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Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Growth

Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

The point?

I'll try to see if I can convert it to text, and break it into tiny blocks for you. Give me a little while to do your work for you, OK?
My job to make your point?

I see. Sorry about that, boss. Dock my pay.

In the mean time, you could clearly lay out your case. I read it and saw no advocacy. plenty of discussion, but no advocacy.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Lack of disclaimer does not automatically mean that one accepts what was written, especially when the written statements were clearly hypothetical and based on conditions that have not arisen. There is no assumption that he believes what is written. Mere publication does not equate to one believing it.
Dream on.

If you put your name to it, people can praise you for it, or they can pillory you.

Would you be as quick to withhold praise for some particularly eloquent bit of pontification that met with near universal acclaim in a similarly multi-authored text? I hope you would, for by your reasoning the same doubts of actual authorship apply--if we cannot condemn for lack of specific knowledge, neither should we praise for lack of specific knowledge.

No, your argument fails on all counts. He put his name to the text. Any opprobrium that attaches to the text attaches to him. That is the essence of authorship. If he didn't want the opprobrium, he should not have put his name to something in which he presumably did not believe.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Here ya go.

This was a great deal of trouble, and I take no responsibility for typos. I had to convert the PDF to an image, and run that through an optical character reader.

From pages 787-788:
Of course, a government might require only implantation of the contraceptive capsule, leaving its removal to the individual's discretion but requiring reimplantation after childbirth. Since having a child would require positive action (removal of the capsule). many more births would be prevented than in the reverse situation. Certainly unwanted births and the problem of abortion would both be entirely avoided The disadvantages (apart from the obvious moral objections) include the questionable desirability of keeping the entire female population on a continuous steroid dosage with the contingent health risks, and the logistics of implanting capsules in 50 percent of the population between the ages of 15 and 50.

Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitively among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock.

Physiologist Melvin Ketchel, of the Tufts University School of Medicine, suggested that a sterilant could be developed that would have a very specific action-for example, preventing implantation of the fertilized ovum. He proposed that it be used [0 reduce fertility le~ls by adjustable amounts, anywhere from 5 to 75 percent, rather than to sterilize the whole population completely. In this way. fertility could be adjusted from time to time to meet a society's changing needs, and there would be no need to provide an antidote. . ..


From page 789:

Since the goals of both development and population control arc supposedly identical-an improvement in the well-being of all human beings in this and future generations-it seems only reasonable to plan each to reinforce the other. Emphasis accordingly should be placed on policies that would further the goals of both family limitation and development-for example, rural development and land tenure reform; increased agricultural output; universal primary education for children; old-age support schemes; and improved health care and nutrition, especially for mothers and children.

Survival of human society nevertheless seems likely to require the imposition of direct population control measures beyond family planning in most LDCs. There is no guarantee chat processes of modernization can quickly enough induce the necessary changes in attitudes that might bring growth to a halt. High priority should be given to stimulating those attitude changes and counteracting the effects of pronatalist traditions.

I'd say that theses passages, which are plainly visible, represent advocacy.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Dream on.

If you put your name to it, people can praise you for it, or they can pillory you.

I never suggested otherwise. But what you said is a new argument. Praise and pillory do not equate to one believing it which is the primary premise here. They assume he does believe it, which they have yet to prove. They cannot even prove he wrote that section.

The right to future profits has never, ever, ever equated to ideological acceptance of the written statements.

Would you be as quick to withhold praise for some particularly eloquent bit of pontification that met with near universal acclaim in a similarly multi-authored text? I hope you would, for by your reasoning the same doubts of actual authorship apply--if we cannot condemn for lack of specific knowledge, neither should we praise for lack of specific knowledge.

Sure. I actually praise or condemn the statements. I don't assume that the person writing it actually believes it, especially when it comes to politics.

No, your argument fails on all counts.

Incorrect. You says it fails because you don't have an argument.

Again, the right to future profits does not equate to acceptance. As pointed out and as you ignored, a Devil's advocate argument you think is acceptance despite it being the very nature of not accepting.

My argument fails on all accounts, yet you refuse to address the meat of it. How does that work?

He put his name to the text. Any opprobrium that attaches to the text attaches to him. That is the essence of authorship. If he didn't want the opprobrium, he should not have put his name to something in which he presumably did not believe.

So you believe that everyone believes everything they write? Especially when the writing in question is based on hypothetical scenarios that are dependent upon conditions that have not arose and mere possible paths? I have written about nationalization as the path to reducing oil prices. Do I believe that is the correct path? No.

Try again. And with less fail.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Here ya go.

This was a great deal of trouble, and I take no responsibility for typos. I had to convert the PDF to an image, and run that through an optical character reader.

From pages 787-788:



From page 789:



I'd say that theses passages, which are plainly visible, represent advocacy.

Do you have pages 786 for context? Because the blog I mentioned clearly argues that it was in the context of a hypothetical senario. Not that he actually wanted to enact such policies. You still have to prove he wrote it.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Do you have pages 786 for context? Because the blog I mentioned clearly argues that it was in the context of a hypothetical senario. Not that he actually wanted to enact such policies. You still have to prove he wrote it.
Yes . . . .

Follow link 2, in the earlier post here.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Do you have pages 786 for context? Because the blog I mentioned clearly argues that it was in the context of a hypothetical senario. Not that he actually wanted to enact such policies. You still have to prove he wrote it.
Considering Obama's vote on allowing babies to die after they've survived an abortion, I don't think we do. This seems quite in line with the character of people he would associate with.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

I never suggested otherwise. But what you said is a new argument.
You wish it was a new argument, because then you could actually pretend to have a valid point. Unfortunately for you, my thesis has not changed throughout this thread. There is no new argument, and thus you still have no actual valid point.

Which is unsurprising, since reason and reality would necessarily involve acknowledging that Dear Leader's science adviser wrote a textbook advocating social engineering policies that make China's forced abortions policy seem positively enlightened and compassionate. You will bob, weave, flail and bail to avoid admitting that obvious bit of damnation.

It's entertaining to watch though, so please, do carry on.:2wave:
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Here ya go.

This was a great deal of trouble, and I take no responsibility for typos. I had to convert the PDF to an image, and run that through an optical character reader.

From pages 787-788:

From page 789:

I'd say that theses passages, which are plainly visible, represent advocacy.
What you posted does not indicate advocacy for forced abortions and sterilization. The only items following and related to words like "should" are things other than "forced abortions and sterilization."

What IS being advocated is indicated by these words:
" Emphasis accordingly should be placed on policies that would further the goals of both family limitation and development-for example, rural development and land tenure reform; increased agricultural output; universal primary education for children; old-age support schemes; and improved health care and nutrition, especially for mothers and children. "
"...stimulating those attitude changes and counteracting the effects of pronatalist traditions"
Notably, none of these things is "forced abortions and sterilization."

However, I do think that the headline is technically correct in that he "considered" them. Everyone who has read those passages and everyone who has participated in this thread has "considered" them.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

We don't own this Earth

Sure we do.

Either religiously, where God gave us dominion over everything, or as a matter of nature, where we're evolved to be best able to exercise dominion.

Do you have a higher authority than God or nature which codifies our non-dominance? If so, please do enlighten us. I'd love to see the citations. :rofl
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

But advocating forced abortions and sterilization? I'm extremely skeptical that this report is accurate

It was a staple of the Progressive movement for a long time.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Yes . . . .

Follow link 2, in the earlier post here.
and it has been alleged that Obama's appointee Sunstein supports/supported abortion up until 2 years after birth. will try to find a link tonight

Change You CAN Believe In :thumbs:
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Sure we do.

Either religiously, where God gave us dominion over everything, or as a matter of nature, where we're evolved to be best able to exercise dominion.

Do you have a higher authority than God or nature which codifies our non-dominance? If so, please do enlighten us. I'd love to see the citations. :rofl
Not to feed this derailing too much, but...
Some see it as a stewardship rather than ownership. Hence the phrase "God's green Earth"

All pretty moot imho
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

We don't own this Earth ...
Who's "we", kemosabe? I sure as hell own part of it and I have a deed to prove it.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

In his 2004 book, “Animal Rights,” Czar Sunstein wrote: “Animals should be permitted to bring suit, with human beings as their representatives …”

:screwy :aliens3: :rofl
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

In his 2004 book, “Animal Rights,” Czar Sunstein wrote: “Animals should be permitted to bring suit, with human beings as their representatives …”

:screwy :aliens3: :rofl

I agree completely. I would just ask that the animals be required to fill out the paperwork themselves.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

In his 2004 book, “Animal Rights,” Czar Sunstein wrote: “Animals should be permitted to bring suit, with human beings as their representatives …”

:screwy :aliens3: :rofl
And what was the context to which it was written in? Is he really eccentric, or was it all tongue in cheek? :mrgreen:
I agree completely. I would just ask that the animals be required to fill out the paperwork themselves.

Now that's just speciest and unfair. You know damn well that dogs cannot pick up a pen in their paws, for lack of thumbs!
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

And what was the context to which it was written in? Is he really eccentric, or was it all tongue in cheek? :mrgreen:

No, it was for real.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

This sounds completely and utterly overblown and taken out of context. Does anybody have the text of the passages that supposedly espouse ideals more totalitarian than the Nazis did? I find it odd that a scientist would put their authoritarian manifesto in a textbook, and feel that it is very likely that this is the type of "reporting" that gives Fox its reputation

That is where I am at. At first blush this looks bad, but given the nature of Obama's detractors to spin things from time to time I'm going to ask for a bit more perspective, some context if you will.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Here ya go.

This was a great deal of trouble, and I take no responsibility for typos. I had to convert the PDF to an image, and run that through an optical character reader.

From pages 787-788:



From page 789:



I'd say that theses passages, which are plainly visible, represent advocacy.

None of what you posted shows "advocacy" of forced abortions or sterilization or anything of that nature. He discusses those things, he does not advocate for those things.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

I'm sorry I am not gonna read all 7 pages of this thread but I will say this.
I support a one world government that will help control our population. I believe it is necessary to our survival. Otherwise revelations will be a self fulfilled prophecy.

It will take genius ideas like some of these guys have to control population without killing millions of innocent people along the way.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Earth should be protected. It is more precious than any of us. The earth does not need us humans to survive, we need the earth.

No need to have forced abortions. Voluntary abortion rates speaks for itself. US has the most abortions in the world right? And UK is 2nd or third.

Besides, add to that natural disasters and the ever diminishing natural minerals. The population is overdue on a culling and population drop anyway.
Speak for yourself.
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

I'm curious as to why the Earth needs to survive when humans don't.

What's so precious about the Earth? It's a microscopic speck orbiting another microscopic speck, and the universe would take no notice if either disappeared.

(Never mind that we can't kill it, anyway.)
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Wow, another poorly misquoted/misrepresented article about a democrat....how many such verbal assualts are we going to get before the furor dies....?
 
Re: Obama's Science Czar Considered Forced Abortions, Sterilization as Population Gro

Wow, another poorly misquoted/misrepresented article about a democrat....how many such verbal assualts are we going to get before the furor dies....?
care to share the proper context
 
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