• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama not liberal enough

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
OK, hear me out.

Obama's popularity has dropped quite a bit over the year. Now, of course, that happens to every President to some extent. In fact, Reagan's was about at the same level after his first year.

But who is he losing support from? Not the conservatives. They were never on his side to begin with.

He's losing it from moderates and liberals, who are disappointed in what he has done (or not done). He seems to have been spending much too much time trying to appeal to conservatives, as if they would ever support him, at the expense of those who already do support him.

Building up in Afghanistan, not closing Gitmo, giving in too easily on health care, not getting rid of "don't ask don't tell" and so on...

He's done a lot I agree with, but a lot I disagree with as well, and that makes my support for him a lot less than it used to be.

Do you agree that this is the problem?
 

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
38,750
Reaction score
13,832
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Everyone has their own reasons, and trying to explain the drop in popularity to blanket statement of "he's not liberal enough" is laughable on its face.

It says a lot more about your viewpoint than what's actually going on out there. In a country of 300 million people, nothing is ever that simple.

(Of course, it makes total sense that moderates would start to pull away simply because he's not being extreme enough.)
 
Last edited:

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Everyone has their own reasons, and trying to explain the drop in popularity to blanket statement of "he's not liberal enough" is laughable on its face.

It says a lot more about your viewpoint than what's actually going on out there. In a country of 300 million people, nothing is ever that simple.
Sorry if I implied so. I am trying to come up with trends and generalizations, of course -- that's what political debate is all about.

Saying "well there are lots of reasons" doesn't really provide much insight. I am claiming that this is a major reason. If you have others, let's discuss them.
 

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
38,750
Reaction score
13,832
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
How about the economy isn't visibly improving, the "stimulus" did nothing for unemployment, deficits are off the charts, an unpopular health care bill was rammed through, Obama visibly dithered on Afghanistan for months, etc., etc.

All the while the "post-partisan" atmosphere never materialized.

Now, you can blame all this on whomever you want, but Obama is still the guy in charge.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
107,498
Reaction score
51,368
Location
Georgia
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
OK, hear me out.

Obama's popularity has dropped quite a bit over the year. Now, of course, that happens to every President to some extent. In fact, Reagan's was about at the same level after his first year.

But who is he losing support from? Not the conservatives. They were never on his side to begin with.

He's losing it from moderates and liberals, who are disappointed in what he has done (or not done). He seems to have been spending much too much time trying to appeal to conservatives, as if they would ever support him, at the expense of those who already do support him.

Building up in Afghanistan, not closing Gitmo, giving in too easily on health care, not getting rid of "don't ask don't tell" and so on...

He's done a lot I agree with, but a lot I disagree with as well, and that makes my support for him a lot less than it used to be.

Do you agree that this is the problem?
Obama's big problem, that dwarfs every other problem by a large factor is the economy. If/when the economy recovers, his popularity will recover with it. Among liberals, while there is some disappointment, I think his policies are still fairly well received, but the person in charge is going to be seen as responsible for the economy, and that is still far from a good area.
 

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
My point was that even if he did fix these things, the conservatives would still hate him. They hated him even before he was in office, and did not give him a chance from the beginning.
 

OxymoronP

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
795
Location
Heart in Brooklyn, body South of Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
OK, hear me out.

Obama's popularity has dropped quite a bit over the year. Now, of course, that happens to every President to some extent. In fact, Reagan's was about at the same level after his first year.

But who is he losing support from? Not the conservatives. They were never on his side to begin with.

He's losing it from moderates and liberals, who are disappointed in what he has done (or not done). He seems to have been spending much too much time trying to appeal to conservatives, as if they would ever support him, at the expense of those who already do support him.

Building up in Afghanistan, not closing Gitmo, giving in too easily on health care, not getting rid of "don't ask don't tell" and so on...

He's done a lot I agree with, but a lot I disagree with as well, and that makes my support for him a lot less than it used to be.

Do you agree that this is the problem?
1. The reason he won was because of center right folks tired of 8 years of Bush.

2. Playing to the Left means total defeat in 2010 and 2012.
 

Lightdemon

The Image b4 Transition
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
1,223
Location
beneath the surface
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
1. The reason he won was because of center right folks tired of 8 years of Bush.

2. Playing to the Left means total defeat in 2010 and 2012.

As far as blanket statements go, these two are fairly accurate, I think.
 

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
38,750
Reaction score
13,832
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
My point was that even if he did fix these things, the conservatives would still hate him. They hated him even before he was in office, and did not give him a chance from the beginning.
How is that "your point"? This thread is about why "moderates" and "liberals" are withdrawing their approval. These "hate him no matter what" conservatives are irrelevant to that.
 

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
How is that "your point"? This thread is about why "moderates" and "liberals" are withdrawing their approval. These "hate him no matter what" conservatives are irrelevant to that.
My point is that if he wants his poll numbers to go back up, he needs to get back the people who have left him: the liberals and moderates.

I really didn't think my point was that difficult to understand, honestly.
 

Charles Martel

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,668
Reaction score
268
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
He seems to have been spending much too much time trying to appeal to conservatives
With what the Stimulus bill, this health care wooly mommoth or bringing Gitmo terrorists to NY, which issue is he spending too much time trying to appeal to conservatives? What a colossal misread on your part. He's losing moderates and dems as he backtracks on the public option and misques abroad bowing to the wrong people, accepting awards he didn't deserve. His health care plan as well upsetting as many liberals as conservatives, his wishy washy ineptness in standing for the public option is costing him.

Building up in Afghanistan, not closing Gitmo, giving in too easily on health care, not getting rid of "don't ask don't tell" and so on...
Building up in Afghanistan was a campaign promise of his, not an appeal to conservatives. Not closing Gitmo is no appeal attempt, he never knew what to do when he promised it would be closed, that is obvious. HE gives in on health care because he simply didn't have the Dem votes. The public plan and abortion had to be removed...by Dems...in order for them to vote for it, there was no appealing to conservatives there or tort reform, interstate competition, and other Repub desires would tbe there. They ain't. Repub oppositoion has been solid and consistent, all the major "give in" was so that Dems would vote for it. Remember?

and that makes my support for him a lot less than it used to be.
You were hoodwinked and the wool pulled over your eyes, don't feel too badly. It was a multi-hindred million campaign, the richest in history. The charisma so overwhelming, he was such a teleprompter expert, I can easily see why so many were swayed. I told you what you were getting, you didn't want to listen to me.:roll:

Told you so!
 

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
He's losing moderates and dems as he backtracks on the public option and misques abroad bowing to the wrong people, accepting awards he didn't deserve. His health care plan as well upsetting as many liberals as conservatives, his wishy washy ineptness in standing for the public option is costing him.
I agree.

Building up in Afghanistan was a campaign promise of his, not an appeal to conservatives.
Yes and no. While it is true he said he wanted to go after al Queda in Afghanistan, liberal support for this dropped when it was proven that Afghanistan is a corrupt cesspool that is taking advantage of us. The current liberal view is that the facts changed, but Obama didn't.

Not closing Gitmo is no appeal attempt, he never knew what to do when he promised it would be closed, that is obvious. HE gives in on health care because he simply didn't have the Dem votes. The public plan and abortion had to be removed...by Dems...in order for them to vote for it, there was no appealing to conservatives there or tort reform, interstate competition, and other Repub desires would tbe there. They ain't. Repub oppositoion has been solid and consistent, all the major "give in" was so that Dems would vote for it. Remember?
And where was Obama in all of this? Where is his leadership saying "no" to the Blue Dogs? Why wasn't he pushing the Senate the same way Bush did to get his agenda passed? Liberals don't think he was pushing enough.


You were hoodwinked and the wool pulled over your eyes, don't feel too badly. It was a multi-hindred million campaign, the richest in history. The charisma so overwhelming, he was such a teleprompter expert, I can easily see why so many were swayed. I told you what you were getting, you didn't want to listen to me.:roll:

Told you so!
What are you, crazy? You think I would have preferred McCain and Palin? I have never agreed 100% with any politician. I find myself supporting Obama more than I did Clinton, for instance.

My post is simply this: If Obama wants his support to rise, appealing to conservatives is not the way to do it.
 

liblady

pirate lover
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
16,164
Reaction score
5,060
Location
St Thomas, VI
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
OK, hear me out.

Obama's popularity has dropped quite a bit over the year. Now, of course, that happens to every President to some extent. In fact, Reagan's was about at the same level after his first year.

But who is he losing support from? Not the conservatives. They were never on his side to begin with.

He's losing it from moderates and liberals, who are disappointed in what he has done (or not done). He seems to have been spending much too much time trying to appeal to conservatives, as if they would ever support him, at the expense of those who already do support him.

Building up in Afghanistan, not closing Gitmo, giving in too easily on health care, not getting rid of "don't ask don't tell" and so on...

He's done a lot I agree with, but a lot I disagree with as well, and that makes my support for him a lot less than it used to be.

Do you agree that this is the problem?
i do agree. he still has my support, however, as he navigates through the halls of hell.
 

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
38,750
Reaction score
13,832
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
My point is that if he wants his poll numbers to go back up, he needs to get back the people who have left him: the liberals and moderates.

I really didn't think my point was that difficult to understand, honestly.
No, you shifted your point, unless you think doing "those things" is synonymous with "being liberal." Or, at the very least, that fixing the economy, getting unemployment down, making a decision on Afghanistan, etc., is the same as ceasing to placate conservatives.

In which case, it opens a whole 'nother can of worms.
 

Ethereal

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
8,211
Reaction score
4,178
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
My point is that if he wants his poll numbers to go back up, he needs to get back the people who have left him: the liberals and moderates.

I really didn't think my point was that difficult to understand, honestly.
The US is a center-right nation. He's losing independents, centrists, and moderates because he's gone too far left, not because he hasn't gone far enough.
 

Groucho

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
933
Location
Pocono Mountains, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
No, you shifted your point, unless you think doing "those things" is synonymous with "being liberal." Or, at the very least, that fixing the economy, getting unemployment down, making a decision on Afghanistan, etc., is the same as ceasing to placate conservatives.

In which case, it opens a whole 'nother can of worms.

Man! I am coming to the conclusion that your debate technique consists of taking whatever someone says and then completely ignoring it and arguing something completely different, pretending the person said that instead, and then complaining when they don't answer to your rewrite.

You really think that's effective? I was right to ignore you in that other thread, and I'm going to start doing that a lot as long as you continue to do this.
 

Missouri Mule

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
1,406
Reaction score
48
Location
Hot Springs, Arkansas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
He has staked his presidency almost totally on this ill-advised medical health care plan. He could have had bi-partisan support if he had included only two things in the bill. 1) Interstate competition of insurance companies, 2) Tort Reform. I would add transparency in billing as a desirable third attribute because no one knows what anything costs today.

Most Republicans/Conservatives would go along with his policies in Iraq and Afghanistan if he carries through to a successful conclusion. Personally, I am torn with the idea of sacrificing more American lives in a failed state where most of the population is illiterate and only know how to recite something verbatim having no real intellectual understanding as one would find in either Iraq or Iran; both worth whatever is required.

I totally disagree with his policy toward the economy. Throwing money at special interests with no real tangible results is nuttiness in my view. It is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that tax cuts and cuts in government spending causing massive national deficits will spur the economy. He should have immediately suspended the payroll tax for two years which would have put money in the pockets of Americans who would have immediately spent it in the economy. Instead we have "New Deal II" which didn't work in the 1930s and the economy only recovered as a result of WWII.

Tax cuts work every time. The more money WE have, the more we spend. That goes into the general economy and is multiplied many times over. Government spending targeted to such crooked outfits as ACORN is just political patronage and insulting to anyone's intelligence.

But the big enchilada will be if we have another successful terrorist attack on the homeland of the United States. That will sink his presidency and if large enough will result in a military dictatorship.
 

Ethereal

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
8,211
Reaction score
4,178
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Man! I am coming to the conclusion that your debate technique consists of taking whatever someone says and then completely ignoring it and arguing something completely different, pretending the person said that instead, and then complaining when they don't answer to your rewrite.

You really think that's effective? I was right to ignore you in that other thread, and I'm going to start doing that a lot as long as you continue to do this.
Speaking of the other thread, were you planning on citing the militia reference you claimed was in Miller?

:2wave:
 

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
38,750
Reaction score
13,832
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Man! I am coming to the conclusion that your debate technique consists of taking whatever someone says and then completely ignoring it and arguing something completely different, pretending the person said that instead
You said "those things." Those were the "things." If you meant something else, then you should have specified. I can't help your sloppy language -- or what I suspect is sloppy reading.

Now, going back to your OP, and the "things" you posted there he's supposedly doing to placate "conservatives," well, to a one, he's doing what polls consistently show a majority want done. If he didn't do them, he'd be playing to the liberal minority. How would that help his overall popularity? How would it help him with moderates?


and then complaining when they don't answer to your rewrite.
When did I do that? I think you have me confused with someone else.


You really think that's effective? I was right to ignore you in that other thread, and I'm going to start doing that a lot as long as you continue to do this.
Which other thread? The discussion of the Second Amendment where I corrected your many glaring misstatements? Or the thread in which you made blanket comparisons between the extreme views of al Qaeda and the views of American conservatives, yet refused to accept the same degree of comparison between al Qaeda's extreme views on Israel and that of American liberals?

Which one are you referring to?

Besides, I have to laugh out loud reading this from you, considering how many times you misrepresented what I wrote.

But, whatever; if that's going to be your binky-blanket excuse to avoid challenges on what you say, then I guess that's that.
 

Charles Martel

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,668
Reaction score
268
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
No you don't, you just claimed he was spending too much time appealing to Repubs, its the moderates and Dems he's trying to appeal to.

The current liberal view is that the facts changed, but Obama didn't.
So, the current liberal view is that the candidate of hope and change..didn't, the facts did?:mrgreen::roll:;)

Why wasn't he pushing the Senate the same way Bush did to get his agenda passed?
Because Bush was pushing the opposite party. Tax cuts, the two wars, all supported by Dems. Obama is trying to push Dems, remember he tried to stuff health care in before last august, went up on national TV to give a speech and got sidetracked by a story about the Cambridge Mass. Police, we came out knowing much more about that affair than we did his health care plan. He wasn't trying to push these Dems as he figured like his stimulus and omnibus spending measures, he'd just walk in there and smile and all would be well. Wasn't that why we didn't get the Olympics, rather than pushing those people for the Us, he and Michelle went and told stories about themselves, he used the word "I" countless times during the speech. His ego a tad large and he didn't think he had to push Dems. Today...he went to both chambers. Yerstermonth, he called for a joint session of Congress(last one called was after 9-11), he did push this thing. It's a terrible idea and a budget buster, THAT is the problem...Groucho.

What are you, crazy?
No, you are. I told you for months on ws that Obama was an empty suit, told you countless times he was an absolute circus clown. That you're just now beginning to figure that out, don't blame me. I did tell you so.:cool:

If Obama wants his support to rise, appealing to conservatives is not the way to do it.
Funny...through all the years of you telling us Repubs that if we EVER wanted to govern again..or get back our Party...we'df have to become more inclusive. Drop our more conservative platforms. There were those on Whistlestopper...like you...who doubted or found it difficult to see a Repub ever getting back into office. Here we are, a mere year later, and your complaining Obama is trying to appeal to we same Repubs who had no voice but months ago.

Not the same here...Grouncho? Not the same philosophy?.....that inclusion of the Repubs is not the answer here while there, you advised the Repubs to appeal more to Dems with our platform? Remember that?

What a joke!! I :applaud your hypocrisy.

BTW, said hello to JD3 yet, he's joined us as well.
 
Last edited:

jackalope

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
1,328
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
My point is that if he wants his poll numbers to go back up, he needs to get back the people who have left him: the liberals and moderates.

I really didn't think my point was that difficult to understand, honestly.


He doesn't really seem to care what the left of his base thinks about him, IA.


But, do liberals and moderates want the same things? That point is debatable.
 

Charles Martel

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,668
Reaction score
268
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
He doesn't really seem to care what the left of his base thinks about him.
No, he knows he doesn't have to be accountable. He knows full well he'll have a Republican run against him in 2012 that he and you can demonize and you'll be right there like good sheep and vote for him. The Dem party never holds to account, he'll get up there, spout some teleprompter music, you'll all roll over like sheep do in front of any wolf and you'll finance this campaign to boot.

Please. Everyone of you leaning liberal in here are voting for Barack Obama in 2012. He knows that, I know that, you know that.
 
Top Bottom