Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter shirt

[Fiddytree]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matt...

Part of the false choice is a result of our increasing societal polarization. We're not allowed to consider nuances or middle positions. We're chastised and ridiculed unless we pick the uber-extreme.

That's probably the biggest portion of it right now.

Another orientation I picked up is that while police are important pillars of society (and a dangerous job at that), they still need to be analyzed in similar ways as other public bureaucracies and civil service agencies.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

"Officially" (as official as anything on twitter can be), it started back with the Trayvon Martin incident.

It simply didn't start with Michael Brown, however I have a theory that if people associate it with the Brown case, they have a bigger leg to stand on when attacking it and they can dismiss the long history of black people pointing out that police tend to use more force for blacks.

What's really at the root of this movement is a multi-generational dispute between the black community and police officers. BLM isn't anything new, it's just the latest incarnation of something which was already being discussed for the better part of 100 years.

Hair splitting. It took off after the Ferguson incident and that became one of their mantras.It was a big deal too as that is a VERY inflammatory statement.It undermines their credibility on real grievances.

BLM is chock full of racists too. I read somewhere today. For Obama the face of racism is always white, never black.

 

[radcen]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

"Officially" (as official as anything on twitter can be), it started back with the Trayvon Martin incident.

It simply didn't start with Michael Brown, however I have a theory that if people associate it with the Brown case, they have a bigger leg to stand on when attacking it and they can dismiss the long history of black people pointing out that police tend to use more force for blacks.

What's really at the root of this movement is a multi-generational dispute between the black community and police officers. BLM isn't anything new, it's just the latest incarnation of something which was already being discussed for the better part of 100 years.

I would guess that people associate it with Brown because that's when it seemed to jump into widespread awareness.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

"Officially" (as official as anything on twitter can be), it started back with the Trayvon Martin incident.

It simply didn't start with Michael Brown, however I have a theory that if people associate it with the Brown case, they have a bigger leg to stand on when attacking it and they can dismiss the long history of black people pointing out that police tend to use more force for blacks.

What's really at the root of this movement is a multi-generational dispute between the black community and police officers. BLM isn't anything new, it's just the latest incarnation of something which was already being discussed for the better part of 100 years.

Even if it's associated with Zimmerman, it's a hard situation to hang your hat on.
At the end of that issue, with everything that we can possibly know objectively all laid out, we don't know if he was or was not justified.

There were other, more clear cut issue (like the Chicago cop and the seemingly attempted cover up) where people were completely justified with their anger and protests.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Even if it's associated with Zimmerman, it's a hard situation to hang your hat on.
At the end of that issue, with everything that we can possibly know objectively all laid out, we don't know if he was or was not justified.

There were other, more clear cut issue (like the Chicago cop and the seemingly attempted cover up) where people were completely justified with their anger and protests.

I think looking at it from a case by case perspective ends up missing the social and emotional problems that ran strong underneath. To some extent you could see legitimate complaints in each case that was brought to societal consciousness, but it may be lost within the parts of that case which do not bode well for activists.

However, because of the Brown case, we ended up discovering how the local community as a whole long felt alienated by the police, the racial and geographic composition of its police force, ineffective police procedures used in that community-including the lack of beat policing in their neighborhoods, etc.

Then because of that community's experience, we were given greater access to several other communities and their issues with police procedures and whatnot.

Focusing on strictly case by case encounters outside of social context won't really get at legitimate underlying concerns, nor will it go far in understanding even the wrongheaded declaration of guilt of police officers by activists.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

I think looking at it from a case by case perspective ends up missing the social and emotional problems that ran strong underneath. To some extent you could see legitimate complaints in each case that was brought to societal consciousness, but it may be lost within the parts of that case which do not bode well for activists.

However, because of the Brown case, we ended up discovering how the local community as a whole long felt alienated by the police, the racial and geographic composition of its police force, ineffective police procedures used in that community-including the lack of beat policing in their neighborhoods, etc.

Then because of that community's experience, we were given greater access to several other communities and their issues with police procedures and whatnot.

Focusing on strictly case by case encounters outside of social context won't really get at legitimate underlying concerns, nor will it go far in understanding even the wrongheaded declaration of guilt of police officers by activists.

That's a fair point, the message being more important than the issue.
After the momentum gets going though, some of it becomes tin foil hat stuff and people have legit criticisms.
I don't want police to treat Black people like crap, at the same time, I've looked at their platform and some of the cases they laud as examples of injustice.
Their platform is unsupportable for me and I reject them using unknown or known cases where the accused was innocent.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Hair splitting.

There is a difference between 2013 and 2014. You're simply incorrect about when it started, and what it started with. The sooner you admit it, the less painful this will be.

 

[CycloneWanderer]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Walking off your job as security didn't put the players at risk, it put the crowd at risk.

What crowd?

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Even if it's associated with Zimmerman, it's a hard situation to hang your hat on.
At the end of that issue, with everything that we can possibly know objectively all laid out, we don't know if he was or was not justified.

What we know is that the police in his area simply took his version of events after questioning. Even after, his lawyers came up with a fancy video to support his version of events and that's more or less what this was decided on.

There were other, more clear cut issue (like the Chicago cop and the seemingly attempted cover up) where people were completely justified with their anger and protests.

Again, I've pointed out that this is a long discussion and not one based on cases. People have dismissed an entire argument going back quite a few generations because 2 or 3 cases didn't really fit in with the arguments. What about the piles of evidence demonstrating clear discrepancies in sentencing and treatment by the police? What about evidence showing that discrimination is far more prevalent than voter fraud?

Your positions looks to dismiss the arguments which have been made by the other side for decades because of 3-4 cases.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

What we know is that the police in his area simply took his version of events after questioning. Even after, his lawyers came up with a fancy video to support his version of events and that's more or less what this was decided on.

Whether true or not, it's still considered unknown.
At this point, it's too grey, in my opinion to use as a good example.

The young guy shot 16 times in Chicago was complete bull**** and the cops tried to cover it up.
All of that is clearly provable, not up for debate.
That should be the poster child of the issue, again, in my opinion.

Again, I've pointed out that this is a long discussion and not one based on cases. People have dismissed an entire argument going back quite a few generations because 2 or 3 cases didn't really fit in with the arguments. What about the piles of evidence demonstrating clear discrepancies in sentencing and treatment by the police? What about evidence showing that discrimination is far more prevalent than voter fraud?

Your positions looks to dismiss the arguments which have been made by the other side for decades because of 3-4 cases.

I'm not dismissing it at all, I know there are real, historical problem I want addressed for these communities.
I'm even willing to in some way or another, to support some type of restorative justice to people whose ancestors of slaves.

Things I'm not willing to support are the cases where the cop/person involved has lots of evidence of innocence.
Some of the platform lines on the BLM website are quasi crazy feminist/SJW stuff, I can't support out of principle.

An example, the issues listed under Black Women, Black Families, Black Villages.
(wouldn't let me copy and past)

Just a moment...

 

[Fiddytree]

Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matt...

What we know is that the police in his area simply took his version of events after questioning. Even after, his lawyers came up with a fancy video to support his version of events and that's more or less what this was decided on.



Again, I've pointed out that this is a long discussion and not one based on cases. People have dismissed an entire argument going back quite a few generations because 2 or 3 cases didn't really fit in with the arguments. What about the piles of evidence demonstrating clear discrepancies in sentencing and treatment by the police? What about evidence showing that discrimination is far more prevalent than voter fraud?

Your positions looks to dismiss the arguments which have been made by the other side for decades because of 3-4 cases.

I think there was one really good point that was brought up by critics, namely, if a movement follows a symbolic case, that ought to be a pretty clear-cut case. So what happened was people found plausible means to dismiss the virtues of the case and the greater need for reforms.

I bought into some of those concerns.

Nevertheless, in the last few years what we saw was even when we have those pretty solid symbolic cases, folks went way way out of their way to dismiss and legitimize a death, even when in another victim's context, these folks would be giving the battle cry. Of course, I'm thinking about that kid with the toy gun who wasn't given a prayer to come out alive. Even the biggest 2nd amendment folks ranting about kids being penalized for toy guns at school because of liberal anti-gun administrators, were not silent, but justifying why this kid was stupid and had to be killed.

So yeah, I was aware and cognizant of racial divides driving the justification of police procedures on minorities and there being racial injustice involved, but in instances like that, it became very clear (insultingly clear) to me how much of a problem it is.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Whether true or not, it's still considered unknown.
At this point, it's too grey, in my opinion to use as a good example.

That's kind of the issue. The case was handled in such a way where it looked like a continuation of the good old boy club. Black men suspected of crimes aren't afforded good old boy treatment in a situation where intent isn't clear. While I can say that with the absence of a conviction, Zimmerman remains innocent, the case was treated in such a manner where his innocence was assumed from day 1 by the police. That's a privilege which simply isn't afforded to blacks.

The young guy shot 16 times in Chicago was complete bull**** and the cops tried to cover it up. All of that is clearly provable, not up for debate. That should be the poster child of the issue, again, in my opinion.

I'm not dismissing it at all, I know there are real, historical problem I want addressed for these communities.
I'm even willing to in some way or another, to support some type of restorative justice to people who're ancestors of slaves.

Things I'm not willing to support are the cases where the cop/person involved has lots of evidence of innocence.
Some of the platform lines on the BLM website are quasi crazy feminist/SJW stuff, I can't support out of principle.

An example, the issues listed under Black Women, Black Families, Black Villages.
(wouldn't let me copy and past)

Just a moment...

What about police brutality, stop and frisk, the NYPD editing articles on Wikipedia? I can find entire volumes on police brutality in major cities, all of which form part of a larger argument which has been calling for reform in the justice system for decades. However, people seem to think all of that can be dismissed because BLM didn't pick the right cases. What about the times where they have a leg to stand on?

In short, the issue is always discussed in the same manner: Minorities bring up issues concerning mistreatment by police. Cop supporting people figure out a way to undermine the particular group bringing up the discussion. With the Black Panthers it was the criminal cases of some of its leaders. Nothing is ever done about the mistreatment by the police until the next generation.

Social media is making that increasingly harder to do. Videos such as the Philando Castile can't be archived in some newspaper indefinitely. These images can now be shared years after the events. Whether these groups do it under the BLM banner or another, eventually authorities will have to address an issue they've ignored for decades.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

That's kind of the issue. The case was handled in such a way where it looked like a continuation of the good old boy club. Black men suspected of crimes aren't afforded good old boy treatment in a situation where intent isn't clear. While I can say that with the absence of a conviction, Zimmerman remains innocent, the case was treated in such a manner where his innocence was assumed from day 1 by the police. That's a privilege which simply isn't afforded to blacks.

And that's wrong.
You'll see no disagreement from me.

What about police brutality, stop and frisk, the NYPD editing articles on Wikipedia? I can find entire volumes on police brutality in major cities, all of which form part of a larger argument which has been calling for reform in the justify system for decades. However, people seem to think all of that can be dismissed because BLM didn't pick the right cases. What about the times where they have a leg to stand on?

Again, when wrong is done, it should be punished, more so if a person is in a position of authority.
When they have a leg to stand on, I won't argue it at all, why should I?
Why would any reasonable person?

In short, the issue is always discussed in the same manner: Minorities bring up issues concerning mistreatment by police. Cop supporting people figure out a way to undermine the particular group bringing up the discussion. With the Black Panthers it was the criminal cases of some of its leaders. Nothing is ever done about the mistreatment by the police until the next generation.

Well honestly, with all things political, the gears move slowly.
Nearly always.
It's not right, it's not fair, but it often is.

Social media is making that increasingly harder to do. Images such as the Philando Castile can't be archived in some newspaper indefinitely. These images can now be shared years after the events. Whether these groups do it under the BLM banner or another, eventually authorities will have to address an issue they've ignored for decades.

I'm not judging either of those cases until we get some more verifiable information.
I'm glad that there is greater documentation, it's often good.

I'm neutral when it's unknown or not fully investigated.
I don't care about the alleged victims background (ie, prior criminal charges, facebook pictures, etc), I just want the facts and a real fleshed out investigation.

 

[LowDown]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

I think it's a fair assumption from your comments about what the police officers' motivations were and how quickly other officers would move up to take the jobs that you consider yourself some sort of authority. Otherwise you would not have made such a silly statement.

"President Obama referred to himself 45 times over the course of the speech he delivered Tuesday at the memorial service for the five police officers killed in Dallas last week.

Read more: Obama Mentions Himself 45 Times In Dallas Memorial Speech | The Daily Caller

As for class, almost everyone knows a startling, shocking lack of class when they see it or hear it. Standing up at the memorial service for the murdered officers to defend the BLM and condemn police officers is no class. It's not like the pitiful president can't get on television any time he wants."

Right. Pure class. These guys are dead but now about me and my friends.

At this point we're kind of used to it.

"Dialogue about race" means blacks lecture to and make demands of the rest of us and take absolutely no responsibility for the problems on themselves. It's a non-starter.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

Hair splitting.

hairsplitting for accuracy

It took off after the Ferguson incident and that became one of their mantras.It was a big deal too as that is a VERY inflammatory statement.

the words 'black lives matter' is VERY inflammatory; how so?

It undermines their credibility on real grievances.

in what way is their credibility undermined?

BLM is chock full of racists too.

no doubt
just like this forum ... only this forum's racists are not necessarily black

I read somewhere today. For Obama the face of racism is always white, never black.

then you were reading propaganda
as recently as yesterday, Obama gave a speech, and showed anyone who listened that such is not the case

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

hairsplitting for accuracy


the words 'black lives matter' is VERY inflammatory; how so?


in what way is their credibility undermined?

se

the mantra of "hands up ,don't shoot ' is very inflammatory. It was BS. It undermines their credibility in a major way.If they aren't being truthful about that, what else are they lying about?
If they are willing to push a discredited talking point , what else would they be willing to do? Ends just the means and all that.

as recently as yesterday, Obama gave a speech, and showed anyone who listened that such is not the case

Lets' just say that speech did not over so well outside Obama's echo chamber..

Even at a funeral, dividing the nation is apparently good politics | TheHill
Obama Mentions Himself 45 Times In Dallas Memorial Speech | The Daily Caller
No, Obama, It's Not Easier To Buy A Glock Than A Book

Easier to buy a glock than a book. What a tool.

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Off-duty cops quit security for WNBA game after players wear Black Lives Matter s

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...after-players-wear-black-lives-matter-shirts/







This Blacks versus the Police fabrication is starting to get very real and very raw.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Those shirts were wrong. I would walk out too.