Officer in the Hague shoots axe wielding man in the chest, he is going to be prosecuted

[Manc Skipper]

We are talking about Europe here. It probably would have been best to have the axe guy kill a few people before anyone was sure he was a threat. I mean, the injured people might feel a little differently but they are only injured and don't count. Maybe the cops should be required to write a sternly worded letter or two before using an direct force...normal font, naturally. We don't want to provoke the guy by using bold face or capital letters.

Just when you think the criticism of Dutch police procedure is moronic, along comes this new sub-level!

 

[Goshin]

Our police is not nearly as militarized, things like Swatting someone is not really a thing. We also are lucky not to have problems like:

1. shoot first without a word because you are scared (or claim to be scared shit) if they go on someone without announcing themselves and shooting innocent people who happened to hold a phone or think they are being robbed and have a gun to protect themselves but end up being shot without warning. Sure this has to do with the loads of guns on the streets but shoot first ask questions later.
2. traffic stops with sovcits/moorish citizens, etc. arresting and signing for tickets is also not needed
3. hitting the wrong house
4. snitches who claim to have bought drugs somewhere

I understand the Netherlands is relatively permissive/tolerant regarding drugs. As a result, I doubt you have anything like the big-money motivated, violent gangs we have here.

N is also a rather small country with a population comparable to a mid-size US state, and not as ethnically or culturally diverse I think. I used that term "culturally balkanized" earlier, and I think it applies to the US. It's a significant factor... we have many sub-cultures that feel alienated from the majority, some of whom view law enforcement with a very jaundiced eye.

These things contribute to the differences between policing in the two countries, and should not be underestimated as a causal agent.

Which brings me back to my point that what works in one country probably won't work in the other.

 

[Peter King]

I understand the Netherlands is relatively permissive/tolerant regarding drugs. As a result, I doubt you have anything like the big-money motivated, violent gangs we have here.

That is rather a misconception, we are nowhere near as tolerant as many states in the US when it comes to the use of cannabis. We have organized crime a plenty. We are an entrance and export harbor for soft and hard drugs and a world wide producer and distributor of certain drugs. If there is one thing we have it is big money violent criminals.

N is also a rather small country with a population comparable to a mid-size US state, and not as ethnically or culturally diverse I think. I used that term "culturally balkanized" earlier, and I think it applies to the US. It's a significant factor... we have many sub-cultures that feel alienated from the majority, some of whom view law enforcement with a very jaundiced eye.

Not as ethnically diverse? I am not sure about that. We are almost New York state sized and when looking at population density, we have about the same population density as New Jersey but with about twice the population. About 25% of our population is non Dutch. In our large cities it is about as diverse as possible. In Amsterdam 56% has a foreign background. In Rotterdam it is 52%, the Hague has almost 56% people from foreign heritage. We have these issues too. But these issues are not as great with the police because we have way less police, we don't waste police hours in arresting traffic violators for example. Not even drunk drivers (they just get a driving ban for 4/8/12/24 or longer hours.

These things contribute to the differences between policing in the two countries, and should not be underestimated as a causal agent.

In theory I agree but the way US cities use jails, prisons, courts and tickets as a way to balance budgets for example creates a lot of dislike for the police and if you add to that the issue that police feel almost free from consequences and are way too often fat/out of shape tubs of lard (and don't get me wrong, I am morbidly obese) but I am not a police officer. A Dutch officer would never be allowed out on the street with such horrendous weights and lack of fitness.

Which brings me back to my point that what works in one country probably won't work in the other.

I am sure of that but the issue is that without changing your ways as the police you will never earn the trust of the public. Police should never be used to balance the budget, kinda of tax on the poor and the drivers for example. The power of the police unions have to be broken. These unions have way to much power over reforming the police, they have to be broken up or put out to pasture. Violent officers should also not be able to hop from police force to police force. Because as long as that happens the bad officers will continue to attack the public and will continue to cost cities in hundreds of thousands in lawsuits.

 

[Peter King]

US police training is different.

Not to be blunt, but police training in the US is just unacceptable when looking at the standard of officer they produce. And the fitness situation of those officers is regularly alarming.

 

[Goshin]

Not to be blunt, but police training in the US is just unacceptable when looking at the standard of officer they produce. And the fitness situation of those officers is regularly alarming.

Training requirements in the US are often far less extensive than required in many EU nations. And yet, recruiting people to LE is difficult as it is. If training/education requirements were higher many departments would have to pay more and have a smaller number of cops, which is often deemed unacceptable or politically "soft on crime".

In the police department itself, speaking from experience, there's a major attitude problem. A sense of group identity as distinct from the public, press, politicians and etc, the "thin blue line" between order and barbarism; a "nobody knows the trouble I seen" martyrdom and elitism, combined with military mindset and the result is things I was told as a cop:
Never criticize a fellow officers conduct if you were not on-scene, especially not outside the department. Never criticize a fellow officers' conduct outside the department PERIOD.
"You need to harden up," I was told once by an older cop, "you care too much. You're gonna burn out." (I did, but I'd rather care and burn out that become cold and indifferent to human suffering).

There was also a standing joke, during yearly PT (physical testing) that we never saw some of the hugely fat Sgt's and LTs out there running the course.... it was understood their paperwork was falsified.

I had to rewrite a lot of incident reports that my Sgt or LT found unacceptably honest.

These are some of the reasons police reform is an uphill battle in the US.

 

[holbritter]

Nonsense, watch the video, nothing like that was happening or going to happen.

Just because it is not done in the US does not make our police "bad police".

No, I was pointing out there was a warning shot. You stated there was not. I was also being sarcastic. I don't think they were bad at all.

 

[code1211]

Except that is nonsense, that might be what US officers are told/are taught. Japanese officers, Dutch officers, English officers, many EU police officers do not see not killing a dangerous person (if there is not a need to) as a commitment to die.

That is another point of view.

I recently saw images of a number of victims on the Nightly News videoed in Ukraine with hands tied behind their backs and bullet holes in the backs of their heads.

The lethal threat seemed to have been real for these folks.

Were they mistaken?

 

[Peter King]

That is another point of view.

I recently saw images of a number of victims on the Nightly News videoed in Ukraine with hands tied behind their backs and bullet holes in the backs of their heads.

The lethal threat seemed to have been real for these folks.

Were they mistaken?

1. This is not about Ukraine, end of

2. no, it is not another point of view because the police is there to end dangerous situations but also use appropriate violence in situations because they are the police, not there to shoot to kill

 

[Manc Skipper]

That is another point of view.

I recently saw images of a number of victims on the Nightly News videoed in Ukraine with hands tied behind their backs and bullet holes in the backs of their heads.

The lethal threat seemed to have been real for these folks.

Were they mistaken?

You claim the police did this?

 

[code1211]

1. This is not about Ukraine, end of

2. no, it is not another point of view because the police is there to end dangerous situations but also use appropriate violence in situations because they are the police, not there to shoot to kill

In the US, police are called to crime scenes at which they are ambushed, shot and killed.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

That is another point of view.

I recently saw images of a number of victims on the Nightly News videoed in Ukraine with hands tied behind their backs and bullet holes in the backs of their heads.

The lethal threat seemed to have been real for these folks.

Were they mistaken?

A warzone vs policing?

Unless you believe the US is domestically in a war

 

[code1211]

You claim the police did this?

My guess is the the Russians occupying and enforcing martial law did this.

What's your guess?

 

[Peter King]

In the US, police are called to crime scenes at which they are ambushed, shot and killed.

which has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine. If you had stated that about US officers that would have been a bit to the subject but that just says that to criminal gangs the police has become one part of the gang war. One more gang so to speak which fights for the dominance on the streets. That has to do with the pervasive gang and gun culture IMO.

 

[code1211]

A warzone vs policing?

Unless you believe the US is domestically in a war

The victims I described in Ukraine were restrained and then murdered.

These were not soldiers dead as casualties of war.

 

[code1211]

which has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine. If you had stated that about US officers that would have been a bit to the subject but that just says that to criminal gangs the police has become one part of the gang war. One more gang so to speak which fights for the dominance on the streets. That has to do with the pervasive gang and gun culture IMO.

Your thinking on this is interesting in that it is so disconnected.

Criminals see the police as enemies fighting for dominance on the streets.

Your own thinking reveals the actuality of what is going on, but you seem to have missed the central point that you have presented with your own words.

The police presence on the streets is intended to be the protection for the citizenry against the chaos perpetrated by the ACTUAL gangs.

The propagandists, in their ongoing efforts to deceive the weak minded, have characterized police presence as you describe. That propaganda is a lie.

The killing of Ukrainians by martial law officers enforcing the order demanded by the invaders is what it is.

 

[Peter King]

Your thinking on this is interesting in that it is so disconnected.

Criminals see the police as enemies fighting for dominance on the streets.

Your own thinking reveals the actuality of what is going on, but you seem to have missed the central point that you have presented with your own words.

The police presence on the streets is intended to be the protection for the citizenry against the chaos perpetrated by the ACTUAL gangs.

The propagandists, in their ongoing efforts to deceive the weak minded, have characterized police presence as you describe. That propaganda is a lie.

The killing of Ukrainians by martial law officers enforcing the order demanded by the invaders is what it is.

I am not saying I think it is a gang, I am talking about how a good deal of people do see the police as a gang. With the colors and the discolored flag.

But it is clear that the police and the gangs are in a war for the street. And most of that has to do with gun laws and more importantly the war on drugs. And while most people feel protected by the police, there are lot of people who see it differently.

 

[code1211]

I am not saying I think it is a gang, I am talking about how a good deal of people do see the police as a gang. With the colors and the discolored flag.

But it is clear that the police and the gangs are in a war for the street. And most of that has to do with gun laws and more importantly the war on drugs. And while most people feel protected by the police, there are lot of people who see it differently.

Police who wear uniforms are clearly marked for ease of recognition. "...colors and a discolored flag" is propaganda.

The odd perceptions promoted by the propagandists in our media are what they are.

The police that attempted to restrain rioters during the Summer of 2020 were depicted as Storm Troopers resurrected from Nazi Germany.

The police that attempted to restrain rioters during the 1/6 Demonstration were depicted as defenders of freedom resurrected from the Alamo.

The police in all of the instances during BOTH the Summer of 2020 and during the 1/6 Demonstration WERE DOING EXACLY THE SAME THINGS IN THE EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION(S).

The people who are deceived by the lying propagandists working to deceive the weak minded are what they are.

 

[Peter King]

The victims I described in Ukraine were restrained and then murdered.

These were not soldiers dead as casualties of war.

But those are war crimes and it has nothing to do with a police officer in the Hague being prosecuted for violating the shooting rules of engagement as a police officer.

 

[Peter King]

Police who wear uniforms are clearly marked for ease of recognition. "...colors and a discolored flag" is propaganda.

No, that is not propaganda, that is how some people see the colors of the discolored flag and police uniforms. Not saying I agree but it is a fact that some see the police in this manner.

The odd perceptions promoted by the propagandists in our media are what they are.

it is the view of parts of the public, not the media I was talking about.

The police that attempted to restrain rioters during the Summer of 2020 were depicted as Storm Troopers resurrected from Nazi Germany.

no, the issue was that some looked like storm troopers (and some actually did) and others acted very violently.

The police that attempted to restrain rioters during the 1/6 Demonstration were depicted as defenders of freedom resurrected from the Alamo.

Well sadly the police there did not act as thoroughly (most of the time) as they have during BLM protests.

The police in all of the instances during BOTH the Summer of 2020 and during the 1/6 Demonstration WERE DOING EXACLY THE SAME THINGS IN THE EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION(S).

I disagree, the level of violence used by the police to sweep the place so Trump could walk to some place and hold up a bible was not the same was the violence used again.

The people who are deceived by the lying propagandists working to deceive the weak minded are what they are.

Well we can say the same about those lying propagandists who deceive the public by claiming the reactions to the peaceful protests against police brutality were policed the same way as the police behavior was at the Capitol Trump riots. Some officers used forceful tactics but I do not think the 2 responses to those 2 situations are even close to comparable.

 

[code1211]

But those are war crimes and it has nothing to do with a police officer in the Hague being prosecuted for violating the shooting rules of engagement as a police officer.

Martial law enforced by invading soldiers are enforcing martial law.

 

[code1211]

No, that is not propaganda, that is how some people see the colors of the discolored flag and police uniforms. Not saying I agree but it is a fact that some see the police in this manner.

it is the view of parts of the public, not the media I was talking about.

no, the issue was that some looked like storm troopers (and some actually did) and others acted very violently.

Well sadly the police there did not act as thoroughly (most of the time) as they have during BLM protests.

I disagree, the level of violence used by the police to sweep the place so Trump could walk to some place and hold up a bible was not the same was the violence used again.

Well we can say the same about those lying propagandists who deceive the public by claiming the reactions to the peaceful protests against police brutality were policed the same way as the police behavior was at the Capitol Trump riots. Some officers used forceful tactics but I do not think the 2 responses to those 2 situations are even close to comparable.

What you think and what is supported by actual, real world facts are worlds apart.

The police were doing what police do in all of the situations from the summer of 2020 riots through the 1/6 riot. In all cases, events seem to have started out as demonstrations and then turned into less benign things.

One very significant difference is that no cops were killed by rioters on 1/6 and there was very, very slight and minimal damage on 1/6.

So... There's that.

"If this is true, what else must be true?"

 

[Peter King]

What you think and what is supported by actual, real world facts are worlds apart.

The police were doing what police do in all of the situations from the summer of 2020 riots through the 1/6 riot. In all cases, events seem to have started out as demonstrations and then turned into less benign things.

One very significant difference is that no cops were killed by rioters on 1/6 and there was very, very slight and minimal damage on 1/6.

So... There's that.

"If this is true, what else must be true?"

Hilarious, and nonsense. The policing at the black lives matter protests compared to that on the right wing attempt at the Capitol for the overthrowing of the election results.

So you are here trying to compare the thousands of BLM protests to 1 event

Several police officers died after the 1/6 riots, several took their own life and one died shortly after the riots.

Factcheck reviewed the deaths of the police after the BLM riots and at that time none were directly connected BLM protests..

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...nflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

 

[Peter King]

Martial law enforced by invading soldiers are enforcing martial law.

Which has nothing to do with police being prosecuted for violating someones rights.

 

[Napoleon]

Hilarious, and nonsense. The policing at the black lives matter protests compared to that on the right wing attempt at the Capitol for the overthrowing of the election results.

So you are here trying to compare the thousands of BLM protests to 1 event

Several police officers died after the 1/6 riots, several took their own life and one died shortly after the riots.

Factcheck reviewed the deaths of the police after the BLM riots and at that time none were directly connected BLM protests..

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...nflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

The Capitol Police are a bunch of Barney Fiefs. They’re Keystone Cops not a real police force.

 

[code1211]

Hilarious, and nonsense. The policing at the black lives matter protests compared to that on the right wing attempt at the Capitol for the overthrowing of the election results.

So you are here trying to compare the thousands of BLM protests to 1 event

Several police officers died after the 1/6 riots, several took their own life and one died shortly after the riots.

Factcheck reviewed the deaths of the police after the BLM riots and at that time none were directly connected BLM protests..

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...nflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

Your raving is just that.

The facts are the facts.

Billions of dollars of damage in the riots of the Summer of 2020. Three widows broken at the Capitol along with one door scratched, a little littering and a smelly chemical sprayed on a few statures.

You are free to hold your own conclusions, but the actual facts are the actual facts.