On my conversion from atheism

[RAMOSS]

Not really, since the phrase 'power of reason' is translated from the Greek word logikosʹ, which means 'rational' or 'intelligent'...

I can give you an example. There are many Christians that have reasoned that Jesus is both God and the Son of god based on the scripture. Would you say that is 'rational' and 'intelligent'? If so, why don't you accept it? Is it being rational or rationalizing?

 

[RAMOSS]

And you don't have to show that it isn't the case. You can just state that they are delusional, and you don't need any evidence.

I can offer an alternative, such as they are misinterpreting a self generated experience. Can you show they aren't? There is the experence, and then there is the interpretation of the experience.

 

[Daisy]

I can give you an example. There are many Christians that have reasoned that Jesus is both God and the Son of god based on the scripture. Would you say that is 'rational' and 'intelligent'? If so, why don't you accept it? Is it being rational or rationalizing?

Because scripture does not support that belief...some doctrine written centuries later does...

 

[Good4Nothin]

I can offer an alternative, such as they are misinterpreting a self generated experience. Can you show they aren't? There is the experence, and then there is the interpretation of the experience.

So you can proclaim that they are delusional, with no evidence. And I would have to somehow provide evidence that they aren't delusional.

For you, the default is your preconception, your dogmatic atheism. It is my problem to provide the scientific evidence. Not your problem, because you already "know" your atheism is correct. No evidence needed.

 

[RAMOSS]

Because scripture does not support that belief...some doctrine written centuries later does...

Yet, they claim they came to that conclusion FROM scriptures. Are they being rational or are they rationalizing. It has to be one or the other.

 

[RAMOSS]

So you can proclaim that they are delusional, with no evidence. And I would have to somehow provide evidence that they aren't delusional.

For you, the default is your preconception, your dogmatic atheism. It is my problem to provide the scientific evidence. Not your problem, because you already "know" your atheism is correct. No evidence needed.

Do I?? I know Jesus is not God. But, I come from a Jewish tradition.

 

[davidhume]

Having been an atheist for a decade or so, I ended up becoming a Christian again in my mid 20s. As with most converts I have known and read, the real conversion was in two parts. The first came from reasoning through my childhood faith, an undeveloped belief system is which there was little to differentiate God and Santa Clause, a catch all for all that was good in my life.As I grew away from my faith I rejected it for all the same reasons you see it rejected here. I was, I now understand, a slave to my five sense. It is a weird thing to hit that rational breakthrough where God makes more sense.. I have since considered the irony of atheist me, both demanding sensory proof of God from the faithful while also lecturing them of the weaknesses inherent in human sensory experience to explain away their own experiences. I had built the theory and a set of demanded proofs that were entirely contradictory.

I find, though language is a limiter in varying degrees for those describing the final awakening experience, that the experience of the convert to have a rather common theme. I have never heard it explained better than it was by author John C. Wright, who went from staunch atheism to being baptized Catholic in 2008. In his retelling, he had been experimenting with prayer as an atheist, a "I know you probably aren't real, but if you are then send me a sign." type of prayer in which he didn't pretend to be a believer in his prayer, he just called into the darkness for what might be there. He explained what happened later as follows:

“Something from beyond the reach of time and space, more fundamental than reality, reached across the universe and broke into my soul and changed me…I was altered down to the root of my being…It was like falling in love.”

I have found that to be as near spot on as I have found to my own experience.

Later after that experience I would begin reading the classic Christian apologia by C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, and again, something hit home with me in C.S. Lewis' book "Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer" where Lewis delves into something that I had never really considered. He asserted in one letter that the most sincere prayer, in his view, is a prayer without words. He saw words as limiting, and asserted that there is a deeper relationship with God than mere words can do justice. He used an interesting analogy with music: He argued that music is a language without words-- and if it were to be forced into words it would be a language comprised entirely of adjectives -- and so faith, for me, more closely resembles an internal symphony than a dialogue.

The music started for me 20 years ago this week, and I have been working on my listening skills ever since.

Why do people feel the need to convert to anything?

 

[Daisy]

Yet, they claim they came to that conclusion FROM scriptures. Are they being rational or are they rationalizing. It has to be one or the other.

The latter...

 

[Good4Nothin]

Do I?? I know Jesus is not God. But, I come from a Jewish tradition.

Where do you think I mentioned Jesus?

 

[devildavid]

Atheism is disbelief in the existence of God. Atheism is the belief that god does not exist.

If we agree on this, then we agree.

What is the existence of God and why does it require a belief decision at all? If you are talking about the man made concept of god then you must present a good reason why a man made concept requires anyone to believe it is anything more than a concept, an idea. And why this idea requires some sort of belief decision that goes beyond acknowledging it is an idea, one of many that man has conceived. It is apparent that the concept of god is real and was invented by man. That is all we can know about the concept of god. It exists as a concept. Theists took a leap and claimed that an entity called god exists. Atheists called foul on this leap.

 

[devildavid]

Why do people feel the need to convert to anything?

Exactly. I didn't convert to atheism. I finally examined the religion I was raised in and found it to be based on something totally make believe.

 

[Conaeolos]

Why do people feel the need to convert to anything?

Personal transformation. When the memory of oneself and the sense of oneself become incongruent in that moment one is said to have ‘converted’ this is often associated with a core belief change which reframes the way one identifies.

God is often involved since this refers to the absolute expression of why there is an ‘I’ at all. How was subconsciously frames their meaning infinitely affect how one experiences the world. Imagine you always saw Life as unimportant and cruel then suddenly it was a gift and full of wonder. The person who’s memories you knew as you before that moment would seem completely different from the person you see staring back in the mirror. That is conversion. Life being more subtle of course, the point of transformation can be less clear as small changes slowly happen over time until this conversion takes place as what only seems like a surprise.

 

[Conaeolos]

Exactly. I didn't convert to atheism. I finally examined the religion I was raised in and found it to be based on something totally make believe.

I just wanted to note I would agree with this statement as this seems more an example of de-conversion. In that process one suspicion about some aspect of their own identity grows to the point that they see it as less and less true until one day it seem downright foreign [like getting taken in by a con then having an aha moment].Rather than a change what we see here is something seemly genuine turning into a falsehood from the outside.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Atheism is disbelief in the existence of God. Atheism is the belief that god does not exist.

If we agree on this, then we agree.

The use of the word "disbelief" implies that one has to or should believe in a thing.
It is a word used by persons who see nothing wrong with shoving their beliefs down the throats of others.
I for one will not allow you to use the word "disbelief" with me, because were I an atheist, it would not be because I made a conscious choice to "disbelieve" something, it would be because I did not find enough evidence to convince me TO believe.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference is telling, and it represents a serious personality flaw.
Stick that word on me and I'll disbelieve your existence on this forum immediately as a prophylactic measure to protect my mental outlook.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Exactly. I didn't convert to atheism. I finally examined the religion I was raised in and found it to be based on something totally make believe.

There is no such thing as "conversion TO" atheism because atheism is a lack of theism.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

If atheism is not a belief, it is nothing.

It is nothing.

 

[RAMOSS]

Where do you think I mentioned Jesus?

That is something that is often thrown at me, yet I know its a false claim. Doesn't matter who said it or doesn't. It's my personal knowledge

 

[davidhume]

Personal transformation. When the memory of oneself and the sense of oneself become incongruent in that moment one is said to have ‘converted’ this is often associated with a core belief change which reframes the way one identifies.

God is often involved since this refers to the absolute expression of why there is an ‘I’ at all. How was subconsciously frames their meaning infinitely affect how one experiences the world. Imagine you always saw Life as unimportant and cruel then suddenly it was a gift and full of wonder. The person who’s memories you knew as you before that moment would seem completely different from the person you see staring back in the mirror. That is conversion. Life being more subtle of course, the point of transformation can be less clear as small changes slowly happen over time until this conversion takes place as what only seems like a surprise.

Let me know when you convert to something else.

 

[Manc Skipper]

This is New Atheist nonsense -- literally nonsense -- it makes no sense. I must start our thread on this. Save your breath for the thread.
Dor the nonxe, to answer your question: no, I'm saying that the so-called "lack of belief" is in fact a belief (though New Atheists wish to deny this) and that without that denied belief atheism is nothing -- it's an empty name.

It's a label applied by theists. A-theists don't have a belief in gods. This irrational insitence by theists seeking to denigrate atheism by calling it a religion, like their belief is, isn't very well thought through. If the "religion" of atheism were a hair colour, it would be bald.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

"Imagine you always saw Life as unimportant and cruel..."

That WAS my life as a kid with Tourettes and Asperger's until around age fifteen. (Maybe fourteen, it was a long time ago)
Life was cruel, and therefore unimportant. It consisted of being ostracized and beaten on a daily basis, and going from one point of isolation and despair to another, buffered only by a singular and all-consuming fascination with electronics, almost to the exclusion of all else.

"...then suddenly it was a gift and full of wonder. The person who’s memories you knew as you before that moment would seem completely different from the person you see staring back in the mirror."

You've just successfully described my very first experience with psychedelics, which ultimately broke me out of my "prison" and opened the world for me as a social creature for the first time in my heretofore relatively miserable existence.



(1970)


So yes, you could say that I underwent a conversion of sorts. I learned how to interact with other human beings in a more fulfilling way, and the favor was largely returned. PS: My Tourettes also subsided somewhat, and over the years as I've grown older it is now deep in the background, only manifesting itself if I am under a large amount of stress and little sleep at the same time.
In other words, if I am kind to myself and take care of my physical needs, my Tourettes isn't very apparent.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

It's a label applied by theists. A-theists don't have a belief in gods. This irrational insitence by theists seeking to denigrate atheism by calling it a religion, like their belief is, isn't very well thought through. If the "religion" of atheism were a hair colour, it would be bald.

It's a lot like the notion that you could apply Toppik to someone who is completely and utterly shaved bald.
You have to at least have SOME hair there for the fibers to work.



Theists are like people who insist that a 100% percent shaved bald person simply MUST HAVE some hidden hair underneath their skin.

PS: I am NOT a Toppik user. Perhaps if I had a career as on-screen talent I might resort to it but if that were the case I'd much rather spring for hair implants instead. I've learned to grudgingly accept my baldness LOL.

But a lot of older newscasters and actors do use the stuff, at least if they are appearing on camera.

 

[roughdraft274]

Well, part of it is in the body of my original post. The experience of my conversion wasn't in any way my five senses. As I tried to explain, it was an experience beyond words. I gave two examples of the best words I have found to explain it, but they still fall short.



Well, at the root of almost all religions is the same basic tenets of faith (a higher power, be good to one another, do good works). In accepting that faith and experiencing God transcends language it would be silly of me to then confine experience of God to a specific dialect. As a Christian I was taught and have come to trust that God's word is written on every heart. I don't think that being Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist is necessarily a disqualifier to salvation, since Jesus was God's word made flesh, so accepting God's word written on your heart is a belief in the saving message of Jesus.

I do, however, equate faith to being lost in a cold forest, and salvation as a warm cottage in that forest with a fire and a hot meal. While it is possible to stumble through the forest and happen on the cottage on your own, I think Christianity has the best map.



As many former atheists will tell you, we all thought the same thing until it happened.

Yea i completely understand what youre saying but i feel it doesnt negate what i said in my first post. And its a mishmash of arguments on this post. Its proof that religion is true because theres a bunch of different kinds all beleiving entirely different things? You had to talk in incredibly vague generalities to try to get all of the religions under the same umbrella. And it still gives us nothing to indicate the truth of the matter. Someone who raised a child thinking it was their child would likely be upset if they found out it wasnt their child and might would be much happier if they never even found out becausr they feel its their kid and have all of the love as if it was. But it doesnt change the truth of the matter. And if that person found out it doesnt mean the love goes away.

And you say many atheists thought the same til they didnt. But there are just as many former religious people that thought they were having religious experiences that now realize it was just a rush of emotions that could be had at a concert or through other experiences. Either way, private and personal experiences proves nothing to anyone except possible the person who experienced it. And even then you dont really know.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Quaestio]

I had some discussions abut 6 years ago on a forum with a guy who said he had been an atheist but started to believe in a 'God" after doing transcendental meditation for several years. He was convinced he could feel a sense of some 'presence' and of feeling a 'oneness with the universe'.

Some people describe a feeling of euphoria, or a sense of 'oneness with everything' when praying or meditating. It's interesting to see brain imaging studies about this. When the activity in the parietal lobe is decreased by deep mediation or prayer, a person's sense of self in space and time is 'blocked' and so it subjectively 'feels' like they are "One with the Universe". It's physical, not metaphysical.


How do meditation and prayer change our brains?

"To look at the neurophysiology of religious and spiritual practices, we used a brain imaging technology called single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT), which allows us to measure blood flow. The more blood flow a brain area has, the more active it is. When we scanned the brains of Tibetan Buddhist meditators, we found decreased activity in the parietal lobe during meditation. This area of the brain is responsible for giving us a sense of our orientation in space and time. We hypothesize that blocking all sensory and cognitive input into this area during meditation is associated with the sense of no space and no time that is so often described in meditation."

 

[jmotivator]

I am not sure that I can classify C.S. Lewis as an apologist.

It's late, so I am going to do a quick response to this point. In this case "apologist" is the classic definition, a writer of apologia, a written defense of one's opinion.

Happy New Year.

 

[jmotivator]

I had some discussions abut 6 years ago on a forum with a guy who said he had been an atheist but started to believe in a 'God" after doing transcendental meditation for several years. He was convinced he could feel a sense of some 'presence' and of feeling a 'oneness with the universe'.

Some people describe a feeling of euphoria, or a sense of 'oneness with everything' when praying or meditating. It's interesting to see brain imaging studies about this. When the activity in the parietal lobe is decreased by deep mediation or prayer, a person's sense of self in space and time is 'blocked' and so it subjectively 'feels' like they are "One with the Universe". It's physical, not metaphysical.

I addressed this earlier. We are physical beings, so we can always track physical response to our experiences, that isn't actually an argument against the existence of God. I mean, you look at your keyboard which, as an experiences, is entirely the exchange of chemicals within your brain and body ... that doesn't prove that the keyboard doesn't exist.