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Obscene United State Supreme Court judge?

aps said:
Scalia flipped the bird? While it shows he is human, I would think that a man sitting on the highest court in the land would show some class and dignity. But why would I expect someone who went duck hunting with Dick Cheney and took Air Force Two to get there and then subsequently refuse to recuse himself from a case involving Cheney to show any sort of class and dignity. I should not be remotely surprised by his low-class actions.

Me thinks that Scalia is protesting too much. He obviously feels defensive for a reason. Anyone who is secure in their ability to be impartial wouldn't have behaved that way.

I'm impartially flipping you the bird right now.
 
KidRocks said:
Anyone else notice the hypocricy? I mean here we have a supposedly good Christian man making an obscene gesture right on the front steps of God's house... nice!
Shows he's impartial. :rofl
 
aps said:
When people give the finger, they look like trash, in my opinion. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I would certainly never pull that kind of behavior if I had a prestigious job.

It's funny you have such a huge problem with someone giving someone else the finger but you have no problem saying someone looks like trash and has no class. Why don't you get off your high horse. Geez.

I certainly found it a real class act when you told me you hoped my smoking, when it killed someone, killed me. Get over yourself. You'd never get a prestigious job.
 
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talloulou said:
It's funny you have such a huge problem with someone giving someone else the finger but you have no problem saying someone looks like trash and has no class. Why don't you get off your high horse. Geez.

I certainly found it a real class act when you told me you hoped my smoking, when it killed someone, killed me. Get over yourself. You'd never get a prestigious job.

LOL Whatever, talloulou. You have no idea what I do for a living, but hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself to trash me, you go right ahead. I already apologized to you, and I was sincere in my apology.

And I won't get over myself. If you were me, you wouldn't be able to either. :lol:
 
talloulou said:
I'm impartially flipping you the bird right now.

I wouldn't expect anything more from you, talloulou.
 
I don't know how many of you are Catholic, but as a Catholic, it is easy to understand the frustration. There has long been an anti-Catholic sentiment in the United States. Initially, it was quite overt when Irish Catholics moved to the US and challenged the dominant WASP (White Anglo-Saxon PROTESTANT) culture. Since then, more Catholics have moved to the United States. The KKK even has Catholics on its list of targets, something that has been true since just after it's creation. When the US took over the Philippines at the turn of the century, President McKinley spoke of the need to Christianize the natives. Someone forgot to tell him that the Spaniards had beaten him to the punch by a few hundred years.

Even in the post WWII era, it has continued, though not nearly as overt. However, it still rears its ugly head. JFK was hounded with it through his campaign. Governor Wilder (VA) commented about Judge Thomas's potential loyalty to the Pope when he was nominated for the SCOTUS. Note: Clarence Thomas isn't even Catholic, he merely attended Catholic school. There are still Protestant denominations who speak of having to convert Catholics to Christianity. Even today, Catholics face questions regarding their religion and public life. How often do Protestants face it?

Growing up in New Hampshire, I saw very little religious prejudice. There is a slight majority of Catholics, but no problems between the two major branches of Christianity. However, when I lived in predominantly Baptist Georgia, I felt first-hand the sort of anti-Catholic bigotry that still exists among all too-many Protestants.

While I don't support Justice Scalia's use of an obscene jesture (I don't think he gave him the finger through - the description I read of it indicated something else), I completely understand it as a fellow Catholic understanding the history of how Catholics have been treated in the United States.
 
ludahai said:
Growing up in New Hampshire, I saw very little religious prejudice. There is a slight majority of Catholics, but no problems between the two major branches of Christianity. However, when I lived in predominantly Baptist Georgia, I felt first-hand the sort of anti-Catholic bigotry that still exists among all too-many Protestants.

I see what you're saying; however, if someone's faith is in his/her heart, no one should be able to shake that. If I truly believe in something and people attack me for that belief, I truly don't care. This is not criticism of you, ludahai--this is my wondering why Scalia, who is clearly a brilliant man, would let anyone have such an impact on him?

While I don't support Justice Scalia's use of an obscene jesture (I don't think he gave him the finger through - the description I read of it indicated something else), I completely understand it as a fellow Catholic understanding the history of how Catholics have been treated in the United States.

My gut instinct tells me that he would not have given someone the finger, although I have ben losing respect for the guy for some time now. He should have recused himself when the case that involved Cheney came before the Court. Or, he should have declinded the offer to take Air Force 2 to go duck hunting.
 
Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus:
Why? Does the 1st amendment not apply to him?
Of coarse it does. I wasn't trying to shut him up. I was just giving my honest reaction to what he said. Aren't I allowed the 1st Amendment as well?
 
aps said:
I see what you're saying; however, if someone's faith is in his/her heart, no one should be able to shake that. If I truly believe in something and people attack me for that belief, I truly don't care. This is not criticism of you, ludahai--this is my wondering why Scalia, who is clearly a brilliant man, would let anyone have such an impact on him?

Good question, and I would be lying if I said I had the answer except to say that we are all human and thus flawed. Honestly, we don't know what was going through his mind. Perhaps he had a bad morning? Who knows. He is a Supreme Court Justice, but he is also human. I think sometimes, we lose sight of that.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

danarhea said:
Coming out of a church service, a reporter asked Scalia that, since he was Roman Catholic, if he had any difficulty of showing impartiality when deciding on church and state issues. Scalia then said "You know what I say to those people?" He then stuck his middle finger prominently in the air and said "That's Sicilian." That was quite an unseemly thing for a Supreme Court Justice to do, but it IS hilarious.

Article is here.

So, did Scalia drink too much communion wine at church? LOL.
Could someone please point out where in this article, the claim is made that Scalia "then stuck his middle finger in the air"? I certainly don't see it and have yet to find the claim in any article on the event.

Scalia did feel compelled to respond to the Boston Herald news story:

“Your reporter, an up-and-coming ‘gotcha’ star named Laurel J. Sweet, asked me (o-so-sweetly) what I said to those people. . .,” Scalia wrote to Executive Editor Kenneth A. Chandler. “I responded, jocularly, with a gesture that consisted of fanning the fingers of my right hand under my chin. Seeing that she did not understand, I said, ‘That’s Sicilian,’ and explained its meaning.” which was that I could not care less.

That this is in fact the import of the gesture was nicely explained and exemplified in a book that was very popular some years ago, Luigi Barzini’s The Italians:

“The extended fingers of one hand moving slowly back and forth under the raised chin means: ‘I couldn’t care less. It’s no business of mine. Count me out.’ This is the gesture made in 1860 by the grandfather of Signor O.O. of Messina as an answer to Garibaldi. The general, who had conquered Sicily with his volunteers and was moving on to the mainland, had seen him, a robust youth at the time, dozing on a little stone wall, in the shadow of a carob tree, along a country lane. He reined in his horse and asked him: ‘Young man, will you not join us in our fight to free our brothers in Southern Italy from the bloody tyranny of the Bourbon kings? How can you sleep when your country needs you? Awake and to arms!’ The young man silently made the gesture. Garibaldi spurred his horse on.” (Page 63.)

How could your reporter leap to the conclusion (contrary to my explanation) that the gesture was obscene? Alas, the explanation is evident in the following line from her article: “ ‘That’s Sicilian,’ the Italian jurist said, interpreting for the ‘Sopranos’ challenged.” From watching too many episodes of the Sopranos, your staff seems to have acquired the belief that any Sicilian gesture is obscene - especially when made by an “Italian jurist.” (I am, by the way, an American jurist.)
http://news.bostonherald.com/galleries/images/506707_scalialetter03292006.jpg
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

Gill said:
Could someone please point out where in this article, the claim is made that Scalia "then stuck his middle finger in the air"? I certainly don't see it and have yet to find the claim in any article on the event.
It doesn't say it anywhere, but then again, this is a danarhea thread. I heard it reported that Scalia gave a very common Italian gesture - flicking four fingers from under his chin.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

KCConservative said:
It doesn't say it anywhere, but then again, this is a danarhea thread. I heard it reported that Scalia gave a very common Italian gesture - flicking four fingers from under his chin.

Which happens to be the equivalent of giving someone the finger. Also, the reports were skewed from different sources and some of them did state that he gave the finger rather than the 4 finger under the chin gesture.

I think you need to back off danarhea and jfuh too. Your disdain for both of them has been made clear by you to the point of nausea and it is seriously taking away from any discussion that might be had. A little maturity from all of you would be a nice change.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

jallman said:
Which happens to be the equivalent of giving someone the finger. Also, the reports were skewed from different sources and some of them did state that he gave the finger rather than the 4 finger under the chin gesture.

I think you need to back off danarhea and jfuh too. Your disdain for both of them has been made clear by you to the point of nausea and it is seriously taking away from any discussion that might be had. A little maturity from all of you would be a nice change.
Perhaps you should read the quote that Scalia gave in his letter that I quoted above. It is very clear on the meaning of the gesture.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

Gill said:
Perhaps you should read the quote that Scalia gave in his letter that I quoted above. It is very clear on the meaning of the gesture.

I just think that a Supreme Court justice shouldn't be giving hand gestures. I bet President Bush would NEVER do that, nor any of the other 8 justices on the Supreme Court. I still think it's appalling and a disappointment.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

aps said:
I just think that a Supreme Court justice shouldn't be giving hand gestures. I bet President Bush would NEVER do that, nor any of the other 8 justices on the Supreme Court. I still think it's appalling and a disappointment.

Yet more proof that the liberals on this board are so blinded by hate, they have to continue the attack even AFTER the accusations of obscenity have been blown out of the water.

Why am I not surprised?
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

aps said:
I just think that a Supreme Court justice shouldn't be giving hand gestures. I bet President Bush would NEVER do that, nor any of the other 8 justices on the Supreme Court. I still think it's appalling and a disappointment.
I'll be sure and let Scalia know that he shouldn't wave to people in crowds any more... don't want to offend any libs.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

ludahai said:
Yet more proof that the liberals on this board are so blinded by hate, they have to continue the attack even AFTER the accusations of obscenity have been blown out of the water.

Why am I not surprised?

That's what you got out of my post, ludahai? LOL It shows me you have no understanding of my post. Oh well. I think my posts exude disappointment--not hate. But if you need to feel better about your accusations by saying that I am filled with hate, more power to ya. :lol:
 
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Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

Gill said:
I'll be sure and let Scalia know that he shouldn't wave to people in crowds any more... don't want to offend any libs.

Oh brother, Gill. There's a huge difference between a postive hand gesture and a negative one. I am the president of my homeowners association. Do you know how many complaints I get from homeowners? It is a thankless job, and people attack me. I cannot fathom being at a meeting or in my neighborhood and someone asking me a question that I DON'T like and my doing any sort of negative hand gesture. I don't think I am so unique that I have manners that the average person does not. I think that a man who sits on the highest court should hold himself to a higher standard.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

jallman said:
Which happens to be the equivalent of giving someone the finger.
Wrong, it doesn't mean anything close to giving the finger.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

KCConservative said:
Wrong, it doesn't mean anything close to giving the finger.

rather than just declaring me wrong, why dont you pretend for just a moment that we are here to actually make points. please, explain to us, with all its complexities, the dialect of emphatic gesture in the context of ethnic communities and generally accepted American interpretation of said gestures. You know, just for a minute, pretend that this isnt some sort of flame war and make an actual point. :roll:
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

jallman said:
rather than just declaring me wrong, why dont you pretend for just a moment that we are here to actually make points. please, explain to us, with all its complexities, the dialect of emphatic gesture in the context of ethnic communities and generally accepted American interpretation of said gestures. You know, just for a minute, pretend that this isnt some sort of flame war and make an actual point. :roll:

It's already been covered in this thread.

The judge explained exactly what the gesture means. Here it is again:
http://news.bostonherald.com/galleries/images/506707_scalialetter03292006.jpg

As for your complaint of flaming, I don't see any in this thread. I'm not sure why you want to do all this pretending. Sorry, I can't help you on that.
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

KCConservative said:
It's already been covered in this thread.

The judge explained exactly what the gesture means. Here it is again:
http://news.bostonherald.com/galleries/images/506707_scalialetter03292006.jpg

As for your complaint of flaming, I don't see any in this thread. I'm not sure why you want to do all this pretending. Sorry, I can't help you on that.

Back-pedaling over the meaning of an obscene hand gesture by the man who offended is hardly comparable to the type of critical analysis I asked of you, but, if you are an under-achiever, so be it.

And there is no pretending on my part. I asked you to make a point rather than just state a foundationless assertion against what was presented to you. Flaming can come passively as well as it does aggressively and I make no effort to sugar coat the fact that I find you to be a passive aggressive flamer. If you'd like, I could just post my list of examples right now and be done with it, but thats not what this thread is about.

What it is about is the fact that a public officer of the highest esteem showed a moment of human weakness when placed in a position of defensive posture by an aggressive media that doesnt seem to respect boundaries. That is undeniable. Now what we get to discuss is how serious that infraction is, if at all, and determine for ourselves whether we feel he is demonstrating proper character in his everyday life to keep him credible in his professional/political life.

As for me, I like scalia and I give him credit for standing his ground. Others may disagree with me, and this is why this is debatepolitics.com after all, right?
 
Re: Scalia Gives a Sicilian Gift

jallman said:
Back-pedaling over the meaning of an obscene hand gesture by the man who offended is hardly comparable to the type of critical analysis I asked of you, but, if you are an under-achiever, so be it.

And there is no pretending on my part. I asked you to make a point rather than just state a foundationless assertion against what was presented to you. Flaming can come passively as well as it does aggressively and I make no effort to sugar coat the fact that I find you to be a passive aggressive flamer. If you'd like, I could just post my list of examples right now and be done with it, but thats not what this thread is about.

What it is about is the fact that a public officer of the highest esteem showed a moment of human weakness when placed in a position of defensive posture by an aggressive media that doesnt seem to respect boundaries. That is undeniable. Now what we get to discuss is how serious that infraction is, if at all, and determine for ourselves whether we feel he is demonstrating proper character in his everyday life to keep him credible in his professional/political life.

As for me, I like scalia and I give him credit for standing his ground. Others may disagree with me, and this is why this is debatepolitics.com after all, right?

If you want to allege backpedaling, then take it up with the judge. He wrote the letter. He explained the meaning of the Italian gesture. Dana was the only one telling us it was otherwise, which was refuted hours ago.

Yes, you asked me to make a point, but I had already made it. Once again and simply stated, you were wrong in comparing his gesture to that of "the finger." If you find that to be "passive aggressive flaming", Dr. jallman, then fine. Frankly, it just sounds like you're a little thin skinned. If my using the word "wrong" upsets you to this degree, I'd suggest a less combative forum. I made my point succinctly. Sorry if you're bent out of shape over it.

Finally, I completely agree that the over aggressive media overstepped their bounds. No matter if the gesture was obscene or not, he was attending church with his family. It wasn't the time or place.
 
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