Obama Defends Criticism of Cambridge Police in Arrest of Gates

metreon said:

It seems a bit of a stretch to arrest someone for disorderly conduct in their own home when that person exercises a legal right to verify the badge number of the police officer. Even if Gates was "uppity" about it, there is no law against being a jerk, since that right is protected by the 1st Amendment, especially in the privacy of one's own home.

The presented facts are that when Gates let the police into his home, he did show them a couple of ID cards, license and Harvard ID (he lives in a Harvard house). Case closed. Unless there was a physical assault by Gates there would have been zero reason to arrest him. The case was fully dropped because it had no legal basis to proceed. That is the fact of the matter. Therefore the police officer acted stupidly, by definition, since he had no just cause for arrest.

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So Gates isn't responsible for his own actions? He didn't have to behave that way. He could have defused the whole situation by simply acting like an educated, respectable, intellectual. Two wrongs don't make a right! Mr. Gates had a choice. He chose poorly.

Freedom comes with personal responsibility. Mr. Gates was not physically assaulted. He was in no danger. Had he acted in a calm, honorable manner. He would not have been arrested. If he felt he was wronged by the officer. He could have later filed a complaint. His reaction to the situation served no purpose other than to release his own anger and disgust.

I don't feel he should have been arrested. I also know that he did not act in an honorable and intelligent manner. He let his anger get the best of him. He needlessly escalated an already unfortunate situation. As smart as he is supposed to be. I would expect him to understand that.

P/N said:

Moderator's Warning:

Yes, another thread being de-railed and name calling ensues. Stay on topic, stop calling each other names and cease with the personal attacks.

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Is it alright if I personally attack Gates? Because the guy is a ****ing racist. People have no respect for cops, it's a shame. I wouldn't want their job.

celticlord said:

Link? Because this is the public statement of the department of which I am aware:

Where in that statement is there admission of mistake?

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The police department spokesperson said this...

In announcing that charges would be dropped Tuesday, police blamed both sides for escalating the conflict. "You had two human beings reacting to a set of circumstances and cooler heads did not prevail," said Cambridge police spokeswoman Kelly Downes.

"It was not Professor Gates' best moment and it was not the Cambridge Police Department's best moment."

"I think both parties were wrong. Our position is race did not play a factor."

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Right there.

nolle prosequi is not an admission of mistake, merely a decision not to pursue the matter. Technically, the door is still open to pursuing the charges should the DA change his mind in the matter--granted, it's highly improbable, but it is not impossible.

nolle prosequi (Anglo-American law) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

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I know what nolle prosequi is, I never said that it was an admission of mistake. I said this more than "just" the DA dropping the charges. It was the police department publicly stating they were equally wrong in this incident.

This is certainly not a case of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, but a person standing outside shouting that a cop is a racist would be pretty damn alarming, I would think.

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Well, I'm sure you would think that. I would probably think that as well. However police officers do not have the latitude to arrest people for crimes where there are no identifiable victims. He can't assume the public was alarmed, which he did, he has to prove someone in the public was actually alarmed.

Would the case stand up at trial? Perhaps.

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No, not at all. I have several friends in both county prosecutors offices where I live and we talk often. I specifically asked two assistant prosecutors what they thought and while they think Gates is a complete douche bag they also agree with me Crowley did a poor job documenting his case and they would never take it to trial. Simply because there wasn't enough documentation of the necessary facts.

If Gates had stood out on his front step for an extended period of time shouting racist accusations at Sgt Crowley, that would certainly be alarming to the public and would arguably be disturbing the peace.

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And the police would still be required to prove that someone in the public was actually alarmed. But please, let's not speculate on what crimes might have been charged if Gates had done this or that. Let's stick to what the report says, what the crime charged was, and the subsequent admission of wrong by the police department.

However, the reality of the situation is that, for whatever reason, Gates lost his temper. If DAs prosecuted every person who lost their temper in public there would never be time to try rapists and murderers. Gates is not a frequent flyer at the county jail--he lost his cool. Even if he were technically guilty of disturbing the peace, how much good would be accomplished by taking the case to court? Crowley could have done everything right, including arresting Gates, and the proper response by the department and the DA could still be entering a nolle prosequi. Frankly, I don't see where Crowley did anything wrong.

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Fair enough.

Neither you nor I were there, so how much more there is to the case is purely speculation for us. My speculation is that Crowley properly investigated a report of a break-in at Gates' residence, Gates' improperly lost his cool at being asked for his ID to show he lived in that residence--necessary for Crowley to establish that there had been no crime committed--and Gates went too far in expressing his displeasure. That much is speculation, I freely acknowledge.

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You are correct, we weren't there. I have formed my opinion based upon Crowley's report, the wording of the statute, and the subsequent actions of the DA and the police department.

However, this statement by Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert C. Haas to my mind suggests that my speculation is reasonably close to what those better informed agree took place:

If Crowley screwed up, why would Haas be going this far in taking up for him?

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Why would the police department also make this statement?

In announcing that charges would be dropped Tuesday, police blamed both sides for escalating the conflict. "You had two human beings reacting to a set of circumstances and cooler heads did not prevail," said Cambridge police spokeswoman Kelly Downes.

"It was not Professor Gates' best moment and it was not the Cambridge Police Department's best moment."

"I think both parties were wrong. Our position is race did not play a factor."

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Things that make you go "hmmmm."

Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

"CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A black police officer who was at Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s home when the black Harvard scholar was arrested says he fully supports how his white fellow officer handled the situation.

Sgt. Leon Lashley says Gates was probably tired and surprised when Sgt. James Crowley demanded identification from him as officers investigated a report of a burglary. Lashley says Gates' reaction to Crowley was "a little bit stranger than it should have been."

Asked if Gates should have been arrested, Lashley said supported Crowley "100 percent.""

I do not know if it matters to anyone but this officer was present and happens to be black.

After hearing him speak I am starting to think Gates may have been prepping for his moment in the spotlight for quite some time.

We should all hear tapes soon and will be able to make better informed decisions.

Tapes May Tell Tale In Harvard Arrest


"What we don't need is public safety officials across the country second-guessing themselves," Holway said. "The president's alienated public safety officers across the country with his comments."


Anytime one makes extreme speculation without having the information. Especially on a national platform...it is likely not going to be a good outcome.

I heard dear leaders polls just fell below the 50% level for approval..

akyron said:

After hearing him speak I am starting to think Gates may have been prepping for his moment in the spotlight for quite some time.

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I was wondering where some students got this line from:







Don't tase me, bro!








Do students learn things from professors or it is other way around?









What immature babies are - both Gates and Obama.

Lerxst said:

Why would the police department also make this statement?

Things that make you go "hmmmm."

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Note what the spokeswoman said:

"I think both parties were wrong. Our position is race did not play a factor."

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Like most spokespeople, she was speaking extemporaneously and probably flubbed the lines. As purely a public relations matter, she would have been on more solid ground if she had just stuck with the last sentence "Our position is race did not play a factor." Admitting any wrongdoing by Crowley is opening the door for a lawsuit. Given that the commissioner is backing Crowley, paving the way for litigation is a bad idea.

My personal take on that line is that she was trying to appear evenhanded and sympathetic to Gates, and flubbed it.

(Kinda like Gibbs pointing out that the union for the Cambridge PD backed McCain, but instead of putting the whole foot in the mouth she just put in two toes).

celticlord said:

Note what the spokeswoman said:
Like most spokespeople, she was speaking extemporaneously and probably flubbed the lines. As purely a public relations matter, she would have been on more solid ground if she had just stuck with the last sentence "Our position is race did not play a factor." Admitting any wrongdoing by Crowley is opening the door for a lawsuit. Given that the commissioner is backing Crowley, paving the way for litigation is a bad idea.

My personal take on that line is that she was trying to appear evenhanded and sympathetic to Gates, and flubbed it.

(Kinda like Gibbs pointing out that the union for the Cambridge PD backed McCain, but instead of putting the whole foot in the mouth she just put in two toes).

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So in other words, your answer is "she messed up what she was supposed to say."

Lol...okay.

Lerxst said:

So in other words, your answer is "she messed up what she was supposed to say."

Lol...okay.

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Think about it. If Crowley was wrong Gates has a lawsuit. What spokeswoman worth her salt is going to hand Gates a cause of action when her boss is sticking up for Crowley? Even if Haas weren't sticking up for Crowley, saying that Crowley was wrong is a bad PR move, because it gives Gates a cause of action for a lawsuit.

Given the circumstances, if you ran the Cambridge PD, would you want her saying "both sides were wrong"? Or just "Our position is that race was not a factor."?

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

WillRockwell said:

Obama spoke for an hour without teleprompters, answering questions on health care that would have baffled George Bush. In responding to the question about Gates, Obama rose to the defense of a friend. He lost his cool. It was a mistake for him to make a judgement.

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Translation: Obama is riled by race just as his mentor Rev. Wright is.
He is the president, called into question the judgment of others repeatedly, and in this instance (like so many others) showed he lacks it desperately himself.

It would have been so simple to keep mouth shut and wait for the facts to roll in. But no, the Resident of the United States couldn't show a little discipline and attacked an officer and police department.

Now that's Change.
Or is it Hope?
Unity anyone?

How about amateur hour.

ROTFLMAO... his rantings about health care would be great comedy if the matter weren't so serious. Is that a blue or red pill?

.

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

sam_w said:

Funny how the libertarians and the libertarian wing of the GOP are so silent about a guy who gets arrested in his own house. Oh forgot, they can use this to play the race card to stir up the inbreds down in Appalachia.

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Wow! We're talking about racism and you make an incredibly bigoted comment about tens of millions of people because they live in a certain part of the United States.

Liberals used to be the champions of the working poor. Now they're elitist and hateful and nasty. Sad.

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

disneydude said:

The man was falsely accused and treated poorly by the police, he had every right to be angry and every right to speak out.

The "crime" that he commited here was nothing more than "contempt of cop".
The cop should have simply admitted his mistake and walked away. Instead his ego got the best of him and he asked the man to step outside simply for the purpose of arresting him.

Bad cops should never be supported....it only encourages more bad cop behavior...and diminishes the service of the good officers that serve our communities daily.

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The neighbors had reported a break-in in progress. Officer Crowley was simply doing his job.

Maybe Gates was frustrated that the door was jammed as a result of the previous break-in, maybe he was tired from his trip, or it could be that he's a race baiting jerk.

Whatever his reason of excuse is...he had no business treating officer Crowley as if he was doing anything other than making sure the person who was in his home had a right to be in his home.

BTW, I carry a college ID myself. They do not list your home address on them. That was just a ploy to try to show the officer how important he was...just another thing on the list of stupid moves made by this self important victim of the hour.

Crowley did not behave the way a bad cop behaves. But Gates had no problem demonstrating how a jackass behaves.

Has anyone taken the time to note the statements made by Crowley's partner? Or is that to be ignored because it just doesn't jive with Obama's idiotic statement...and makes Gates look like the race baiting drama queen he really is?

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

bella-day said:

The neighbors had reported a break-in in progress. Officer Crowley was simply doing his job.

Maybe Gates was frustrated that the door was jammed as a result of the previous break-in, maybe he was tired from his trip, or it could be that he's a race baiting jerk.

Whatever his reason of excuse is...he had no business treating officer Crowley as if he was doing anything other than making sure the person who was in his home had a right to be in his home.

BTW, I carry a college ID myself. They do not list your home address on them. That was just a ploy to try to show the officer how important he was...just another thing on the list of stupid moves made by this self important victim of the hour.

Crowley did not behave the way a bad cop behaves. But Gates had no problem demonstrating how a jackass behaves.

Has anyone taken the time to note the statements made by Crowley's partner? Or is that to be ignored because it just doesn't jive with Obama's idiotic statement...and makes Gates look like the race baiting drama queen he really is?

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My guess is he's a product of the Obama/Sharpton/Wright/Jackson/Holder school of race relations and feels like one of the anointed ones, one of the untouchables.

The ones who will bring about unity in America.

.

celticlord said:

Think about it. If Crowley was wrong Gates has a lawsuit. What spokeswoman worth her salt is going to hand Gates a cause of action when her boss is sticking up for Crowley? Even if Haas weren't sticking up for Crowley, saying that Crowley was wrong is a bad PR move, because it gives Gates a cause of action for a lawsuit.

Given the circumstances, if you ran the Cambridge PD, would you want her saying "both sides were wrong"? Or just "Our position is that race was not a factor."?

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CL, I understand that. My point is that the department admitted they were wrong. In more ways than one in that statement. She didn't flub her lines, she gave a statement to the media based upon conclusions the administration had already reached internally. But I agree, from a liability stand point specific to this case, she probably shouldn't have said those things.

However, from a public trust perspective, she did the correct thing. Law enforcement agencies have got to take steps to break the public's perception of the thin blue line.

But, to reiterate...I fully understand and appreciate your point.

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

bella-day said:

Crowley did not behave the way a bad cop behaves. But Gates had no problem demonstrating how a jackass behaves.

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No, Crowley behaved the way a pissed off, aggravated cop behaves when he's trying to teach an asshole a lesson.

Has anyone taken the time to note the statements made by Crowley's partner? Or is that to be ignored because it just doesn't jive with Obama's idiotic statement...and makes Gates look like the race baiting drama queen he really is?

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There was an entire thread dedicated to the officers comments. They are really not all that important because they simply reinforce Crowley's report. I have no issue with Crowley's description of Gates' behavior. I don't think Crowley lied. What Crowley did however was make a bad arrest. As has been explained numerous times in multiple threads, Crowley did a poor job of making his case. He reached way too far in order to take Gates to jail.

Was Gates a jerk? Without a doubt. I believe Crowley was doing his job just fine up until he decided to arrest Gates on a trumped up charge.

Cops are not out on the street to "teach people lessons." They are out on the street to enforce the laws of their jurisdiction. You arrest people when they actually commit a crime. Part of the process is documenting how the offender actually commits the crime and against who. Crowley failed in that regard.

I'm sure Crowley is a fine cop, he just ****ed up in this case.

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

Lerxst said:

No, Crowley behaved the way a pissed off, aggravated cop behaves when he's trying to teach an asshole a lesson.


There was an entire thread dedicated to the officers comments. They are really not all that important because they simply reinforce Crowley's report. I have no issue with Crowley's description of Gates' behavior. I don't think Crowley lied. What Crowley did however was make a bad arrest. As has been explained numerous times in multiple threads, Crowley did a poor job of making his case. He reached way too far in order to take Gates to jail.

Was Gates a jerk? Without a doubt. I believe Crowley was doing his job just fine up until he decided to arrest Gates on a trumped up charge.

Cops are not out on the street to "teach people lessons." They are out on the street to enforce the laws of their jurisdiction. You arrest people when they actually commit a crime. Part of the process is documenting how the offender actually commits the crime and against who. Crowley failed in that regard.

I'm sure Crowley is a fine cop, he just ****ed up in this case.

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Sorry, new to the forum. I didn't do a search of all threads that have been posted prior to my arrival before commenting.:doh

That would be a rather silly expectation of newcomers anyway.

If you feel Crowley failed in some regard...I say run with it. Maybe he overreacted; maybe he did not. I feel the reason the prosecutor decided to kick the charges out is not because they weren't unprovable...he most likely did not want to deal with the press and the screaming idiot that couldn't claim racism quick enough.

One thing about it Gates did succeed in making a complete ass of himself...Obama tossed the race card without having enough information to make a call but jumped on the chance to spew a little bigotry all his own while wagging his finger and lecturing the little people once again. He succeeded in showing everyone what an ass he can be...not to mention he doesn't have the cajones it takes to give a decent apology for the public knee jerk.

His comments were far from Presidential but then what else can be expected of the fool at this point?

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

bella-day said:

Sorry, new to the forum. I didn't do a search of all threads that have been posted prior to my arrival before commenting.:doh

That would be a rather silly expectation of newcomers anyway.

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I wasn't admonishing you to research all the threads, it's just the arguments were long and drawn out and I've not got the desire to repeat them. That's all.

If you feel Crowley failed in some regard...I say run with it. Maybe he overreacted; maybe he did not.

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Well, okay then I will run with it. :mrgreen:

I feel the reason the prosecutor decided to kick the charges out is not because they weren't unprovable...he most likely did not want to deal with the press and the screaming idiot that couldn't claim racism quick enough.

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And I obviously disagree, and that's okay.

One thing about it Gates did succeed in making a complete ass of himself...Obama tossed the race card without having enough information to make a call but jumped on the chance to spew a little bigotry all his own while wagging his finger and lecturing the little people once again. He succeeded in showing everyone what an ass he can be...not to mention he doesn't have the cajones it takes to give a decent apology for the public knee jerk.

His comments were far from Presidential but then what else can be expected of the fool at this point?

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I think it's pretty much the consensus all around (save a few diehards) that Obama ****ed this up big time.

Re: Obama Surprised by Controversy Over Remark About Arrest of Black Scholar

Lerxst said:

I wasn't admonishing you to research all the threads, it's just the arguments were long and drawn out and I've not got the desire to repeat them. That's all.

Well, okay then I will run with it. :mrgreen:

And I obviously disagree, and that's okay.


I think it's pretty much the consensus all around (save a few diehards) that Obama ****ed this up big time.

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I wasn't sure if you were admonishing me or not...but I was joking with you a bit. Where's that winking smiley when you need it huh? <need winking smiley here too>

:mrgreen: