• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

On eve of Obama-Netanyahu meet, Abbas offers Jerusalem compromise

jujuman13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
4,075
Reaction score
579
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It matters very little what the PLO offers, what is of far greater importance is what will Hamas accept (if anything), because without Hamas agreement, not only for whatever deal is hammered out but also for complete acceptance of previously signed agreements. Whatever is finally decided will not be worth the paper it will be written on.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
History. Israel has been burned far too many times in the past. One prays for Peace, and one HOPES this is a legit move. However, to suggest, as Orion did that Israel isn't interested in Peace is patently dishonest.

Most of the time things go south, it is the Palestinian's fault, but not always. Wasn't there an Israeli PM who was assassinated by Jewish Fundamentalists for proposing to give up parts of the west bank?
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Israel should have 100% control of all their capital city. Palestine should receive none of it and there should be no partitioning of the Israeli capital.

There is a massive Palestinian population in the eastern part of the city. To not give that part of the city to the Palestinians would be denying them land that has long been theirs.
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
There is a massive Palestinian population in the eastern part of the city. To not give that part of the city to the Palestinians would be denying them land that has long been theirs.

Well, perhaps the Arabs shouldn't have started the wars with the State of Israel... when you lose wars you start, you usually lose territory...
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,490
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's PeteEU, special envoy for promoting the European Promotion of the Palastinian Cause, what do you expect from him Shayah?

Moderator's Warning:
Can't do this, MrV.
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Yep. Jerusalem is Israel's capitol city, they should have the right to all of their capitol and not partition it.

Except no one recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It's not "their" capital. I suggest actually learning the history of Jerusalem before posting statements that are ignorant of historical relevance.
 

24107

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
2,809
Reaction score
824
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
He completely misrepresented the study, the study proves that not only do Jews have a strong genetic afinity for the region but that Palestinians have an Arab specific genetic marker which separates them from the rest of the Middle Eastern population in the region.
How did I 'misrepresent the study'?i merely posted what was stated about the study. And this is what was stated.
Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians,[15][16] together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
There is a massive Palestinian population in the eastern part of the city. To not give that part of the city to the Palestinians would be denying them land that has long been theirs.

That land was never under the control of the "Palestinian Arabs".
Never in history did the group known back then to be the "Palestinian Arabs" and known now to be the "Palestinians" have ever controlled the land.
It was, since the 20th century, under Ottoman control, under British control, under Jewish control, under Jordanian control and now under Jewish control again.
I do agree however that there are certain parts in East Jerusalem where there are Arab population centers, and that's why I believe that in a final conclusive agreement Israel should give the Palestinians the Arab quarter of the city.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Except no one recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It's not "their" capital. I suggest actually learning the history of Jerusalem before posting statements that are ignorant of historical relevance.

Well actually you'd find out that no country has the right to designate a capital to a nation except the nation itself.
By law, when Israel has designated Jerusalem as its capital, it has made it its capital.
This is why you'd find "Jerusalem" under the title "Capital" when searching about Israel in major sources such as the CIA factbook and Wikipedia.
It is the Israeli capital and that's not going to change.
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Well actually you'd find out that no country has the right to designate a capital to a nation except the nation itself.
Well I never said that a foreign country could do that. I merely said no country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
By law, when Israel has designated Jerusalem as its capital, it has made it its capital.
Care to cite this 'law'?
This is why you'd find "Jerusalem" under the title "Capital" when searching about Israel in major sources such as the CIA factbook and Wikipedia.
Yes, with a nice little side note added to it:
Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jerusalem Law states that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel" and the city serves as the seat of the government, home to the President's residence, government offices, supreme court, and parliament. United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 (Aug. 20, 1980; 14–0, U.S. abstaining) declared the Jerusalem Law "null and void" and called on member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from Jerusalem. The United Nations and all member nations refuse to accept the Jerusalem Law (see Kellerman 1993, p. 140) and maintain their embassies in other cities such as Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, and Herzliya (see the CIA Factbook and Map of Israel).
It is the Israeli capital and that's not going to change.
Only time will tell.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Well I never said that a foreign country could do that. I merely said no country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
And that doesn't change the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital.
Care to cite this 'law'?
I didn't say that there is an actual law stating that, I've meant that from the eyes of the law, the only one who really has something to say about the capital of a sovereign state is the sovereign state itself. There is no law that claims the international community can designate the capital of a sovereign state.
Yes, with a nice little side note added to it
Who cares, they tell you that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and that's all that matters.
Only time will tell.
43 years have spoken.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
That land was never under the control of the "Palestinian Arabs".
Never in history did the group known back then to be the "Palestinian Arabs" and known now to be the "Palestinians" have ever controlled the land.
It was, since the 20th century, under Ottoman control, under British control, under Jewish control, under Jordanian control and now under Jewish control again.
I do agree however that there are certain parts in East Jerusalem where there are Arab population centers, and that's why I believe that in a final conclusive agreement Israel should give the Palestinians the Arab quarter of the city.

This is how I've always seen it: I consider myself a Terran (because Earthling sounds silly). I am an American. I am a Californian. I am a Norcali. I am a Sacramentan. I am a midtowner (my part of Sacramento.) If you had to ask which one of those I am, or which one I gave my ultimate loyalties or identity to, I'm not sure if I could really narrow it down. I assume that other people have the same list of identities and allegiences. Just because they were also Ottomans or Arabs or Syrians doesn't mean they weren't also Palestinians just as me being an American doesn't stop me from being a Sacramentan.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Well, perhaps the Arabs shouldn't have started the wars with the State of Israel... when you lose wars you start, you usually lose territory...

Who is "right" doesn't matter, what matters is that both sides can agree to stop fighting.
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
This is how I've always seen it: I consider myself a Terran (because Earthling sounds silly). I am an American. I am a Californian. I am a Norcali. I am a Sacramentan. I am a midtowner (my part of Sacramento.) If you had to ask which one of those I am, or which one I gave my ultimate loyalties or identity to, I'm not sure if I could really narrow it down. I assume that other people have the same list of identities and allegiences. Just because they were also Ottomans or Arabs or Syrians doesn't mean they weren't also Palestinians just as me being an American doesn't stop me from being a Sacramentan.

You would be hard pressed to find documentation of a separate group identifying themselves as Palestinians any time before the 1960s. Remember, what is now regarded as "Palestine" was part of Jordan and Egypt before 1967 and before that was part of the League of Nations British Mandate, and before that had been under Ottoman control, and before that had spells under Seljuk control, Crusader control, Arab control, Roman control, etc. but no such thing as a separate, conscious Palestinian identity really existed until very recent times...
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Who is "right" doesn't matter, what matters is that both sides can agree to stop fighting.

And what we need is the Arabs to agree to stop fighting and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Ramallah can serve just nicely as the Palestinian capital, as far as I am concerned...
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
And what we need is the Arabs to agree to stop fighting and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Ramallah can serve just nicely as the Palestinian capital, as far as I am concerned...

Why do they need to do that?
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Why do they need to do that?

Why do they need to stop fighting?!?!? Yeah, I suppose perpetual warfare is good for the PR of the Palestinians because the world always chooses to see Israel as the problem and as long as it continues, they can continue to gain the sympathy of the international community.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Why do they need to stop fighting?!?!? Yeah, I suppose perpetual warfare is good for the PR of the Palestinians because the world always chooses to see Israel as the problem and as long as it continues, they can continue to gain the sympathy of the international community.

No, what I mean is why do they just have to give up on their aims and concede a whole undivided Jerusalem as the Israeli capital
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
And that doesn't change the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital.
According to Israel. It is a fact that the rest of the world does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
I didn't say that there is an actual law stating that, I've meant that from the eyes of the law, the only one who really has something to say about the capital of a sovereign state is the sovereign state itself.
In the eyes of what 'law'? Israeli law or international law?
There is no law that claims the international community can designate the capital of a sovereign state.
The Avalon Project : United Nations Charter; June 26, 1945
The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter.
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 - Wikisource
2. Affirms that the enactment of the "basic law" by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;

3. Determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent "basic law" on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith;
Who cares, they tell you that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and that's all that matters.
That is disingenuous. Both the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia state that Jerusalem's is proclaimed as Israel's capital by Israel and that this proclaimation is disputed by the rest of the world. And it's all that matters to you. To the rest of the world, Jerusalem's status is disputed.
43 years have spoken.
Wow... 43 whole years! That is such a long time compared to two milleniums of history in Jerusalem! :roll:
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You would be hard pressed to find documentation of a separate group identifying themselves as Palestinians any time before the 1960s. Remember, what is now regarded as "Palestine" was part of Jordan and Egypt before 1967 and before that was part of the League of Nations British Mandate, and before that had been under Ottoman control, and before that had spells under Seljuk control, Crusader control, Arab control, Roman control, etc. but no such thing as a separate, conscious Palestinian identity really existed until very recent times...
Untrue:

Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Whatever the differing viewpoints over the timing, causal mechanisms, and orientation of Palestinian nationalism, by the early 20th century strong opposition to Zionism and evidence of a burgeoning nationalistic Palestinian identity is found in the content of Arabic-language newspapers in Palestinian Territories, such as Al-Karmil (est. 1908) and Filasteen (est. 1911).[41] Filasteen, published in Jaffa by Issa and Yusef al-Issa, addressed its readers as "Palestinians", (Arabic: al-filasTīnīyyūn)[42] first focusing its critique of Zionism around the failure of the Ottoman administration to control Jewish immigration and the large influx of foreigners, later exploring the impact of Zionist land-purchases on Palestinian peasants (Arabic: فلاحين‎, fellahin), expressing growing concern over land dispossession and its implications for the society at large
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
And what we need is the Arabs to agree to stop fighting and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Ramallah can serve just nicely as the Palestinian capital, as far as I am concerned...
Tel Aviv can serve as the capital of Israel as far as I am concerned (it basically is right now).

What we need is for Israel to finally recognize that it is occupying Jerusalem.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
This is how I've always seen it: I consider myself a Terran (because Earthling sounds silly). I am an American. I am a Californian. I am a Norcali. I am a Sacramentan. I am a midtowner (my part of Sacramento.) If you had to ask which one of those I am, or which one I gave my ultimate loyalties or identity to, I'm not sure if I could really narrow it down. I assume that other people have the same list of identities and allegiences. Just because they were also Ottomans or Arabs or Syrians doesn't mean they weren't also Palestinians just as me being an American doesn't stop me from being a Sacramentan.

Yes but you were attirbuting that "Palestinian identity" to the Palestinian Arabs that are now known as the "Palestinians".
Back then the Palestinian Jews (modern Israelis), Palestinian Arabs and the rest of the citizens of the occupied non-sovereign land known as "Palestine" were all equal before the law, and have all shared the same identity, so there is no logic behind your words here.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
According to Israel.
Absolutely wrong, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel according to the facts, it is a fact that it is not recognized as so but it is also a fact that it is so.
If the entire world won't recognize Washington D.C. as the capital of the United States of America, it wouldn't change the fact that it is the capital of the USA.
In the eyes of what 'law'? Israeli law or international law?
As far as international law is concerned, there is nothing that permits the designation of another sovereign state's capital by foreign states.
As I said, there is no law that allows the international community to designate another state's capital. As Wikipedia, the CIA world factbook, and the rest of the reliable sources would tell you, Jerusalem is Israel's capital.
That is disingenuous. Both the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia state that Jerusalem's is proclaimed as Israel's capital by Israel and that this proclaimation is disputed by the rest of the world. And it's all that matters to you. To the rest of the world, Jerusalem's status is disputed.
Both the CIA world factbook and Wikipedia write "Jerusalem" under Israel's capital.
Wow... 43 whole years! That is such a long time compared to two milleniums of history in Jerusalem! :roll:
If you're going milleniums back then I can just cite the Israeli kingdoms and their control of the city - it doesn't benefit you.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,115
Reaction score
6,375
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Tel Aviv can serve as the capital of Israel as far as I am concerned (it basically is right now).

What we need is for Israel to finally recognize that it is occupying Jerusalem.

What we need is for the world to recognize Israel's sovereignity and control over Jerusalem and recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, as it is right now.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,138
Reaction score
21,536
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
why not have Jerusalem as the capital of both, and have it governed by a neutral third party.
 
Top Bottom