Open Letter to Republicans: Please Stop Saying "Judeo-Christian"

[deltabtry]

Kinda like people using the word Hispanic.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Jews and Muslims think Jesus is a prophet... they just don't think he is god. That is why they both reject the Christian trinity, and there are even a lot of verses in the Old Testament that support their idea.

Oh I don't think he is God either. The Bible clearly states that he was the Son of God. But still, you would think that the Son of God would have more pull than a regular prophet.

 

[Hoplite]

The OP is somewhat off, Judeo-Christian referes to the influence both Judaism and Christianity have had on the Western world in general because of the influx of Christian and Jewish citizens.

Excluding Islam isnt out of prejudice, it's because Islam has not had a serious impact on the Western world until several decades ago.

 

[Guy Incognito]

The OP is somewhat off, Judeo-Christian referes to the influence both Judaism and Christianity have had on the Western world in general because of the influx of Christian and Jewish citizens.

Excluding Islam isnt out of prejudice, it's because Islam has not had a serious impact on the Western world until several decades ago.

I disagree. The point I am making is very simply that Islam is Western. The impact the Islamic religion has had on its neighbor and sibling Chirstianity has been profound.

I think that even if the two religions had been isolated from one another my point would still remain valid, however. All three religions share roots in the same basic worldview.

But if we are to talking about the interaction of the Jewish religion with predominantly Christian countries throughout history, I think the only accurate meaning of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition is a tradition of Christians persecuting Jews, not one of common ground and shared values. So there is a traditional relationship between Jews and Christians (a "Judeo-Christian tradition" if you will), but this tradition is not a happy one. And it is certainly not the "Judeo-Christian tradition" of Republican propaganda.

When a Republican talks about the Judeo-Christian tradition, it is from the Christian-chauvinist perspective that the two religions worship the same deity. Jews do not share this outlook. This is where the prejudice comes in. By the same logic that includes the Jewish religion in the Republican definition of "Judeo-Christian," Islam ought to be included as well. Leaving it out is either a distortion or a truncation.

 

[mac]

When a Republican talks about the Judeo-Christian tradition, it is from the Christian-chauvinist perspective that the two religions worship the same deity. Jews do not share this outlook. This is where the prejudice comes in. By the same logic that includes the Jewish religion in the Republican definition of "Judeo-Christian," Islam ought to be included as well. Leaving it out is either a distortion or a truncation.

I disagree. The term simply relates to the similarity of the underlying values which serve as the basis of most western legal systems. Despite being a secular nation, our laws are a product of our values, and religions obviously play a part in the formation of them.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I disagree. The term simply relates to the similarity of the underlying values which serve as the basis of most western legal systems. Despite being a secular nation, our laws are a product of our values, and religions obviously play a part in the formation of them.

If you're looking at the "values" that inform the laws of Christian countries, then those values form part of the Abrahamic tradition. There is nothing about Judeo-Christian values that are distinct from the values any other Abrahamic religion.

 

[desertdude]

But if we are to talking about the interaction of the Jewish religion with predominantly Christian countries throughout history, I think the only accurate meaning of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition is a tradition of Christians persecuting Jews, not one of common ground and shared values. So there is a traditional relationship between Jews and Christians (a "Judeo-Christian tradition" if you will), but this tradition is not a happy one. And it is certainly not the "Judeo-Christian tradition" of Republican propaganda.

Now you're being completely disingenuous. And you're not trying to grind a personal axe here? Pfft.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Now you're being completely disingenuous. And you're not trying to grind a personal axe here? Pfft.

You are, of course, incorrect, I am not being disingenuous. If you'd like I could provide you some historical examples of Christians persecuting people of the Jewish faith. But then again, if you need citations to support that well-known fact, I'd say you're the one who's being disingenuous.

 

[SheWolf]

The term refers to nothing more than the similarity of values between the Jewish and Christian traditions. The differences in the religions is immaterial, it's the values tought that the term evokes. These values are very similar, and serve as the basis (at least initially) of American law and society.

What are the shared values between Christian and Jewish faith? I see more obvious ones between Jewish and Islam.. but that's just me.

 

[SheWolf]

The OP is somewhat off, Judeo-Christian referes to the influence both Judaism and Christianity have had on the Western world in general because of the influx of Christian and Jewish citizens.

Excluding Islam isnt out of prejudice, it's because Islam has not had a serious impact on the Western world until several decades ago.

No offense, but you have a very poor understanding of Western Civilization if you think Islam's impact didn't start until 70 years ago. Greeks and people living in the former Yugoslavia know about it particularly well, because thousands of years of Islamic (Turkish/Ottaman Empire and Byzantine history) still influences them today.

 

[Guy Incognito]

What are the shared values between Christian and Jewish faith? I see more obvious ones between Jewish and Islam.. but that's just me.

I don't think you're wrong about that. The theological similarities between Judaism and Islam are much closer than Judaism and Christianity. Judaism and Islam are both strictly monotheistic, whereas Christianity has a sort of quasi-monotheism that Muslims and Jews regard as polytheism.

 

[SheWolf]

You are, of course, incorrect, I am not being disingenuous. If you'd like I could provide you some historical examples of Christians persecuting people of the Jewish faith. But then again, if you need citations to support that well-known fact, I'd say you're the one who's being disingenuous.

I think it's funny when Christians try to convert Jewish people... I have a few friends they always bothering about converting.

 

[SheWolf]

I disagree. The term simply relates to the similarity of the underlying values which serve as the basis of most western legal systems. Despite being a secular nation, our laws are a product of our values, and religions obviously play a part in the formation of them.

I wouldn't say Israel is a Western Nation.. and I wouldn't say many, if any Western Nations, were ever founded on Mosaic Law (law of the Israelite people as written in the Torah). The Holy Roman Empire was the first Christian Empire, and they operated on some ideas that are even biblically supported like "the divine right of kings."

You are pretty much propagating a Conservative myth about America being founded on Christian ( or Judeo Christian) values.. The bible says nothing about democracy or republics. The state of Israel operates differently than America and closer to Europe because it's a parliamentary system. Israel also finances religious courts including Rabbinical and Sharia courts.

 

[SheWolf]

The later introduction of some pagan elements (which have very little to do with actual moral principles in christianity, by the way) does not negate the fact that christianity arose out of judaism originally.

Discussing later divergences adds nothing to the discussion of whether or not judaism gave rise to christianity.

They were not later divergences.. divergences took place immediately and that is why people where burned as heretics, and that is why there are saints in the Catholic church that historians believe never really existed and were actually pagan gods or goddess at one time...

Divergences is also why the Catholic Church took on some Pagan traditions like praying to saints (saints with names and scared symbols similar to Pagan gods). This may have happened later than sooner, since the apostles played a role in forming the Catholic Church and recommending some of the first popes. The spread of Christianity throughout Europe didn't take place immediately, but as it did spread.. the Pagan divergences took over immediately.

the mention in acts is the first known use, in references to christians in antioch. This was 30-40 years after the death of christ.

You said the first use of Christian happened long after Jesus and his followers.. and now it sounds like your back pedaling. You kept trying to argue that the apostles were seen as a early Jewish sect, which is incorrect.

They were seen as Christians after the death of Jesus and as soon as they started spreading the gospel to other people... non Jews. Jewish people who accept Jesus are considered Messianic Jews today.. very different from Christians. They maintain more of the values and practices associated with Judaism than Christians do. They also have a distinct view of Jesus, as they believe they are his chosen..

You left an important part out. I "don't think religious practices and tradition of Islam has anything to do with the term Judeo Christian being correct or incorrect." Please go back to the post you are quoting from to see the original context.

You think only the religious beliefs of the prophet has something to do with term Judeo Christian. But how much of Jesus' religious beliefs were considered Jewish or not, is something I am not in the position to judge.. so IMO, the only thing that really has any weight here is the fact that he was ethnically Jewish.. We know he was considered blasphemous by many other Jews and he angered them, but that is all we can say. I am not going to judge his faith or his religious devotion or commitment to Judaism... what a crock of ****.

Why do you think you have some kind of position the judge his religious commitment?

He was judged by Constantine, Jewish people, and many others in ancient Rome already.

No. I was talking about culture/religion. not ethnicity.

See above

I certainly can. Jesus, and all his apostles were originally jewish (their religion).

see above

In following Jesus, who quoted and taught from jewish law, there is no reason they would have seen his teachings as a foriegn religion.

How do you know this? I mean... put it in context, the apostles went out and spread teachings to everybody, non Jews and gave them a very different, not very Jewish teaching about the Children of Israel. Aside from that.. they didn't turn Christianity into a branch of Judaism.

That does not matter. As I have said, many times, Islam has incorporated many aspects of judaism, although it was indirect--muhammad was never a practicing jew, nor was Islam ever a jewish sect--heretical or otherwise.

Abraham kicked Hagar and his son out of his house.. so that is why Muhammad never had the chance to be a practicing Jew. However he is still a decedent of Abraham through Ishmael. Jesus is a decedent of Abraham through David.

It is believed that they have common ancestry.. and like I said.. I think ethnicity has more to do with the argument you are trying to make, or at least it should.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Curious as to why this issue is only being directly to 'Republicans'
Surely Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists et al have also used this term in what you have stated to be 'inaccurate'

Also curious as to why you are trying to insist that those who are Christian or Jewish - or whatever terms they use - must also connect their beliefs to Islam.

 

[other]

They were not later divergences.. divergences took place immediately and that is why people where burned as heretics, and that is why there are saints in the Catholic church that historians believe never really existed and were actually pagan gods or goddess at one time...

...divergence, not on an individual basis, but of the religion as a whole.

The spread of Christianity throughout Europe didn't take place immediately, but as it did spread.. the Pagan divergences took over immediately.

right. thanks for making my point. the pagan influences from european tribes came later, over time. Please note that this also has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not early christianity was influenced by judaism.

You said the first use of Christian happened long after Jesus and his followers.. and now it sounds like your back pedaling.

Maybe you should read what I said again. I wasn't "back-pedaling," I was showing how your previous point was wrong.

You kept trying to argue that the apostles were seen as a early Jewish sect, which is incorrect.

they were a branch off of judaism.

They were seen as Christians after the death of Jesus and as soon as they started spreading the gospel to other people... non Jews.

we have no evidence of this. As I said earlier, the earliest historical evidence that christians were separate was years after... and I even pulled this from your quotation of Acts, concerning the christians of Antioch.

Jewish people who accept Jesus are considered Messianic Jews today..[...]

totally irrelevant.

You think only the religious beliefs of the prophet has something to do with term Judeo Christian.

what are you even talking about?

But how much of Jesus' religious beliefs were considered Jewish or not, is something I am not in the position to judge..

do you know anything about christianity?

so IMO, the only thing that really has any weight here is the fact that he was ethnically Jewish.. We know he was considered blasphemous by many other Jews and he angered them, but that is all we can say. I am not going to judge his faith or his religious devotion or commitment to Judaism... what a crock of ****.

1) calm down.
2) ethnicity...still irrelevant.

Why do you think you have some kind of position the judge his religious commitment?

why don't you stick to the discussion instead of getting emotional?

He was judged by Constantine and many other people in ancient Rome already.

constantine was not a contemporary of Jesus, you are a few centuries off here.

How do you know this? [...]

Well, do you deny that jesus taught jewish law and scripture?

Abraham kicked Hagar and his son out of his house.. so that is why Muhammad never had the chance to be a practicing Jew. However he is still a decedent of Abraham through Ishmael. Jesus is a decedent of Abraham through David.

It is believed that they have common ancestry.. and like I said.. I think ethnicity has more to do with the argument you are trying to make, or at least it should.

:doh

 

[desertdude]

You are, of course, incorrect, I am not being disingenuous. If you'd like I could provide you some historical examples of Christians persecuting people of the Jewish faith. But then again, if you need citations to support that well-known fact, I'd say you're the one who's being disingenuous.

No, you have too much knowledge to sincerely make such an asinine statement--that was purely to provoke. You apparently know much about history, but you're using it here to grind an axe. I called you out on it based on your first post and you've done protested too much about it since--you can only volunteer "I'm not here to argue about religion" or "I'm just looking at it from a historical perspective" so many times before it's clear that the opposite is true. But it's find to grind an axe and you have lots of information to share, so what's the point of the silly linguistics pretext? Just tell us about how Christianity evolved and express your feelings openly towards the religious right.

 

[mac]

If you're looking at the "values" that inform the laws of Christian countries, then those values form part of the Abrahamic tradition. There is nothing about Judeo-Christian values that are distinct from the values any other Abrahamic religion.

So? Similarities in Judeo-Christian values and Abrahamic values do not negate the similarity in the values of Jews and Christians.

 

[mac]

What are the shared values between Christian and Jewish faith? I see more obvious ones between Jewish and Islam.. but that's just me.

You are confusing the details of worship with the underlying value systems. A main shared value is family structure, and adherence to the laws first laid out in the old testament.

 

[mac]

Curious as to why this issue is only being directly to 'Republicans'
Surely Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists et al have also used this term in what you have stated to be 'inaccurate'

Also curious as to why you are trying to insist that those who are Christian or Jewish - or whatever terms they use - must also connect their beliefs to Islam.

True, I had an ethics professor once who was far more liberal than any other person I had ever met that used the term frequently. Her approach to ethics was entirely secular, but didn't ignore the influence of religion on societal value systems.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

True, I had an ethics professor once who was far more liberal than any other person I had ever met that used the term frequently. Her approach to ethics was entirely secular, but didn't ignore the influence of religion on societal value systems.

My very liberal Literature teacher last year used the term "Myth" to describe religions - the "Christian myth" and so on.
I liked that but found that many are very offende - which tempts me into using it more often.

I could coin my values to be "Myth-fostered Judeo-Christian sans Islamification"

 

[mac]

My very liberal Literature teacher last year used the term "Myth" to describe religions - the "Christian myth" and so on.
I liked that but found that many are very offende - which tempts me into using it more often.

I could coin my values to be "Myth-fostered Judeo-Christian sans Islamification"

I think Jews would be just as offended by "Jewish Myth" and Muslims "Islamic Myth". My neighboors (and friends) are Jewish and I asked them if they were at all offended by the term Judeo-Christian. They both kind of looked at me blankley and said "Why would we be?"

I think if something is said with the intention to discredit or belittle, then it will be percieved as offensive, but saying Judeo-Christian seems to only offend secular liberals.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I think if something is said with the intention to discredit or belittle, then it will be percieved as offensive, but saying Judeo-Christian seems to only offend secular liberals.

It doesn't offend me at all when other people ignorantly use outdated terminology. That's there problem. But some people are innocently unaware that "Judeo-Christian" is a nonsense term. I'm just trying to do a public service here.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Curious as to why this issue is only being directly to 'Republicans'
Surely Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists et al have also used this term in what you have stated to be 'inaccurate'

Curious why you didn't notice that I had addressed this point on the top of the second page of this thread:

I figure that generally it's Republicans who use it, it makes sense to address it to you guys.

I don't think anybody should be using it, really.

Also curious as to why you are trying to insist that those who are Christian or Jewish - or whatever terms they use - must also connect their beliefs to Islam.

This point I have also made repeatedly. You don't say "Harpo and Chico, the Marx Brothers," or "Larry and Moe, the Three Stooges," do you? I don't know you, so perhaps you do truncate groups of three as a matter of habit.

Of course you have a right to think they way you do, but it is as wrong as you can get. Continuing our Marx Brothers analogy, it's like you're saying "Harpo and Chico were the only true member of the Marx Brothers because Groucho had different values." You can incorrectly think that all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that all scholars of 1920s film agree that there were three Marx Brothers.

I think it's ridiculous to leave out the third member of a group for no reason, which is precisely what the term Judeo-Christian does. It marginalizes the impact Islam has had on the Western religious tradition, and it doesn't identify any discrete religious tradition.

I've got news for you all, Islam has the same "family structure" and "values" that Christianity does. I think it is hilarious that all these people are arguing that "Judeo-Christian" is a valid term, but none of them can say what it is about "Judeo-Christian" values that are so different from Islam.

Could it be because the term "Judeo-Christian" is bankrupt, and the only thing that compels people to use it is xenophobic impulse to distance themselves from the Islamic religion?

What's even more hilarious is that anybody who disagrees with me would realize they were wrong if they'd just take five minutes to do some real research.

 

[SheWolf]

...divergence, not on an individual basis, but of the religion as a whole.

When do you think Christianity started?

Maybe you should read what I said again. I wasn't "back-pedaling," I was showing how your previous point was wrong.

Maybe you should reread what you said.. You said Christian wasn't a term that was used until long after Jesus and the apostles. The apostles were alive and using that term. The New Testament even lays out values for Christians.. who wrote the NT, the apostles did

they were a branch off of judaism.

Prove it.. and prove they were seen as Jewish by the other Jews, that there was no controversy about it.

we have no evidence of this. As I said earlier, the earliest historical evidence that christians were separate was years after... and I even pulled this from your quotation of Acts, concerning the christians of Antioch.

And it says.... in Antioch the first disciples were called Christians. The first disciples... that is interesting, the first people who accepted the Gospels and they were ethnically non ethnic Jewish. The first disciples were not considered Jewish.

Honestly, you are trying to argue ethnicity and religion prior to Jesus. You are not arguing values.. Peter the apostle in known to be the first pope of the Catholic Church, so he wasn't seen as Jewish, and I don't know if he was ever a practicing Jew or just an ethnic Jew.. but he was seen as a Christian when he was spreading the Gospels of Christ.

The values and beliefs about the Children of Israel diverged from Judaism.. and still does, hence Messianic Jews are Jewish Christians

what are you even talking about?

Must I explain it again?? You think only the religious beliefs of the prophet (Jesus) has something to do with term Judeo Christian.

do you know anything about christianity?

Funny.. I was wondering if you know anything about Christianity and Judaism. It seems to be constantly going over your head that Jesus' values were controversial to Jews and they saw him as a blasphemer. How much of his beliefs were orthodox Jewish or was he trying to create a new covenant? Was he just trying to correct orthodox Jewish beliefs that were in error, only for the Jews?

That is a theological debate.. Some religions think he was only a prophet for the Jews and others think he was a prophet for everybody, hence the differing views about the Children of Israel that the apostles taught.. They were very different values from Jewish.

New Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You ask if I understand Christianity.. and I do. I also have a good understanding of Judaism and Islam.. how much do you honestly know about Judaism and Islam? How they view Jesus? If you honestly know, it shouldn't be hard to understand what I have been trying to say for pages and pages.

The big difference is who Jesus was, and who he came for.. who were his prophesies for? Only Jesus can say that... for everybody else it's a matter of faith.

That is why there are three different Abrahamic religions, so it seems you are debating from a more biased POV than I am.

How well do you understand Judaism?

1) calm down.
2) ethnicity...still irrelevant.

Judaism disagrees

constantine was not a contemporary of Jesus, you are a few centuries off here.

Are you unaware that the apostles diverged on opinions after the death of Jesus, and had their own teachings? Constantine played a role in the formation of Christianity, the first council of nicaea, and the early formation of the Catholic Church. The apostles were there... Peter and Paul were also involved with the early formation of the Catholic Church.

Well, do you deny that jesus taught jewish law and scripture?

Did Muhammad teach Jewish Law and scripture?

If you follow the conversation up to this point.. it sounds like you're a Messianic Jew or Muslim saying Jesus was Jewish, ethnically and spiritually, and was a prophet for the Jews.

Do you think he was only revealing revelation for the Jews or for other people? Do you think his New Covenant was a Christian covenant or a Jewish one that excludes everybody but the 12 Tribes of Israel?