Christianity has a stronger Jewish foundation than Islam, I just want to see you make your case.

I've made my case concerning the foundation of both religions. I could just as easily turn and point to disimilarities between Islam and judaism...

-Do jews pray to mecca?
-Do jews consider muhammad to be the greatest prophet, or even a propet at all?
-Do jews observe ramadan and do muslims observe the passover?

...I could go on and on as you are, but the whole point is that this thread is concerning the term "judeo-christian."

I know I have made assumptions about you, and you got offended.. but honestly, I don't feel you have a good understanding about Islamic teachings. Otherwise you wouldn't ask questions about their views on the Jewish people. The Quran is very clear that God bestowed blessings on the Jews and gave them advantages.

you ignored my earlier question... I asked "Do muslims accept that the decendants of Isaac-->jacob are god's chosen people (the jews) as opposed to the descendents of Ishmael?" not "did He give them 'advantages.'"

And when Muhammad came he was a prophet in the Judaism line of prophets, because he was a decedent of Abraham.. He had Jewish wives and he observed Jewish holy days before he became a prophet as well. The Islamic view on the Children of Israel is similar to the Christian view. If you ask the Muslims, they would say the new covenant was with the children of Hagar and with Muhammad.. and Muhammad invited in all children to read the Torah and Gospels as they are the truth..

The is the Muslim faith

You aren't telling me anything new here, why do you think I asked you about the son of Hagar?

Regardless, and back on the thread topic: The use of the term "judeo-christian" in no way detracts from Islam being viewed as an abrahamic religion.

 

[mac]

It doesn't offend me at all when other people ignorantly use outdated terminology. That's there problem. But some people are innocently unaware that "Judeo-Christian" is a nonsense term. I'm just trying to do a public service here.

Right, through use of revisionist history.

 

[SheWolf]

..

Do you even know what a stawman is? That is seriously annoying.

And I never said that Judaism didn't have a impact on Christianity.. I have only been arguing with you that you think Judaism is stronger in Christianity.

Judaism and Christianity are very different religions.. Christians interpret the Old Testament differently than Jewish people.

You can make your point without be a jerk? And concerning the council of nicea, I am pretty sure the apostles didn't attend. Perhaps I mistated something and meant to say their teachings played a role in it, and the obviously would have considering the line of bishops. However Constantine organized it, so how you can you say it happened "long after christians had been under the roman heel for centuries." Constantine was alive when Jesus was.. and Israel was under Roman control when Jesus was alive and long before his birth.

Again, I never said that Judaism had no impact on Christianity.. I'll keep saying it, if I have to. I think the relationship between Judaism and Islam is more apparent at face value, at least for me.. and that is why I am arguing with you. Why are you arguing with me?

I have tried to be an honest person through this, but it just seems you want to be condescending.. For the third time, yes I searched the New Testament for references to the torah and didn't find any. That is the fact, it doesn't make me stupid so drop it. I am not trying to prove anything by that.. expect you're probably better capable of doing you're own research, and your assumptions are not always right

I was talking about christian texts.

That is how you respond to my mention of understanding Jewish texts.. If you are going to argue that Christianity is build on Judaism, then you should know Jewish texts enough to base that argument off of.


JESUS AS MESSIAH
The point was that they see him as the messiah, a figure from jewish tradition, not that Jews believe in Jesus!

Wrong. Jews don't see Jesus as the Messiah. They rejected him as Messiah.
Ask the Rabbi - Jesus as the Messiah


--SABBATH
Again, We are talking about early christians. Pedantry over the what day the sabbath falls on is irrelevant to the fact that christians recognize a sabbath, a jewish construct.

Sabbath is not a Jewish construct, because Pagans were celebrating sabbath before they learned about Jesus.


THE CREATION
Literalism, another irrelevant strawman. Not all christians are literalists.

It's not a strawman. I think it's a pretty good point to be made that evolution isn't controversial in most of the Jewish community as they never took the genesis story literal.
Judaism and Evolution


SIN
Concerning repentance, christianity has the same view of sin that the ancient hebrews did. ie. wages of sin = death. paid in blood. This view is the reason why Christians believe jesus died in repentance for their sins.

Jews don't believe Jesus died for their sins.. if you don't understand that, then there is a serious problem. And FTR, no, Jews don't believe in original sin..


-Do jews pray to mecca?

No, but Muslims used to pray to Jerusalem like the Arabian Jews did.


-Do jews consider muhammad to be the greatest prophet, or even a propet at all?

Jews consider him a prophet today but not a first like with Jesus, and they see his religion as following the Noahide Laws.


-Do jews observe ramadan and do muslims observe the passover?
No, but early Muslims used to observe Yom Kippur and probably other Jewish holy days

Whoever said jews and christians believed exactly all of the same things? If they did, they would not be a different religion.

That is not the point here. Jews and Christians don't have to believe all the same things for me to accept your argument that Judaism is stronger in Christianity. I am only asking for those supposed values that are directly Jewish and not shared by Muslims, because every time you give a value and it is Muslim as well.. it's kind of defeats your argument.

you ignored my earlier question... I asked "Do muslims accept that the decendants of Isaac-->jacob are god's chosen people (the jews) as opposed to the descendents of Ishmael?" not "did He give them 'advantages.'"

I already answered this. The answer is in the Torah.. yes, god chose them, as stated in the Torah.. and the second covenant was made with the other children of Israel

 

[lizzie]

If you find yourself regularly using that adjective "Judeo-Christian" to describe, say, your values or religious traditions, I want you to please stop.

There isn't really a "Judeo-Christian tradition" that serves no genuine academic purpose. The only real purpose it serves is as a manipulation of language to fit the "Clash of Civilization" theory, as if the Islamic tradition is somehow fundamentally alien to the Judeo-Christian one.

Sorry to disappoint, but your wish is not my command.

Yes- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all based in Abrahamic codes and tradition. No- they don't all represent the same concepts. Judaism was based in old "law", Christianity came in part from the original law, but brought more of a message of peace and forgiveness which opposed that law (it was sort of an outgrowth and evolutionary step up, socially speaking). Islam seems to have been a step backward into old Jewish law once again. Their codes of conduct and religious laws are more similar to Jewish law than Christian principles of forgiveness and redemption.

 

[other]

Do you even know what a stawman is? That is seriously annoying.

I'm not trying to annoy you, I'd just appreciate it if you responded to points I've actually made.

And I never said that Judaism didn't have a impact on Christianity.. I have only been arguing with you that you think Judaism is stronger in Christianity.

Judaism and Christianity are very different religions.. Christians interpret the Old Testament differently than Jewish people.

The interpretation does not have to be the same. The very fact that they look to jewish law is the point.

You can make your point without be a jerk? And concerning the council of nicea, I am pretty sure the apostles didn't attend. Perhaps I mistated something and meant to say their teachings played a role in it, and the obviously would have considering the line of bishops. However Constantine organized it, so how you can you say it happened "long after christians had been under the roman heel for centuries." Constantine was alive when Jesus was.. and Israel was under Roman control when Jesus was alive and long before his birth.

The Emperor Constantine was not a contemporary of Jesus. Jesus died sometime around 30 AD, Constantine lived in the 4th century AD.

That you say Romans controled Judea has nothing to do with my point really. I wouldn't say otherwise.

Again, I never said that Judaism had no impact on Christianity.. I'll keep saying it, if I have to. I think the relationship between Judaism and Islam is more apparent at face value, at least for me.. and that is why I am arguing with you. Why are you arguing with me?

Well, you argue that the impact is minimal in comparison to later pagan influences, I disagree. Pagan influences were accepted in order to win converts more than anything and those influence didn't alter the foundational principles concerning the christian view of jewish law/tradition from earlier.

I have tried to be an honest person through this, but it just seems you want to be condescending.. For the third time, yes I searched the New Testament for references to the torah and didn't find any. That is the fact, it doesn't make me stupid so drop it.

I never said you were stupid, I don't think you are at all. But I can assure you that the new testament includes many, many references to jewish scriptures. Do you deny this?

That is how you respond to my mention of understanding Jewish texts.. If you are going to argue that Christianity is build on Judaism, then you should know Jewish texts enough to base that argument off of.

You took my comments completely out of context. If I am talking about christian texts, why would you criticize my points by saying that the point doesn't apply to the jewish texts? No one ever argued that christianity was the exact same thing as strictly conservative or mainstream judaism.

JESUS AS MESSIAH
The point was that they see him as the messiah, a figure from jewish tradition, not that Jews believe in Jesus!

Wrong. Jews don't see Jesus as the Messiah. They rejected him as Messiah.
Ask the Rabbi - Jesus as the Messiah

They, as in christians, not jews. see my above point about switching the context.

--SABBATH
Again, We are talking about early christians. Pedantry over the what day the sabbath falls on is irrelevant to the fact that christians recognize a sabbath, a jewish construct.

Sabbath is not a Jewish construct, because Pagans were celebrating sabbath before they learned about Jesus.

the sabbath, specifically, is a jewish construct and its origins have nothing to do with jesus.

You see, you always seem to respond to what I am saying by bringing up a completely irrelevant point.

THE CREATION
Literalism, another irrelevant strawman. Not all christians are literalists.

It's not a strawman. I think it's a pretty good point to be made that evolution isn't controversial in most of the Jewish community as they never took the genesis story literal.
Judaism and Evolution

same thing as above. Evolution has nothing, at all, to do with our discussion. The theory did not even exist until the modern period.

SIN
Concerning repentance, christianity has the same view of sin that the ancient hebrews did. ie. wages of sin = death. paid in blood. This view is the reason why Christians believe jesus died in repentance for their sins.

Jews don't believe Jesus died for their sins.. if you don't understand that, then there is a serious problem. And FTR, no, Jews don't believe in original sin..

Once again, you are doing the same thing. Please point out to me where I said that jews believe jesus died for their sins.

I am talking about both traditions conceptual views of sin. They are the same.

-Do jews pray to mecca?

No, but Muslims used to pray to Jerusalem like the Arabian Jews did.

No. exactly. And no where in mosaic law does it mandate that jews pray to jerusalem.

-Do jews consider muhammad to be the greatest prophet, or even a propet at all?

Jews consider him a prophet today but not a first like with Jesus, and they see his religion as following the Noahide Laws.

I'd like to meet any rabbi that considers muhammad to be the greatest prophet.

-Do jews observe ramadan and do muslims observe the passover?
No, but early Muslims used to observe Yom Kippur and probably other Jewish holy days

Answer: No. thanks.

That is not the point here. Jews and Christians don't have to believe all the same things for me to accept your argument that Judaism is stronger in Christianity.

That's exactly the point I have been trying to make for the past 3 pages, I only asked those questions to show you how you have been debating me. It is not really relevant that their are discrepancies between traditions.

I already answered this. The answer is in the Torah.. yes, god chose them, as stated in the Torah.. and the second covenant was made with the other children of Israel.

The jewish texts state that a covenant was made that Hagar's decendents would prosper, but not that they were chosen by God. Isaac and his descendants were the chosen people in the jewish tradition, and it was Isaac whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice, not Ishmael -- as it is in some muslim traditions.

 

[b.larset]

This I like. i agree enough of spouting the same tired old rhetoric. I want my side to be the rvolution and not a bunch of hearded cattle following- Established suckathetrough liferticians wraped in the flag and carry a bible hollering about helpin me protect my guns. Sheesh enough do somethin new. Start a national manufacturing campaign to help employement in the short term. Drop out of the UN ask them to move.Have a political action group thats called , " INCUMBENT HEAD HUNTERS". Put apledge in the tv guide to help rid the nation of the two party system and pass laws against Government SUCKUPPERY.

 

[SheWolf]

The interpretation does not have to be the same. The very fact that they look to jewish law is the point.

When you are saying Judaic-Christian values... and talk of "shared values" then I kind of expect the values to be the same. If Christians are just looking at Jewish law but not valuing it, it doesn't mean the values are the same.. and from my understanding values aren't supposed to be the same, because Christians believe Jesus was the prophet in the OT. Christians believe the OT has been fulfilled, so why would they have shared values? Christians look at the NT and Jews don't. Jews look at many other scriptures that Christians do not on top of that.

That is one of the big points I am trying to make.. also it's you thinking the Jewish foundation in Christianity is stronger. I don't agree on the second point.. and Jews probably don't either as I will show you later in the post.

Well, you argue that the impact is minimal in comparison to later pagan influences, I disagree. Pagan influences were accepted in order to win converts more than anything and those influence didn't alter the foundational principles concerning the christian view of jewish law/tradition from earlier.

I agree with you for the most part here.. but which Christian church you talk about, the Pagan influences are overboard and do impact the view of jewish law and tradition. Why do Catholics pray to Mary.. a female image? Goddesses were common in Pagan cultures.. many other Christians see a problem with praying to Mary and with praying to Saints. Isn't there only one god?

Another aspect is the triple deity.. also common in Pagan cultures. I know it well with the Goddesses like Hecate. The trinity went: Virgin, Mother/Maiden, Crone.

Again.. virgin mary, mother mary, full of grace? Look into Catholic prayers, the follow the Pagan pattern of honor.

And God is a triple God also.. father, son, holy spirit. That is the biggest one that Jews disagree with and so do Muslims. They think it goes against monotheism.

I never said you were stupid, I don't think you are at all. But I can assure you that the new testament includes many, many references to jewish scriptures. Do you deny this?

I am sure it does.. but which ones exactly, IDK.. and how were they mentioned, I only know the ones about not listening to Mosaic Laws. If you want me to directed towards something in particular than do so, because I am sure we aren't seeing eye to eye here.

You took my comments completely out of context. If I am talking about christian texts, why would you criticize my points by saying that the point doesn't apply to the jewish texts? No one ever argued that christianity was the exact same thing as strictly conservative or mainstream judaism.

You and others have kept talking about shared values, and I asked you what are those shared values.. I thought your response was to that.

the sabbath, specifically, is a jewish construct and its origins have nothing to do with jesus.

Pagans and Wiccans celebrate Sabbath and have before they ever came into contact with Jews... Sun gods in particular were honored on SUNday. Jewish holy days begin at sunset the day before. Their Sabbath begins Friday, but it is officially celebrated Saturday.. the 7th day. They don't work or worship on Sabbath, they attend services Friday but not Saturday. Christians attend services on their Sabbath.

I know you might say that is a strawman.. but differences in values and laws are actually surprising IMO.. if Jewish values are so important, why don't Christians follow the Jewish tradition better?

Once again, you are doing the same thing. Please point out to me where I said that jews believe jesus died for their sins.

I am talking about both traditions conceptual views of sin. They are the same.

I asked for examples of those shared values and you mentioned the wages of sin.. so that is why I took it as you thinking Judaism believes in wages of sin.

No. exactly. And no where in mosaic law does it mandate that jews pray to jerusalem.

The Torah isn't the only laws that Jews live by... According to the Talmud Jews were supposed to pray facing Jerusalem during the diaspora. The tradition is known as mizrah...

I'd like to meet any rabbi that considers muhammad to be the greatest prophet.

That isn't going to happen. Just like you won't find a rabbi who says Jesus is the greatest prophet... because their prophethood is a matter of faith.. not fact. That is what I kept saying earlier. Who is the second of covenant with, who is the greatest prophet? It's not fact, it's faith.

Now you will find some rabbis saying Muhammad is a prophet, but they would never say greatest prophet. It's also known that rabbis view the Muslims as "perfect monotheists" because of their shared view about the Christian Trinity.

Here is a rabbi saying Muhammad is a prophet and Muslims are perfect monotheists..

YouTube - Judaism sees devout Muslims as perfect monotheists

and here is Islamic website criticizing the trinity and why..

The Trinity doctrine is false and polytheistic.. it concludes

The Trinity, Monotheism and Incomprehensibility - House of the Crescent Moon - Comparison of Islam and Christianity, Bible & the Koran

That's exactly the point I have been trying to make for the past 3 pages, I only asked those questions to show you how you have been debating me. It is not really relevant that their are discrepancies between traditions.

I answered your questions without complaint.. and I feel that I did so intellectually and without avoiding it. Discrepancies are important when you're making statements that Hellenic philosophy didn't impact values and only Judaism impacted values. I think those values should be discussed within the context of this thread. There are differences everywhere, but as I always said.. I think the holy trinity is a pretty big deal when talking about shared Jewish/Christian values.

Jews reject Christianity for a reason, and so do Muslims.. Muslims think they're values are closer to Judaism than Christianity is, and I see the Jewish connection better... but that is just me. It doesn't matter if you think Jesus was a true prophet in the Judaic line, it's not fact.. it's faith. Ask a Jew, ask a Muslim, different faith, different answer..

You can't try to act like your arguments are grounded in facts and not Christian doctrine... because they are Christian, and I am not saying it's a bad thing either. But I can't have or pretend to have a factual debate about Jesus' prophethood (his religious message, not his ethnicity), hence my refusal to judge him for myself. I admit I don't know everything.. or God's plan, whose religion is right or wrong, was Jesus a true Jewish prophet or not.

 

[Guy Incognito]

So if someone describes their *beliefs* as Judeo-Christian (belief construct - NOT values and ethics as in the way I use the term to peg me into a hole) then I presume they are considering the things that Judaism and Christianity have in common with each other - as opposed to what makes Islam so different.

IF Islam plays a direct and meaningful role (per the biblical text) in someone's life and beliefs then I'm only *assuming* someone would consider that when they *sum up their beliefs*

It seems like you're fundamentally misunderstanding what we're talking about. Let me try to help clear things up for you.

"Judeo-Christian" and "Abrahamic" aren't terms used to describe the "belief constructs" of an individual people. They are categories that describe the collective belief constructs of billions of people over thousands of years, and how they relate to each other in terms of history and philosophy. So when most people talk about Judeo-Christian values, most people don't mean that they have developed their values from Jewish and Christian sources personally. Rather, they are referring to a relationship between the Jewish and Christian relationships that ties to two religions together in a unique way, usually used for rhetorical effect. My contention is that they are tied together in a way that is not at all unique, but in fact the relationship is mirrored in a number of other religions, namely Islam.

Therefore, it is objectively wrong to use the term "Judeo-Christian" to talk about anything. The term is not "Judeo-Christian," the term is more properly "Abrahamic." It's like using the word brontosaurus to refer to an apatosaurus. You're just wrong because you're using the wrong terminology. It's an obsolete term.

For you see, it is not me personally that is telling anyone to do anything. This is not coming from me, it is coming from the academic establishment. You can feel free to rage against the machine all you like, and try to conform reality to fit your personal "belief construct" but it won't do any good. Stuffy academics are always going to be there with "facts" to tell you what's the "truth." They're always ruining the party.

The ironic thing is, Judeo-Christian was originally used by progressive a hundred years ago (in a time when anti-Semitism was rampant) as a means of inclusiveness and togetherness between Christians and Jews in America, to emphasize the closeness between Jewish and Christian values. It was well known to be an ahistorical term even back then, of course... but at least it served a good purpose. How sad to see it being appropriated in a modern context to alienate Islam.

 

[RoccoR]

TurtleDude, et al,

The Term: "Judeo-Christian"

This is most interesting.

I don't think this term t hat seems to bother you is exclusively a Republican Term. Being a legal scholar I can recall numerous references to it in court cases-from both dem and GOP appointed federal judges.

(COMMENT)

I'm not really sure in what context we are using this term, that makes it important.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The founders made it clear, over 200 years ago, that the our government was not founded on the religion. If we use the term to express values and ethics, then it stands on its own merit; does it not?

Most Respectfully,
R