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OK, let’s get real about riots and hypocrisy

Fletch

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His speech is here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-stormed-capitol-hill/story?id=75110558

He used the word "peacefully" once and way before the end of his speech. He used "fight" about 29 times.

Folks keep repeating that one part with peacefully - it seems like many find that it isn't enough of a defense.

There's also the bit about the WH refusing to call up more troops the first time they were asked for - as the Capitol was being stormed with a battering ram, etc.
You will fit right in here. But you wont stand out. You will be just another leftist who cant be swayed by anything but emotion. How many marches do you think there have been on Washington? And how many times was the word 'fight' used in speeches at those events? You dont know and you dont care.
 

Gaius46

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The riot (not “mostly peaceful protests:) the nation has suffered through are horrifying and unacceptable, without doubt.
What is also unacceptable is the Democrat and mainstream media (sorry for the redundancy) sputtering, spitting, wide-eyed outrage over THIS incident after almost a year of tut-tut tolerance of far more deadly and destructive riots which wreaked far more distruction and death. Only difference is that THIS TIME they were near the frontline and it was their asses on the line and they were in actual danger.
This piece says it much better than I could and includes a few good links demonstrating the tolerance and support the Dems offered BLM and Antifa protestors
Equating the BLM riots with insurrection is one of the flat out stupidest things I’ve ever heard. If you equate violation of civil law with a (albeit ham handed) attempt to overthrow the government - and one arguably led by the President himself - you need to seriously rethink your assumptions.
 

Quag

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I dont care what they are buying. Its clear from the context of the quote. Trump went on to say that people should march on the capital peacefully and have their voices heard. Just like speakers of countless marches on Washington have done.
Yes it is clear from the context that your version is pure BS
Trump egged them on hoping they would get him the presidency
Your false equivalency is noted and in no way shape or form absolve Trump from his actions
 

Integrityrespec

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I dont care what they are buying. Its clear from the context of the quote. Trump went on to say that people should march on the capital peacefully and have their voices heard. Just like speakers of countless marches on Washington have done.
Too many Republicans are rino's and never Trumpers. They don't represent the voters and need to be gone. In two years responsible republicans need to remove those traitors to the voters.
 

Integrityrespec

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Let me know when the democrats show you the video of Trump inciting the riot! You will not because it doesn't exist. Remember the democrats like to say "words matter". Well not to them. Democrats have incited riots all summer and all during the Trump presidency.
 

Fletch

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Yes it is clear from the context that your version is pure BS
Trump egged them on hoping they would get him the presidency
Your false equivalency is noted and in no way shape or form absolve Trump from his actions
Thats a lie. Trump told them to go to the capital peacefully. There are no actions for which to absolve him.
 

Fletch

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Let me know when the democrats show you the video of Trump inciting the riot! You will not because it doesn't exist. Remember the democrats like to say "words matter". Well not to them. Democrats have incited riots all summer and all during the Trump presidency.
Trump clearly incited violence when he said this though:

"That sight is now burned into my eyes forever. And I hope the same is true for you — because we will not forget. We do not want to forget. We will use that vision to make sure that we fight harder, we fight tougher, and we fight more passionately than ever"

Oh wait, that was Elizabeth Warren in a speech before a Washington mob after Trump was elected.
 

rickc

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Thats a lie. Trump told them to go to the capital peacefully. There are no actions for which to absolve him.
Those right wing spin meisters have been hard at work. Trympers want to believe it so bad.

“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

“When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules. So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do, and I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.”
 

natman

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His speech is here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-stormed-capitol-hill/story?id=75110558

He used the word "peacefully" once and way before the end of his speech. He used "fight" about 29 times.

Folks keep repeating that one part with peacefully - it seems like many find that it isn't enough of a defense.
Obviously you were too lazy to actually read the speech, but just did a search for the word "fight", which does appear in the article 29 times, but most are NOT by Trump. Here's some of the uses taken in context:


But, you know, it used to be that [the press would] argue with me. I'd fight. So, I'd fight, they'd fight, I'd fight, they'd fight, bump, bump, you'd believe me, you'd believe them. Somebody comes out. You know, they had their point of view, I had my point of view. But, you'd have an argument.

You don't fight with them anymore unless it's a bad story. If they have a little bad story about me, they make it ten times worse and it's a major headline.

There's 6 right there, in the context of disagreeing with the press.

But our fight against the big donors, big media, big tech, and others is just getting started.

He's [Guliani] got guts. You know what? he's got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican Party, he's got guts he fights, he fights.

Unbelievable, what we have to go through. What we have to go through--and you have to get your people to fight. And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight.
(Talking about not voting for Republicans who don't support him)

I said something is wrong here, something is really wrong, can't have happened and we fight, we fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore.
(Talking about the need for greater election security)

It's quite clear that "fight" is used in terms of struggle, not physical violence. But if you think differently, then post a quote that clearly shows that Trump is advocating attacking Congress.
 

Somerville

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I dont care what they are buying. Its clear from the context of the quote. Trump went on to say that people should march on the capital peacefully and have their voices heard. Just like speakers of countless marches on Washington have done.
Trump had a few other words to say during the speech that is seen by many as incitement and encouragement for his supporters who marched to the Capitol on 6 Jan.

'We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore."

"You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can't let that happen."


'If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'
 

JerryW

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Obviously you were too lazy to actually read the speech, but just did a search for the word "fight", which does appear in the article 29 times, but most are NOT by Trump. Here's some of the uses taken in context:


But, you know, it used to be that [the press would] argue with me. I'd fight. So, I'd fight, they'd fight, I'd fight, they'd fight, bump, bump, you'd believe me, you'd believe them. Somebody comes out. You know, they had their point of view, I had my point of view. But, you'd have an argument.

You don't fight with them anymore unless it's a bad story. If they have a little bad story about me, they make it ten times worse and it's a major headline.

There's 6 right there, in the context of disagreeing with the press.

But our fight against the big donors, big media, big tech, and others is just getting started.

He's [Guliani] got guts. You know what? he's got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican Party, he's got guts he fights, he fights.

Unbelievable, what we have to go through. What we have to go through--and you have to get your people to fight. And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight.
(Talking about not voting for Republicans who don't support him)

I said something is wrong here, something is really wrong, can't have happened and we fight, we fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore. (Talking about the need for greater election security)

It's quite clear that "fight" is used in terms of struggle, not physical violence. But if you think differently, then post a quote that clearly shows that Trump is advocating attacking Congress.
I read the entire thing. My point was the foolishness of using his singular use of "peacefully" as proof he was against any violence.
(You like insulting people, it seems.)
 

natman

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I read the entire thing. My point was the foolishness of using his singular use of "peacefully" as proof he was against any violence.
(You like insulting people, it seems.)
Not an insult, a statement of fact. You said that Trump used the word "Fight" 29 times. That's not true and if you'd troubled to look you'd have seen that.

And his use of the word peacefully is pretty telling if you actually READ the text IN CONTEXT and see that every time he uses the word "fight" it's in a legitimate sense of struggle against the press and/or political opponents, not physical violence.
 

TheParser

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The riot (not “mostly peaceful protests:) the nation has suffered through are horrifying and unacceptable, without doubt.
What is also unacceptable is the Democrat and mainstream media (sorry for the redundancy) sputtering, spitting, wide-eyed outrage over THIS incident after almost a year of tut-tut tolerance of far more deadly and destructive riots which wreaked far more distruction and death. Only difference is that THIS TIME they were near the frontline and it was their asses on the line and they were in actual danger.
This piece says it much better than I could and includes a few good links demonstrating the tolerance and support the Dems offered BLM and Antifa protestors
No one (neither Dem nor Pub) is astonished by the Dems' acceptance of the riots and looting and vandalism of last Spring & Summer.

It is simply a gentlemen's agreement that no one should criticize anything that certain ladies & gentlemen do.

They are to be excused because they are victims of systemic you-know-what.

So people are expected to keep their mouth shut or they will be canceled.
 

JerryW

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Not an insult, a statement of fact. You said that Trump used the word "Fight" 29 times. That's not true and if you'd troubled to look you'd have seen that.
Trump didn't use "fight" several times in that speech? (Note I am not specifying it was the *word* fight.)
 

Fletch

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Trump had a few other words to say during the speech that is seen by many as incitement and encouragement for his supporters who marched to the Capitol on 6 Jan.

'We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore."

"You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can't let that happen."

'If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'
How about this?
"That sight is now burned into my eyes forever. And I hope the same is true for you — because we will not forget. We do not want to forget. We will use that vision to make sure that we fight harder, we fight tougher, and we fight more passionately than ever"
 

Binary_Digit

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How about this?
"That sight is now burned into my eyes forever. And I hope the same is true for you — because we will not forget. We do not want to forget. We will use that vision to make sure that we fight harder, we fight tougher, and we fight more passionately than ever"
Obviously you were too lazy to actually read the speech, but just did a search for the word "fight", which does appear in the article 29 times, but most are NOT by Trump. Here's some of the uses taken in context:


But, you know, it used to be that [the press would] argue with me. I'd fight. So, I'd fight, they'd fight, I'd fight, they'd fight, bump, bump, you'd believe me, you'd believe them. Somebody comes out. You know, they had their point of view, I had my point of view. But, you'd have an argument.

You don't fight with them anymore unless it's a bad story. If they have a little bad story about me, they make it ten times worse and it's a major headline.

There's 6 right there, in the context of disagreeing with the press.

But our fight against the big donors, big media, big tech, and others is just getting started.

He's [Guliani] got guts. You know what? he's got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican Party, he's got guts he fights, he fights.

Unbelievable, what we have to go through. What we have to go through--and you have to get your people to fight. And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight.
(Talking about not voting for Republicans who don't support him)

I said something is wrong here, something is really wrong, can't have happened and we fight, we fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore. (Talking about the need for greater election security)

It's quite clear that "fight" is used in terms of struggle, not physical violence. But if you think differently, then post a quote that clearly shows that Trump is advocating attacking Congress.
If context matters, which it does, then we shouldn't ignore the context in which that speech was given. He had just spent months telling the nation that dark and sinister forces were stealing democracy away from them. Months before that he said, "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by." Before that he said, "[White Nationalists are] very fine people." Before that he said, "Maybe the 2nd Amendment people can do something..." Any sleazy trial lawyer could make the same arguments you're making here and keep him out of jail, but in my judgment Trump knew exactly what his words could lead to and he was "delighted" when they did.
 

JerryW

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Hmmm, not all Dems think alike. I am thinking of the claim made by several Trump supporters here that Dems had no issue with with the rioting this summer and only had (have) issues with those riots by Trump supporters.

First, not all Dems speak for all other Dems.
Second, I will not review what transpired this summer.

The key distinctions I see see between this summer (and occupation of Wisconsin Capitol) is the invasion of January 6th was designed to stop a specific Constitutional process - & was made immediately after a series of speeches calling for that process to be stopped & that many making this attempt were armed & someone murdered a member of LE in the process.

& Further, the President refused to order additional peace keepers (National Guard) when first requested.
 

MrWonka

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after almost a year of tut-tut tolerance of far more deadly and destructive riots which wreaked far more distruction and death. Only difference is that THIS TIME
No, the difference is that this was an attempted coup that was trying to overthrow American Democracy and install Trump as a Dictator in the United States of America.

This is not about broken ****ing glass or damaged property.

This was not a peaceful protest that got a bit out of hand due to a few bad apples. This was a willful insurrection incited by a sitting president in an attempt to overturn the will of the American people.

Furthermore, multiple police departments have come forward looking for Right-wing agitators who instigated much of the violence at the BLM protests. There was no Left-wing presence at last Wednesday's coup attempt.

Furthermore, the police, which was the very people that BLM was protesting against showed up at these protests and in many cases used unnecessary and violent means to shut down otherwise peaceful protests which is
the very thing that escalated the incidents.

The only thing escalating or instigating last week's protestors was Donald Trump himself. A cry baby unwilling to admit that he had lost because he's scared he's going to prison.

These two situations are not even remotely comparable.
 

natman

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Trump didn't use "fight" several times in that speech? (Note I am not specifying it was the *word* fight.)
Yes, he did. And if you'd actually READ the speech, you'll see that:
a) while there are 29 usages of the word "fight" in the article, many, if not most, of them are from somebody else, not Trump and
b) in the times when Trump did use the word "fight", it was in the context of debating with the press, voting against political opponents, or some other legitimate and legal meaning.

To make it easier, I quoted most of them. So the challenge to you STILL remains - quote where Trump EVER mentioned physical violence of any kind.

Trump explicitly told them to go to the Capitol and peacefully protest, which is what 99.9% of the hundreds of thousands protesters did.
 

Logophile

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Yes, the rioting over the summer was unacceptable and they should be arrested no matter whose side they are on. But the problem is your side automatically looks at BLM and thinks rioter/looter/Marxist. You fail to acknowledge the movement represents victims of centuries of racist oppression. Do you realize over the course of the Civil Rights Movement there were hundreds riots? But we don't focus on those, anymore, do we? We focus on the good brought on by the movement and understand in hindsight the riots were horrible and unfortunate, but expected in an unjust society. History does not exist in a bubble. The past impacts the present and this country still has a lot of wrongs to make up for. As for the MAGA side, yes they are victims, too... but they are not victims of centuries of oppression. They are victims of toxic alt-right propaganda. Have you seen the videos of these people attacking the press and bashing through doors to get to the legislators to do only God knows what? Many have lived fairly comfortable lives compared to America's minorities. But their minds are poisoned and filled with hate and rage. Their violent attacks on the press, police, and politicians were not the symptom of oppression. They are the symptoms of lies.
Oprah Winfrey started her career waaaaay back, then launched a television show that became an American staple in 1986 and continued until recently. As an entrepreneur, she - I think - still produces a magazine, albeit I haven't checked. Winfrey is a billionaire. She came from tough beginnings. Is she some kind of aberration?? Should most black men and women not aspire to accomplish what she has because of ongoing oppression?? Was her audience predominately black?? The answer is no. Do you know what the Obamas net worth is?? Obama didn't get voted in by fourteen percent of the population which is black. He was voted in by a huge swath of whites for two terms. Should I start enumerating all the black heads of prominent corporations?? Racism is a meme. It's nearly nonexistent except in very minor numbers, but that's true globally. What DOES exist is income disparity, and it affects all races and creeds, and that is something that can be addressed more seriously than it has, but not much more seriously. All poorer communities -regardless of color or religion -need to take responsibility and should take advantage of the help America offers in the way of scholarships, child care, adequate food and social programs. That help is there. It's been there for a long time. Thanks!!
 

Bullseye

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No, the difference is that this was an attempted coup that was trying to overthrow American Democracy and install Trump as a Dictator in the United States of America.

This is not about broken ****ing glass or damaged property.

This was not a peaceful protest that got a bit out of hand due to a few bad apples. This was a willful insurrection incited by a sitting president in an attempt to overturn the will of the American people.

Furthermore, multiple police departments have come forward looking for Right-wing agitators who instigated much of the violence at the BLM protests. There was no Left-wing presence at last Wednesday's coup attempt.

Furthermore, the police, which was the very people that BLM was protesting against showed up at these protests and in many cases used unnecessary and violent means to shut down otherwise peaceful protests which is
the very thing that escalated the incidents.

The only thing escalating or instigating last week's protestors was Donald Trump himself. A cry baby unwilling to admit that he had lost because he's scared he's going to prison.

These two situations are not even remotely comparable.
Total nonsense - pure partisan poppycock. “got a bit out of hand”? You recite your mega-cult mantras well.
\
 

EMNofSeattle

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...because a country’s leader inciting a mob to storm the seat of government, while that government is deciding who will be that leader, is the same as street protests organized by citizens.


What a load of shit!
It is in fact worse to engage in street protests that destroy small businesses. The government can afford to fix the damage.
 
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