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Ok... change my mind. It would be a relief.

I don't have a personal hatred of gays or homosexuality.


I have a belief that the practice of it is sinful, because the Bible says so in many different scriptures.


I've heard people try to explain why those scriptures don't really mean what they say, or don't apply to modern homosexual relationships.


I've yet to hear a sufficiently compelling argument to change my mind.... but I'm going to admit to you that if I did, it would be a RELIEF. I could say "yay gay" along with everyone else and stop drawing all the hate that flies in when I point out what the Bible says about it.


So, here's a thread for it.... lay it out. Give me a compelling dissertation on why I should disregard what the Bible, OT and NT, says about homosexual activity being a sin.

Now here's the catch.... it has to be Biblical, and theologically sound. This is about BIBLICAL truth and is a THEOLOGICAL question. Secular arguments will be disregarded. Psychology is not relevant. Biology is not relevant. Politics is not relevant.

It has to be based in Scripture and theologically sound. For instance, if someone asks me why I don't obey the OT prohibition on eating pig or shellfish, I can point to Acts 10 and Acts 15 and say "that's why; as a modern Gentile Christian I am not subject to most OT law, because God and the authority of the Apostles collectively says so."

Scriptural and theologically sound; have at it.


I'll be genuinely interested if anyone can come up with such an assertion, that will withstand even the slightest scrutiny. If you don't know the Bible quite well, I'd recommend you not even try: this is the big leagues, if you don't know what you're talking about it will be quickly pointed out.




Bear in mind this is the Religious Discussion Forum, and the rules regarding respectful discussion and no religion-bashing apply.

You are interpreting the bible correctly. Anyone that disagrees with you is only trying to change the book in order to make it agree with todays standards. They find it hard to believe in a book that is so outdated, so they try to interpret it in a fancy way.
 
You are interpreting the bible correctly. Anyone that disagrees with you is only trying to change the book in order to make it agree with todays standards. They find it hard to believe in a book that is so outdated, so they try to interpret it in a fancy way.

No, that's not accurate. The Bible... the OT has been misinterpreted, mistranslated, and passages have been taken out of context for centuries. It was done so in order to fit in with the standards and beliefs of times past. We have added knowledge, today, so we can accurately apply the correct interpretations, translations, and recognize the context in which the passages refer.
 
No, that's not accurate. The Bible... the OT has been misinterpreted, mistranslated, and passages have been taken out of context for centuries. It was done so in order to fit in with the standards and beliefs of times past. We have added knowledge, today, so we can accurately apply the correct interpretations, translations, and recognize the context in which the passages refer.

Disagree. You can say that it has been "misinterpreted", but unless you can give another interpretation that goes against what it clearly says, then it really doesn't cut it.


People will continue to disregard the parts of the bible they know are silly and follow what they want. In 50 years Christians will still be preaching about the infallibility of the scriptures while simultaneously arguing that the Bible says nothing of homosexuals, or that those were the old laws and god no longer considers being gay a sin or some other excuse.
 
Disagree. You can say that it has been "misinterpreted", but unless you can give another interpretation that goes against what it clearly says, then it really doesn't cut it.

I've done that. In this thread no less.

People will continue to disregard the parts of the bible they know are silly and follow what they want. In 50 years Christians will still be preaching about the infallibility of the scriptures while simultaneously arguing that the Bible says nothing of homosexuals, or that those were the old laws and god no longer considers being gay a sin or some other excuse.

The bible will continue to be re-examined and understood for the context in which it was written. This is the whole point and the problem with using single passages as opposed to understanding where those passages are and in what context they mean.
 
Yes, some have argued that.

However, Jesus is not recorded as covering exhaustively all sins in his sermons and talks. For instance, he doesn't specifically mention pedophilia.... but that doesn't mean he's good with it. :)
You're making the argument that the absence of a clarification by Jesus is equivalent to an endorsement of your view on the matter. To me this simply suggests it's not a pressing matter to anyone except for a couple early church leaders, and to the priestly class that included a few lines in the much older Judaic law books. Jesus may've disliked it, but apparently not greatly. Jesus may've been okay with it, but apparently it wasn't a significant campaign talking point. In terms of direct quotes attributed, it's basically a non-subject, contrary to our Victorian-inspired modern view.
 
2. Well, yes and no. Man's fundamental nature is sinful, and that sin-nature separates him God; Jesus is the bridge by which Man receives Grace. In an absence of Grace, all sin is damnation yes; in the presence of Grace, almost all sin is forgivable. However, scripture says we are not made to sin, but for righteousness, and it is strongly implied that those who are truly under Grace will not continue in an ongoing state of continual sin forever without coming to repentance (change)... if they carry on long without repentance, it is commonly held as a sign that their "state of Grace" (salvation) may be called into question. Romans 6, 1 Corinthians 6, Matthew 18.

This calls into question whether a person can continue living as a practicing homosexual all their life, and be in a state of Grace (salvation).

We will differ in faith on item number 2. I believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine. Can we agree that from God's perspective, all sins are equal and the wages of all sin is eternal death? Furthering that, can we agree that in every mention of homosexuality in the new testament comes in the middle of a list of other sins?

I apologize for the delay. This may take a while.
 
Geeze Rev, I expected better.


Acts 10, Acts 15. Gentile Christians are not subject to OT laws aside from a few specific things. This is BASIC theology, AND I mentioned this one in my OP... come on.




I told you this wasn't amateur night. :)




Leviticus is the most often used passage to rationalize anti-gay sentiments.



I've also noticed in some of your replies I see things like "it was the cultural norm back then," or "it was a metaphor"... etc.


btw what particular passages in the NT are you referring to?



Here are again some other things in the NT, according to it one should avoid:


But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. -acts 15:20

pollutions of idols refers to foods cooked by those with "false idols", there goes ones chicken chow mein!

Note ALL "fornication" is as, if not more prevelantly spoken out against in the NT than homosexuality. therefore, why would any unmmarried sex not be looked at with the same Ire as homosexuality?

Can't eat meat that was strangled.

Can't eat blood.


Mark 10:11-12New International Version (NIV)

11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”


Why isn't this followed as "Religiously" as the "no gay people" parts?




My point here is not to bash anyones beliefs. The bible is full of contradictions and that's a good thing, makes one think if it's looked at more metaphorically than literally. Because if you look at it as tight and literally on homosexuality, can you really make exceptions for these other things?
 
Leviticus is the most often used passage to rationalize anti-gay sentiments.



I've also noticed in some of your replies I see things like "it was the cultural norm back then," or "it was a metaphor"... etc.


btw what particular passages in the NT are you referring to?



Here are again some other things in the NT, according to it one should avoid:


But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. -acts 15:20

pollutions of idols refers to foods cooked by those with "false idols", there goes ones chicken chow mein!

Note ALL "fornication" is as, if not more prevelantly spoken out against in the NT than homosexuality. therefore, why would any unmmarried sex not be looked at with the same Ire as homosexuality?

Can't eat meat that was strangled.

Can't eat blood.


Mark 10:11-12New International Version (NIV)

11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”


Why isn't this followed as "Religiously" as the "no gay people" parts?




My point here is not to bash anyones beliefs. The bible is full of contradictions and that's a good thing, makes one think if it's looked at more metaphorically than literally. Because if you look at it as tight and literally on homosexuality, can you really make exceptions for these other things?



I don't make exceptions.


Sex outside of marriage is a sin.
I don't eat blood, meat that was strangled, or meat from an animal that was sacrificed to a false idol (to my knowledge).
I don't believe in divorce except for cause of fornication (matthew) or abandonment (paul), at least not in terms of being free to remarry for any other cause.

Many churches hold to the same standards.


And it isn't just Leviticus, or I'd be ready to agree with the majority.... plenty of scripture in the NT also.
 
I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to reply. I am reading and considering what has been said, which may take a while. I will try to respond to everyone in due course when I've had time to consider what you had to say; please be patient, this may take a while.
 
You're making the argument that the absence of a clarification by Jesus is equivalent to an endorsement of your view on the matter. To me this simply suggests it's not a pressing matter to anyone except for a couple early church leaders, and to the priestly class that included a few lines in the much older Judaic law books. Jesus may've disliked it, but apparently not greatly. Jesus may've been okay with it, but apparently it wasn't a significant campaign talking point. In terms of direct quotes attributed, it's basically a non-subject, contrary to our Victorian-inspired modern view.


To be more precise, it isn't MY view on the matter that is in question, but NT verses mainly attributable to Paul and Timothy. In the absence of contrary or contradictory views expressed by a "higher priority scripture" there is no reason not to assume what Pauline scripture says on the matter should stand as is.

One person has suggested a possible contradiction drawn from the words of Jesus himself; I am currently investigating this claim. Will get back to y'all on that...
 
Jesus never married, did he? Wonder why............
 
I'd make just one comment in this regard. I'm not a religious person, at this point in my life, but I do remember a passage of scripture that has guided my adult life pretty much - to paraphrase "judge not, lest ye be judged too". That pretty much sets it up for me. If there is a God, he/she is the one who judges the actions of his children - his children don't get that privilege/responsibility. Therefore, for me, I'll concentrate on living my life in a Christian manner as best I can and leave others to live their lives in the way they feel is right for them. It's the Christian thing to do.

Have you ever really studied the issue of 'judging'?

Here's some things you may have missed:

The Bible – Is it Wrong to Judge? « The Righter Report
 
Goshin... look at what you wrote. You identified that many of the things that were written in the bible no longer apply because CULTURE has changed... slavery, dress, etc... Culture has changed and homosexuality is now known to not be dangerous, a dysfunction, or any different than heterosexuality from a relationship standpoint, tell me why it is OK to discount slavery and dress in the bible as no longer culturally relevant, but NOT to discount homosexuality in the same way?

You YOURSELF already made that leap when you dismissed what the bible said about slavery and dress code issues when you stated that culture has changed. Culture has changed in regards to how we view homosexuality through lots of scientific evidence and information. Why is it OK to dismiss the bible about slavery because it's no longer culturally relevant, but to NOT do the same thing for homosexuality when it is also no longer culturally relevant? Do you see how you are contradicting yourself?




Ok... point taken. Gonna have to think about this... may take a while.
 
Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy - (to Goshin)
Why is it OK to dismiss the bible about slavery because it's no longer culturally relevant, but to NOT do the same thing for homosexuality when it is also no longer culturally relevant? Do you see how you are contradicting yourself?

Slavery in the Bible was either

1. Voluntary
2. Punishment for sin against wicked individuals or nations
3. A sin committed by Jews and/or others.

Apart from that, what part of "Love your neighbor as yourself" do you think justifies enslaving your neighbor?
 
The MORAL LAW has never passed away from Old Testament times.

Adultery, thievery, idolatry, murder, and gay sex relations, etc., were sins then (in both the Old and New Testaments) and they're still sins today.
 
You already know the scriptural explination.
You now want scripture that.days 'nevermind' ?
Sorry but its just not there.
Some point out that Christ completes the law and thats true but note that whem he was forgiving sins in person he would require repentance and send them off saying sin no more.
Do you find that homosexuals consider it a.sin.and repent ?
Do you feel that they intend to stop ?
 
If you don't know the Bible quite well, I'd recommend you not even try: this is the big leagues

This is not the big leagues. This is the religion section of a political forum frequented primarily by people with absolutely no training in theology whatsoever. This is a place where a debate on the merits of Wesleyan theology over Reformed theology is likely to be met with blank stares and where most people wouldn't even be able to tell you who Barth was.

That's not to say that opinions here don't matter. I don't think a theology degree is necessary to have an intelligent and informed opinion. But I think if you are looking for the big leagues, you came to the wrong place. If you want the big leagues, why not read what actual experts have to say instead of relying on debating amateurs on an internet forum? Read Francois Bovon's work (or Rob Bell's if you want a more popular approach) to get an idea of some alternative views on how the bible should be approached which render the question of "did the biblical writers support it?" moot. Read the work of Daniel Helminiak, Jack Rogers, George Hunsinger, Marcus Borg, and Reinhold Niebuhr to see some educated views on biblical homosexuality. If you must debate on an internet forum, why not go to one where people are well informed on the issue, instead of this one? Maybe try one of the gay Christian forums.
 
You don't have to.

Here, Goshin, is something I think is most interesting. Speaking of marriage:

"But He said to them, 'Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.'" (Matthew 19:11-12)

Before you head-desk yourself into oblivion, let me tell you the history of "eunuch."

The Greek eunouchos was translated into the English "eunuch," but as the passage itself eludes to, our understanding of "eunuch" is not what this passage refers to. In modern English, we take "eunuch" as an artificial physical state in which the testicles of a man are cut off -- castration.

But the Bible lists "natural" eunuchs, and if we are taking this to mean "male born without testicles," or testicular agenesis (and already, that would take us totally outside the modern understanding of the word), this so incredibly rare that there is unlikely to be even one out of tens of millions, and there is no good reason for them to be specifically listed. It also lists those made so at their own hand, but if this is referencing celibacy, what is the necessity of literally cutting of the testicles? Most ascetics didn't do this, and there is no ritual for doing so in Christianity. Also, the Bible uses different words in reference specifically to castration.

The context clue, it turns out, is in the original meaning of "eunuch," which could refer to castrated men, but also refers to a chamber servant who is trusted with women of harems, or a man with no desire to marry. Some were "eunuchs" by way of an aversion to sex with women.

A eunuch did not need to be missing their testicles. They may be fully intact, and even sexually capable. Their only universal characteristic is they were not married, and they were generally considered safe to be around women.

The meaning of the original eunouchos had even less to do with castration, translating simply to "trusted ones," and in some cases even seemed to imply homosexuality and asexuality. This word was usually used to refer to either a trusted official and/or men without sexual interest in women who could therefore be trusted around them. Actual castration was seldom implied.

The passage seems to be speaking of the lack of desire for relations with women -- union, or marriage -- and not necessarily physical castration. It lists many different reasons for this, including a side-effect of castration, a commitment to God, or even... natural inclination.

This cannot necessarily be taken as a permissiveness of gay marriage, but it can potentially be taken as a permissiveness of those who are either asexual or homosexual.

The permissiveness stated by Jesus in Matthew stands in line with the general tendency for Paul to be more severe and damning in its gender and sexual-based condemnations than Jesus himself ever was.

There is good reason to believe, for both linguistic reasons and his general stances compared to Paul, that Jesus was referring to a class of people that included homosexuals, when he referred to "eunuchs" who do not receive marriage.

Even if you don't take this as definite -- and admittedly it is slightly vague -- we do know Paul had a very different view of many types of sin, including sexual, than did Jesus, and that by itself warrants consideration of how seriously to take Paul. Paul was often not in line with the teachings of Jesus, throwing strict tenants of Hellenistic Judaism into the mix at will (as you stated, things you have no mandate to follow). Even Paul's idea of what brings salvation is completely divorced from Jesus' teachings.

However, it does seem to me, based on historical definitions, that homosexuality was sometimes included under the umbrella of eunouchos. It does not specifically mean celibacy, and it does not specifically mean castration. It only means either an official, or a man who is safe to have around women, sometimes due to disinterest in sex with women.

Homosexuals would fit this definition, and there seems to be a quiet recognition of that in the original word.


Well, I thought you might be on to something there. I did some research into Matthew 19 to be sure I remembered and understood it correctly.


From Thayer's Lexicon:

eunouchos


I.a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain

A.in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the

superintendent of the women's apartment or harem, an office held by

eunuchs


B.an emasculated man, a eunuch

i.eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by

the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in Ac. 8:27-39.

C.one naturally incapacitated

i.for marriage


ii.begetting children



D.one who voluntarily abstains from marriage


Yet it is widely considered that this state means the person is Celibate, and abstains from sex entirely. The Apostle Paul was noted as one such person, and he said in 1 Corinthians 7:7-9

For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


This implies the condition is one of celibacy, which would seem to exclude practicing homosexuals from eunounchos.




Then there is the matter of the first part of Matthew 19, vs 5-7, where Jesus defines marriage as between one man and one woman:


And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,


And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Fornication (or in the Greek, Porneia), refers to "sexual immorality" and apparently covers a lot of ground... but sex outside of marriage is generally considered fornication, and a sin.


If marriage is between a man and a woman, and sex outside of marriage is a sin, how can a homosexual have sex without it being a sin?


It seems like this line of inquiry comes to a dead end here, unless you have further thoughts on the matter I haven't yet considered.
 
This is not the big leagues. This is the religion section of a political forum frequented primarily by people with absolutely no training in theology whatsoever. This is a place where a debate on the merits of Wesleyan theology over Reformed theology is likely to be met with blank stares and where most people wouldn't even be able to tell you who Barth was.

That's not to say that opinions here don't matter. I don't think a theology degree is necessary to have an intelligent and informed opinion. But I think if you are looking for the big leagues, you came to the wrong place. If you want the big leagues, why not read what actual experts have to say instead of relying on debating amateurs on an internet forum? Read Francois Bovon's work (or Rob Bell's if you want a more popular approach) to get an idea of some alternative views on how the bible should be approached which render the question of "did the biblical writers support it?" moot. Read the work of Daniel Helminiak, Jack Rogers, George Hunsinger, Marcus Borg, and Reinhold Niebuhr to see some educated views on biblical homosexuality. If you must debate on an internet forum, why not go to one where people are well informed on the issue, instead of this one? Maybe try one of the gay Christian forums.

Trying to find the truth about homosexual sin in a "Gay" Christian forum, or from liberal theologians, would be like trying to find the truth about the resurrection of Jesus in an Orthodox Jewish synagogue.
 
This is not the big leagues. This is the religion section of a political forum frequented primarily by people with absolutely no training in theology whatsoever. This is a place where a debate on the merits of Wesleyan theology over Reformed theology is likely to be met with blank stares and where most people wouldn't even be able to tell you who Barth was.

That's not to say that opinions here don't matter. I don't think a theology degree is necessary to have an intelligent and informed opinion. But I think if you are looking for the big leagues, you came to the wrong place. If you want the big leagues, why not read what actual experts have to say instead of relying on debating amateurs on an internet forum? Read Francois Bovon's work (or Rob Bell's if you want a more popular approach) to get an idea of some alternative views on how the bible should be approached which render the question of "did the biblical writers support it?" moot. Read the work of Daniel Helminiak, Jack Rogers, George Hunsinger, Marcus Borg, and Reinhold Niebuhr to see some educated views on biblical homosexuality. If you must debate on an internet forum, why not go to one where people are well informed on the issue, instead of this one? Maybe try one of the gay Christian forums.


I'm tempted to say something a bit rude like, "Ok if you're so smart, YOU fill us in on it, bub". :)

But I don't want to be rude. :)


Ok. Yes, this isn't the big leagues, it's the bush league. No, I doubt anybody here is an actual theologian. I've probably studied theology more than most laymen, and the Bible for five decades, but I am not even a D.D.

I will look into your suggested reading list as time permits.
 
You already know the scriptural explination.
You now want scripture that.days 'nevermind' ?
Sorry but its just not there.
Some point out that Christ completes the law and thats true but note that whem he was forgiving sins in person he would require repentance and send them off saying sin no more.
Do you find that homosexuals consider it a.sin.and repent ?
Do you feel that they intend to stop ?

Yes I do.
I'm asking if someone can show me one; I'm not really expecting it.
See above.
True.
No that doesn't seem to be the case; they want to continue in it.
See above.
 
Trying to find the truth about homosexual sin in a "Gay" Christian forum, or from liberal theologians, would be like trying to find the truth about the resurrection of Jesus in an Orthodox Jewish synagogue.

He didn't claim to be a blank slate looking to explore all the different perspectives in order to come to a conclusion about what is true. He claimed to be someone with an opinion that homosexuality goes against Christian teachings, but who is interested in hearing what the other side has to say. Reading the writings of those on the other side and engaging them in discussion are some of the best ways to do that.
 
To be more precise, it isn't MY view on the matter that is in question, but NT verses mainly attributable to Paul and Timothy. In the absence of contrary or contradictory views expressed by a "higher priority scripture" there is no reason not to assume what Pauline scripture says on the matter should stand as is.

One person has suggested a possible contradiction drawn from the words of Jesus himself; I am currently investigating this claim. Will get back to y'all on that...
It's asking a lot for Jesus to proactively prevent all people from giving their own interpretations of his unaddressed topics, especially the ones he never met, writing about him after his death; whether that's a canonical one from a saint, Westboro Baptist members, or users on a message board.

We're all just speculators, since he didn't openly address it.
Trying to find the truth about homosexual sin in a "Gay" Christian forum, or from liberal theologians, would be like trying to find the truth about the resurrection of Jesus in an Orthodox Jewish synagogue.
What makes your socially conservative slant inherently more viable than its liberal counterpart?
 
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