Oliver Stone Slammed by US Media

[washunut]

By "Jewish policies" I meant Jewish lobbies that urge U.S. support of Israel and the policies that advance that. I said to distinguish specific Israeli policies. Nothing racist or anti-semitic was meant by that.

You do understand that non-Jews support Israel as well.

 

[samsmart]

But you said criticism of Israeli policy. Now you are changing the bar in a most dishonest fashion.

At first I didn't understand what you meant by this. Now I believe I do.

Oliver Stone was specifically being critical of the Jewish lobby here in America. Such criticism is getting him slammed as an anti-semite. My post was to say that such criticism of the U.S. Jewish lobby is not innately anti-semitic. I included criticism of Israeli policies is not innately anti-semitic either. This is because when Israel's policies get criticism, it is usually disregarded as anti-semitism. That specific post was to point out that it's all too easy for criticism against the U.S. Jewish lobby and the Jewish state of Israel as anti-semitic, which is disingenuous.

If you'd rather talk specifically about the U.S. Jewish lobby, and not Israel, I have no problem with that.

 

[samsmart]

You do understand that non-Jews support Israel as well.

Absolutely. And I have no problem with Israel existing as a state either. Nor do I have a problem with the United States continuing to be an ally of the state of Israel. Nor for a Jewish lobby to influence U.S. foreign policy.

What I object to is criticisms against those things to be automatically labeled as anti-semitic. Are some criticisms against those things anti-semitic? Abso****inglutely. Is every criticism against those things anti-semitic? No. Is Oliver Stone's criticisms against those things anti-semitic? No, I don't think so.

 

[Grim17]

So you're saying it's okay to be racist, as long as there's a reason for it.

Not at all... but in that case, you need to cut the woman some slack. That dislike for Germans is directly linked to what the German people did to her people based on their religion. Such racism being passed down from generation to generation is what I have a problem with. Today's Jewish people have no reason to vilify people of German descent, because neither of them had anything to do with what took place in WWII. Here in America, a white person that harbors hatred toward black people, and a black person harboring hatred toward white people, are examples of unjustified hatred and unacceptable racism.

All racism is wrong, but that doesn't mean all racism is baseless.

Okay. How?

Are you kidding?

His words are not said to point out significant and pertinent facts, they are said as a form of condemnation and criticism toward Jewish people, and to downplay what took place in WWII. He is blaming Jews in the media for publishing the words he said against the Jewish people, instead of taking responsibility for saying them himself. He ridiculously blames Israel for screwing up American's foreign policy, like some powerful, secret Jew society is the only reason America supports Israel. Then to top it off, he has the gall to compare Russia's casualties to Jewish casualties during WWII. How do you compare the number of enemies Germany killed in a war between nations, and the number of innocent people Germany executed based on their religious beliefs? The Jewish people did not declare war on Germany, yet they were systematically executed in the name of racial purity.

Give me a break.

Saying that Palestinians support Hamas for firing rockets into Israel is like saying Americans supported Republicans for bombing Muslims. It is an extreme oversimplification of the political sciences involved and completely dismissive of any Palestinian opposition to Hamas.

Talk about BS... you said a mouth full there

Republicans didn't bomb Muslims, Americans bombed terrorists. First, went to war with bi-partisan support, which means we went to war as a nation, not a political party. Second, we target and bomb terrorists who happen to be Muslim. We don't target Muslims because we think they are all terrorists.

I can see fault with both the Israeli's as well as with the Palestinians. Nobody is perfect. What I don't understand, is how anyone can side with the ones who target and kill innocent civilians, and condemn the ones who don't? How can anyone side with the party that promotes the extermination of every Jew on the face of the earth, and condemn the side promotes no such religious agenda? How can a person side with the party that has been responsible breaching every single cease fire ever brokered? How can anyone side with the party that has violated every single peace treaty ever agreed to?

Terrorism is terrorism, and there is no justification for targeting and killing innocent people as a strategy for war. The motives and beliefs of any intelligent person that sides with such a strategy, must come into question.

Not that you care, but the ball is now, and has been for years, in the Palestinians court. They not only have to make a commitment to peace with Israel, they have to enforce it for once.

I'm against the Palestinians firing rockets into Israel. Just as I am against the Israeli government expanding into Palestinian territory with their settlements.

Here's a question that gets the left every time....

What do you think is the most important thing that needs to happen... That the killing of innocent people needs to stop, or the building of settlements needs to stop?

The roadmap for peace made it very clear, that the targeting and killing of innocent Israeli's must come to a stop first, before anything else can take place. A position that I agree with 100%

There are assholes on both sides at the top that make life hell for both sides at the bottom. That has always been my policy with regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

However, saying that there are assholes at the top of the Israeli government does not make one anti-semitic.

It does if you lay the blame for the continuing conflict on their shoulders, rather than calling for the Palestinians to stop the violence.

 

[samsmart]

Not at all... but in that case, you need to cut the woman some slack. That dislike for Germans is directly linked to what the German people did to her people based on their religion. Such racism being passed down from generation to generation is what I have a problem with. Today's Jewish people have no reason to vilify people of German descent, because neither of them had anything to do with what took place in WWII. Here in America, a white person that harbors hatred toward black people, and a black person harboring hatred toward white people, are examples of unjustified hatred and unacceptable racism.

All racism is wrong, but that doesn't mean all racism is baseless.

Okay. Fine. And that Jewish woman was racist.

Are you kidding?

His words are not said to point out significant and pertinent facts, they are said as a form of condemnation and criticism toward Jewish people, and to downplay what took place in WWII. He is blaming Jews in the media for publishing the words he said against the Jewish people, instead of taking responsibility for saying them himself. He ridiculously blames Israel for screwing up American's foreign policy, like some powerful, secret Jew society is the only reason America supports Israel. Then to top it off, he has the gall to compare Russia's casualties to Jewish casualties during WWII. How do you compare the number of enemies Germany killed in a war between nations, and the number of innocent people Germany executed based on their religious beliefs? The Jewish people did not declare war on Germany, yet they were systematically executed in the name of racial purity.

Give me a break.

So a Jew's life is worth more than a Russian's life? Or a gypsy's life? Or a homosexual's life? Gypsies didn't have a nation to call their own either. The homosexuals in Germany didn't declare war on anybody. Pointing that out doesn't take away from the Jewish Holocaust either. Neither does it make it anti-semitic.

Talk about BS... you said a mouth full there

Republicans didn't bomb Muslims, Americans bombed terrorists. First, went to war with bi-partisan support, which means we went to war as a nation, not a political party. Second, we target and bomb terrorists who happen to be Muslim. We don't target Muslims because we think they are all terrorists.

I know that's BS. That's why I equated that to that comment. Because both are gross oversimplifications of the nuanced politics involved in those two separate groups.

I can see fault with both the Israeli's as well as with the Palestinians. Nobody is perfect. What I don't understand, is how anyone can side with the ones who target and kill innocent civilians, and condemn the ones who don't? How can anyone side with the party that promotes the extermination of every Jew on the face of the earth, and condemn the side promotes no such religious agenda? How can a person side with the party that has been responsible breaching every single cease fire ever brokered? How can anyone side with the party that has violated every single peace treaty ever agreed to?

Where in this thread did I say I unilaterally supported the Palestinians in all that they do without criticism? I haven't. Criticism of Israel is not idolization of Palestinians.

Terrorism is terrorism, and there is no justification for targeting and killing innocent people as a strategy for war. The motives and beliefs of any intelligent person that sides with such a strategy, must come into question.

Palestine Monitor - Israeli Troops Kill Palestinia

Not that you care, but the ball is now, and has been for years, in the Palestinians court. They not only have to make a commitment to peace with Israel, they have to enforce it for once. Here's a question that gets the left every time....

What do you think is the most important thing that needs to happen... That the killing of innocent people needs to stop, or the building of settlements needs to stop?

When you say "innocent people," do you mean only the Israeli ones? Or are you including the innocent Palestinian people who get killed as well? To answer you, I think the killing of both innocent Israelis and Palestinians need to stop and the buildings of settlements need to stop. That's not a dichotomy. It's not an issue of we can stop one or the other but not both. Both needs to stop.

The roadmap for peace made it very clear, that the targeting and killing of innocent Israeli's must come to a stop first, before anything else can take place. A position that I agree with 100%

No. The killing of all innocents need to be stop, no matter which side they are on.

It does if you lay the blame for the continuing conflict on their shoulders, rather than calling for the Palestinians to stop the violence.

I haven't laid the blame for continuing the conflict on any one side's shoulders. I think most of the blame goes to those who are in power in Israel and among the Palestinians. Because I think both are being manipulated by conservative religious interests on each side to maintain the conflict. By maintaining the conflict between those two peoples, both people are distracted by those among them who abuse them for profit and power.

 

[Grim17]

Nice source you used there. I'm sure they are a very credible... lol

Here's what's on their "about" page:

The Palestine Monitor was set up in December 2000, just a few months after the start of the second Intifada.

Palestinian writers, commentators and activists had quickly realized that though there was mass international media coverage of the Intifada itself, Palestinian narratives were largely missing from mainstream media reportage, and Palestinian voices were still rarely being heard in situ.

Yup... they are very believable... lmao

Israel does not target innocent civilians... The Palestinians do... End of story.

 

[Demon of Light]

I think that Stone's comments were less about saying how nice a guy Hitler really was and was more of a political comment on how the U.S. supports Israel unerringly even when it goes against U.S. interests and how a bloc of Jewish interests in the mainstream media promote that U.S. support of Israel.

I have spent some time looking into Hitler's life and I simply cannot help but see him as a person whose heart was in the right place, even though his head wasn't. The impression I have of Hitler is not one of a malevolent individual, though really I do not think anyone should be seen as malevolent.

I agree. One ofthe reasons antisemitism fourishes as it does is that those with a chip on their shoulder looking to blame somebody else find such a rich history or writings, and such a ready made formula for doing so. Their paranoia and resentment would be so much more obvious if they were blaming a conspiracy of aliens or mythical creatures for the world's ills, but the fact that antisemitism has become increasinigly fashionable makes it all that more attractive. Heck, everybody's blaming the Joos, right?

I think your perspective on the subject is distorted by your own personal bias. While it is obviously not the case for everyone, but for some people their prejudice is motivated by a very real issue. For a while I posted in the Opposing Views section of Stormfront and I found several people there had racist views motivated by some real wrong against them life. One case was where someone the individual knew was attacked by a black man. It is easy to see how someone might come to associate the individual's race with the act.

I read of instances in Germany back before Hitler came to power where an prospective ethnic German employee would be passed up for a Jewish one by the Jewish employer despite the German having better qualifications. While I do not know if these were common or isolated incidents it stands to reason anyone subjected to this treatment might come to think the behavior of that one Jew represents the behavior of all Jews.

A more sympathetic example for you might be the attitude of the African-American community towards whites. Having been victims of racial prejudice and abuse in the past there is a mentality among some, perhaps many, that is hostile to whites. It is at a point with some where even cases that obviously have no racial tone are seen as racist simply because of the races of the people involved.

and how are these canards about undue Jewish influence "criticism of Israeli policy" again?

It is not a canard if it is true.

If you actually knew anything about the history of antisemitism, which you so obviously don't, you would realize that the theme of Jews scheming for their own benefit by manipulating others is THE classic antisemitic canard. Antisemitism is all ABOUT portraying Jews as puppetmasters loyal only to themselves, plotting behind the scenes to turn events to their favor.

I know plenty about the history of antisemitism. However, just because a claim has often been used to demonize an entire people does not mean the claim is false. Does the fact that some murders or alleged murders of children have sparked antisemitic riots mean no Jew has ever murdered a child? Hell no. Just like there were black people who did rape white women. The fact many rapes were falsely blamed on black people does not mean it is never the case that a black person is to blame.

No doubt it is more comforting to think a claim used to justify hatred and bigotry has no basis in fact, but it simply isn't reality. People who are rich and powerful typically scheme for their own benefit and manipulate others. Individuals who share an ethnic identity typically help their people first as well. So saying rich and powerful Jews scheme for their own benefit and manipulate others, as well as seeking to help their people first, is not anti-Semitic but simply going with what is the most common trait of people in general.

AIPAC is one of those groups that really demonstrates the influence of the Jewish community in the U.S. One notable fact about AIPAC is that its executive committee consists of the members of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish American Organizations. That group includes basically the entire network of synagogues, communities, and Zionist or Israeli organizations in the United States.

Look at the groups that are in the Conference as well as how some of them came about and you may begin to see how one might find a lot of influence in the lobbying group. Also look at past leaders of AIPAC. The current head of the Conference was actually a very important long-time supporter of President Obama, meaning well before he ran for national office.

I'm not sure one can argue that WWI directly led to WWII.

Actually there are many events that probably would not have occurred had it not been for World War I. The Bolshevik Revolution and the rise of Fascism in Italy are both events with clear cause-and-effect connections to World War I. Those events, among others, set up this conflict between Fascism and Marxism that constituted the underlying cause of World War II. It even tapped into antisemitism given the large number of Jews prominently involved in the Bolshevik Revolution.

 

[samsmart]

Israel does not target innocent civilians... The Palestinians do... End of story.

Israeli troops killed Gaza children carrying white flag, witnesses say | McClatchy

MK calls for investigation into Israeli soldiers' abuse of Palestinian children

Israeli soldiers admit to deliberate killing of Gaza civilians - Times Online

The soldiers’ testimonies include accounts of an unarmed old woman being shot at a distance of 100 yards, a woman and her two children being killed after Israeli soldiers ordered them from their house into the line of fire of a sniper and soldiers clearing houses by shooting anyone they encountered on sight.

 

[Grim17]

Israeli troops killed Gaza children carrying white flag, witnesses say | McClatchy

MK calls for investigation into Israeli soldiers' abuse of Palestinian children

Israeli soldiers admit to deliberate killing of Gaza civilians - Times Online

It seems you are a bit confused... Those were the actions of soldiers acting of their own accord, and not based on the policies of the Israeli government or the Israeli military. Even though you might not want to admit it, there is a big difference between the actions of certain men, and the policies of their government. America doesn't target civilians either, but that doesn't stop some soldiers from taking it upon themselves to do just that.

The Palestinians on the other hand, have made it their policy to target and murder innocent Israeli civilians. Funny who some people will paint as "victims"... isn't it?

 

[samsmart]

It seems you are a bit confused... Those were the actions of soldiers acting of their own accord, and not based on the policies of the Israeli government or the Israeli military. Even though you might not want to admit it, there is a big difference between the actions of certain men, and the policies of their government. America doesn't target civilians either, but that doesn't stop some soldiers from taking it upon themselves to do just that.

The Palestinians on the other hand, have made it their policy to target and murder innocent Israeli civilians. Funny who some people will paint as "victims"... isn't it?

Okay. So when individual Israelis kill Palestinians, it's only because of a few bad apples, but when Palestinians soldiers kill Israelis, it's because all Palestinians support that, so no Palestinian is ever really a victim. I see.

 

[Gardener]

I have spent some time looking into Hitler's life and I simply cannot help but see him as a person whose heart was in the right place

THis certainly comes as no surprise and neither does your membership at Stormfront.

 

[Helvidius]

Those conditions caused Japan and Italy to start wars all over the world? While I agree that the economic conditions in Germany enabled Hitler to become dictator, I've always believed that the idea that WW1 led to WW2 is a bit of a stretch.

The Treaty of Versailles forced Germany to give up land to other countries, Poland being the largest beneficiary in the transfer. Germany invaded Poland and sent troops to the Rhineland which was a violation of the treaty. Britain had signed a pact with Poland so they declared war on Germany. I do believe that WWII was a result of the Treaty of Versailles.

 

[Grim17]

Okay. So when individual Israelis kill Palestinians, it's only because of a few bad apples, but when Palestinians soldiers kill Israelis, it's because all Palestinians support that, so no Palestinian is ever really a victim. I see.

Is it the policy of the Israeli government to target civilians?
A: No

Is it the policy of Hamas and Hezbola (P.A.) to target civilians?
A: Yes

Are the Palestinian people victims?
A: Yes, of the strife and violence that have resulted from the anti-peace policies of their ruling government and the violent aggression of their military.

 

[samsmart]

Is it the policy of the Israeli government to target civilians?
A: No

Is it the policy of Hamas and Hezbola (P.A.) to target civilians?
A: Yes

Are the Palestinian people victims?
A: Yes, of the strife and violence that have resulted from the anti-peace policies of their ruling government and the violent aggression of their military.

Well the incursions of the Israeli settlements on their land doesn't help, and when soldiers wearing Israeli uniforms shoot Palestinians, it's not easy for those Palestinians to know if it's because that guy is a bad apple or if they got orders from their government.

 

[Demon of Light]

THis certainly comes as no surprise and neither does your membership at Stormfront.

I must be crazy to have thought I could have a real discussion with you on this subject. Honestly, why not just plain make things up since you are clearly not interested in addressing what I actually said and more interested in what you wish I said?

 

[Gardener]

I must be crazy to have thought I could have a real discussion with you on this subject.

Hey -- if you want to expand on that Hitler praise of yours, or detail your thoughts as to how scheming and manipulation are "the most common traits" of Jews in general, you sure shouldn't let me stop you.

 

[Winston Smith]

Maybe... but I wouldn't call her that.

She likely lived during the German Holocaust and probably lost family, friends or both to Hitler's genocide... so I would say she had a measure of justification for her attitude. You don't know what that woman went through or the pain she suffered. Now if her grandchildren and their children have the same attitudes toward people of German descent today, then I would say labeling them "racist" would be justified.



True... as long as it isn't accompanied with support for Hamas. What makes criticism of Israeli policies "anti-Semitic", is when it's used as justification for the actions of the Palestinians and others.

For example, When a child teases a dog, and is told over and over again not to tease the dog because it will bite them, who's to blame if the child doesn't listen and gets bit? The child is to blame... not the dog. Yet with the recent flotilla incident, there are actually people out there who completely ignore the fact that the members of that flotilla made the conscience choice to "tease the dog" by first attempting to break through that blockade, and then choosing to fight the Israelis when they tried to stop them by boarding the ship.

That flotilla provoked the entire incident, yet look at how many people support and defend them? Anyone that condemns Israel for doing exactly what they were expected to do, and doesn't blame the flotilla for provoking that incident, is a classic example of "anti-semitism" in my view.

All civil disobedience is provocation in the sense that those who engage in it can expect a reaction from the authorities. By your reasoning, MLK, Gandhi, and Sophie Scholl were racists.

 

[Winston Smith]

I have spent some time looking into Hitler's life and I simply cannot help but see him as a person whose heart was in the right place, even though his head wasn't. The impression I have of Hitler is not one of a malevolent individual, though really I do not think anyone should be seen as malevolent.

I really have to disagree with you there. What makes you conclude that his heart was in the right place?

 

[Winston Smith]

But you said criticism of Israeli policy. Now you are changing the bar in a most dishonest fashion.

If you actually knew anything about the history of antisemitism, which you so obviously don't, you would realize that the theme of Jews scheming for their own benefit by manipulating others is THE classic antisemitic canard. Antisemitism is all ABOUT portraying Jews as puppetmasters loyal only to themselves, plotting behind the scenes to turn events to their favor.

That you would actually try this underhanded ruse of trying to claim that such portrayals are actually a "criticism of Israeli policy" is certainly predictable enough, but actual criticism of Israeli policy is quite a different matter than conjuring images of Jews as scheming and conniving.

And if you knew anything about the history of the United States, you would know that the sentiments of minority groups for or against various foreign countries have always been a contentious issue. England, France, and Germany have all been enemies and allies at various times and have all had their share of promoters and detractors as the circumstances changed from one generation to another. The phenomenon isn't limited to Jews and has little to do with anti-Semitism.

 

[Demon of Light]

I really have to disagree with you there. What makes you conclude that his heart was in the right place?

Well, what exactly do you think he did? Do you think he twirled his mustache and bragged about how evil he was? If you note the part right after that I said his head wasn't in the right place. My point was that I do not believe for a moment he went out to do evil, but that he went out to do good and in his distorted view that meant doing something that wasn't good at all.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

Well, what exactly do you think he did? Do you think he twirled his mustache and bragged about how evil he was? If you note the part right after that I said his head wasn't in the right place. My point was that I do not believe for a moment he went out to do evil, but that he went out to do good and in his distorted view that meant doing something that wasn't good at all.

I don't know enough about the real Hitler to agree/disagree with this, but I think you are right in general that even the most "evil" people are doing what they think is right.

Hence the problem with relativism, because Hitler was clearly "evil" for not stopping the violence perpatrated against Jews and the world. Whether WW1 pushed germany towards WW2 or not is irrelevant, a "good" leader would have worked to prevent war; not cause the largest war ever.

Was Hitler evil in his mind like a Jeffrey Dahmer? Maybe, maybe not. His actions certainly declare "evil".

 

[Winston Smith]

Well, what exactly do you think he did? Do you think he twirled his mustache and bragged about how evil he was? If you note the part right after that I said his head wasn't in the right place. My point was that I do not believe for a moment he went out to do evil, but that he went out to do good and in his distorted view that meant doing something that wasn't good at all.

I think evil people do exist, though not usually in the cartoonish form you describe. From what I've read of Hitler, he was privately sensitive about the "Final Solution" and would go so far as to slink away from conversations rather than try to defend it. I think he knew the difference betwen right and wrong. I'm sure he believed his actions were all in the best interest of "German" power, but putting power above justice and compassion is not the mark of someone whose heart is in the right place.

 

[Demon of Light]

I think evil people do exist, though not usually in the cartoonish form you describe. From what I've read of Hitler, he was privately sensitive about the "Final Solution" and would go so far as to slink away from conversations rather than try to defend it. I think he knew the difference betwen right and wrong. I'm sure he believed his actions were all in the best interest of "German" power, but putting power above justice and compassion is not the mark of someone whose heart is in the right place.

I think he truly felt Jews were somehow going to destroy Germany if they weren't destroyed and that it was therefore necessary. For him I do not believe that it was about power. Rather he truly believed his cause was just.