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Obama and Economics: Intellectually Clueless

I read enough. It was wordy and self aggrandizing crap.

You know what they say about opinions!?!? Care to site the specific's which lead you to such a conclusion?

Then you have no problem showing data to prove it.

Only if you believe that im full of it.
 
President Obama, as most Democrats, fallow the Keynesian theory with respect to the economy, which try to stimulate the economy with increased government spending.

Supply side economics argue that lower taxes and less regulation will create economic growth, since tax cut cost will be offset by increase in tax revenue. If the 787 million stimulus program would has been used in tax cuts, the economy would be sizzling, and new business and employment created.

Larry Elder -- **** me!
 
What I love about the tax cuts create more in revenue than they cost argument is that they at least accept the stimulative effect of fiscal policy. Why could government spending also not produce enough economic activity to offset the cost with increased tax reciepts?

Other than it being wishful thinking (on both accounts), for them its because it involves the government.
 
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What I love about the tax cuts create more in revenue than they cost argument is that they at least accept the stimulative effect of fiscal policy. Why could government spending also not produce enough economic activity to offset the cost with increased tax reciepts?

Other than it being wishful thinking (on both accounts), for them its because it involves the government.
To be fair. Tax cuts don't create revenue per se, the idea is that two main things happen. 1) People hide less money and seek less loopholes since the perception is that the new rate is more agreeable and 2) Money in small businesses that was tied up in taxes is now freed up for expansion, because of that hiring is supposed to go up creating a larger tax base(kind of like having more people helping move a heavy object, the more people in the more efficient each effort would be for the same outcome or greater).
 
You know what they say about opinions!?!? Care to site the specific's which lead you to such a conclusion?
First off the application of linear logic to an economic study. If these guys are so freakin' brilliant they would know that economics do not function as a straight line. They argue that everything works on a static set of variables which is complete bull****. Next they used quite a few principles not related to each other. The best part of the psuedo-intellectual wankery was the open ended theoretical language designed to make the theory correct no matter the outcome based upon technicality. Other than that I'm sure the piece makes for a great tea cozy.


Only if you believe that im full of it.
Never implied that. You are stating an average but not giving parameters.
 
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First off the application of linear logic to an economic study. If these guys are so freakin' brilliant they would know that economics do not function as a straight line. They argue that everything works on a static set of variables which is complete bull****. Next they used quite a few principles not related to each other. The best part of the pseudo-intellectual wankery was the open ended theoretical language designed to make the theory correct no matter the outcome based upon technicality. Other than that I'm sure the piece makes for a great tea cozy.

The point was made, and has yet to be refuted (now you attack my source). Consumption smoothing in high income/high wealth households is more easily obtainable than low income households. You can try and claim otherwise, but this is an undeniable fact and destroys your previous statement pertaining to the wealthy tightening their belts more so than middle and low income households.

Never implied that. You are stating an average but not giving parameters.

I must admit, i've been stringing you along because i (wrongly) assumed you were familiar with Hauser's Law. I am however fairly certain you can locate the data sets yourself just to make sure it's not a, as you put it, "pseudo-intellectual wankery".
 
The wealthy are usually small businesses that hire dependant on budget...

Sorry, I have to disagree with both of those ideas. Very few small business people are wealthy. I know, I am one, and and talk to others every day. Very few of us are rich. the other issue is that small businesses hiring depends on demand for their products - it has nothing to do with budget. If we gave tax breaks to small businesses, they wouldn't hire more people, they only hire more people when demand for their product grows.
 
Sorry, I have to disagree with both of those ideas. Very few small business people are wealthy.
Because they usually tie their own incomes in with that of the business.
I know, I am one, and and talk to others every day.
And I have personal anecdotes as well that differ greatly from yours. Doesn't negate the point.
Very few of us are rich.
And again, multiple small company owners here are filthy rich.
the other issue is that small businesses hiring depends on demand for their products - it has nothing to do with budget.
The **** it doesn't! If you need to grow and don't have capital you stagnate.
If we gave tax breaks to small businesses, they wouldn't hire more people, they only hire more people when demand for their product grows.
Which is dependent upon people having more disposable income from their own tax breaks. My point stands.
 
First off the income tax is punitive so many who can hide money in capital gains will do so, because that is less stable than pure income the money will likely be held in limbo as a leverage thing. If the money were as fluid as say, pure income it would get spent.There is always a coorelation. As well, even after the earnings are taxed purchases then have their own taxes, this leads to a wait and see approach to spending. It's not as simple as A and B make C. This is a fallacy. It requires one to believe that there is a finite amount of economic potential and was magically shifted towards a "class" of people. In capitalist economic models anyone has access to the supply of money if they have the desire, ideas, initiative and a little luck to get there. What they do with their money is really no one else's business as long as it's legitimate. In bulk, yes. In theory, yes. In reality, no. The middle class are not the largest hiring class, the wealthy are; as well the wealthy buy the big items that require the higher salaried workers, it all functions as one large mechanism with many cogs. If one cog fails the whole system will suffer. When the wealthier among us have no confidence in hiring or buying the chain breaks down, thus the middle class shrinks. This is not the function of tax breaks. Debt responsibility cannot be regulated, consumerism drives that but not necessarily because they were given more back in taxes. If nothing else the loss of taxes in income versus the very American desire to improve one's life are the culprit. If people knew how much they truly lost in taxes they'd hang their senators, that said the notion of being promoted but not gaining economic traction drives debt based consumerism IMHO. But not due to tax cuts, due to an uncertain market. Which has become that way due to uncertainty over regulatory expansion and tax cut sunsets. There is no market confidence and it's political.

Sorry, I disagree with most everything you posted.
 
The point was made, and has yet to be refuted (now you attack my source).
I told you exactly what's wrong with it, which you haven't refuted. The entire source uses faulty economic reasoning, not my fault.
Consumption smoothing in high income/high wealth households is more easily obtainable than low income households. You can try and claim otherwise, but this is an undeniable fact and destroys your previous statement pertaining to the wealthy tightening their belts more so than middle and low income households.
Which has nothing to do with the core argument whatsoever. Nice strawman.

I must admit, i've been stringing you along because i (wrongly) assumed you were familiar with Hauser's Law. I am however fairly certain you can locate the data sets yourself just to make sure it's not a, as you put it, "pseudo-intellectual wankery".
From your source.
In a May 20, 2008 editorial by David Ranson, the Wall St. Journal published a graph showing that even though the top marginal tax rate of federal income tax had varied between a low of 28% to a high of 91%, between 1950 and 2007, federal tax revenues had indeed constantly remained at about 19.5% of GDP.[3]
Again given ANY large enough data set any average can be created as desired. Considering a 57 year data set with a wild upswing the 19.5% is useless as an average. Statistical data fail anyone?
 
False. When the very wealthy have more disposable income they purchase more

So you REALLY believe that if Donald Trump, Bill Gates, or any other uber wealthy person was to gain one more dollar in income that he would spend ANY of it? The larger the income, the less one spends. There is eventually a point where the spending on each incremental dollar is zero. Bill Gates can already afford anything he wanted to purchase (for himself), if he wants a new car, he can already buy it, if he wants a new house he can already afford it.

The wealthy are usually small businesses that hire dependant on budget, when they have more money they tend to expand which means more workers hired.
Wrong, most small businesses owners are not rich, and hiring more workers is totally a function of demand, not income. As a small business owner, if I were to recieve a tax cut right now, I would NOT hire anyone because currently there is not enough demand for the products that I produce to justify hiring anyone else. However I may spend a little more money - and that may ultimately lead to employement.

, this leads to more tax payers meaning more people paying less money has a multiplying factor leading to more revenue. When the upper middle class keep more money they shop more, they dine out more, etc. meaning the middle and lower middle class make more.....more taxpayers and so on. There is no middle class exclusive tax break that will accomplish what a broad spectrum one will in growth, rather taxing the wealthy and super wealthy will have a negative effect in the short term.

Again, I disagree. Cutting taxes on people who tend to consume most of the income that they recieve will do much more to increase demand than to cut taxes on people who spend a very small percent of their income. Cutting the bottom tax rate by 5% would improve our economy much more than cutting the top tax rate by 5%. Sure, that may not feel "fair", but nothing in life is fair.
 
in fact, the bush tax cuts never did pay for themselves. in fact, bush 1 had to raise taxes after reagan cut them.


EXACTLY. Some people will argue over and over again that if you cut tax rates that government revenues will increase. That was DISPROVEN during the Reagan administration, yet some people claim that after the Reagan tax cut that the gov collected more in taxes. It didn't happen, thats a myth. Adjusted for inflation, government revenues dropped quit a bit after the Reagan tax cuts and it took 6 years of economic growth fueled by an excellerated rate of government spending before tax revenues recovered to pre-tax cut levels.
 
I don't think deficit spending works for the economy whether its a stimulus plan or tax cuts.

It worked during the Reagan years, it worked during the early '40's to pull us out of the great depression.


I think the best policy is to balance the budget which will reduce inflation and preserve a strong currency. I think tax cuts, personally, are just money out the door, and I also think the stimulus plan is the same. They don't help the economy significantly, but they add to the deficit.

Inflation doesn't seem to be an issue right now. Our inflation rate has been virtualy zero for a couple of years. I am all with you on the balanced budget thing, at least after the recession is over.
 
I told you exactly what's wrong with it, which you haven't refuted. The entire source uses faulty economic reasoning, not my fault. Which has nothing to do with the core argument whatsoever. Nice strawman.

From your source. Again given ANY large enough data set any average can be created as desired. Considering a 57 year data set with a wild upswing the 19.5% is useless as an average. Statistical data fail anyone?

So your refutation to published (and highly recognized) peer reviewed papers and statistical phenomena is, "i don't agree with the logic, so it must be incorrect". Sorry, that does not cut it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, but consumption smoothing was the central theme when discussing "belt tightening".
 
So your refutation to published (and highly recognized) peer reviewed papers and statistical phenomena is, "i don't agree with the logic, so it must be incorrect". Sorry, that does not cut it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, but consumption smoothing was the central theme when discussing "belt tightening".
I told you what's wrong with your source. Not my problem you aren't following the argument.
 
The people are starting to question the stimulus packaged due to the fact that it isn’t stimulating the economy to grow. Common sense prevails over ideology, creation of more government jobs don’t help, they don't produce real value, it will burden the rest of the people with more taxes and made the recovery more difficult.
 
Braap! Wrong answer. Welcome to your next educational experience!

Broken Window Fallacy video by Truff_Pix - Photobucket

What does a 6th grade video about a bakers broken window have to do with the government spending that ended the great depression? The simple fact is that it DID work during the Reagan years, and it DID work during WW2. You can watch elementry school videos all you want, but I would rather accept historical fact.

It is quite easy to see the flaws and incorrect assumptions of the video comparing a village baker with the government, different situation, different results.
 
The people are starting to question the stimulus packaged due to the fact that it isn’t stimulating the economy to grow. Common sense prevails over ideology, creation of more government jobs don’t help, they don't produce real value, it will burden the rest of the people with more taxes and made the recovery more difficult.


Here's the thing about the spendulous bill, it was never intended to stimulate the economy. The people who wrote it knew that, the people who voted for it either knew it or should have knew it. The spendulous bill was not a jobs bill, it did not create government or private jobs. Yes, it was a terrible bill.

But that does not mean that the government cannot stimulate the economy. Just because I invest in a particular stock and that stock goes down does not mean that stocks are bad investments. It just means that I made a poor choice.
 
Because they usually tie their own incomes in with that of the business. And I have personal anecdotes as well that differ greatly from yours. Doesn't negate the point. And again, multiple small company owners here are filthy rich. The **** it doesn't! If you need to grow and don't have capital you stagnate. Which is dependent upon people having more disposable income from their own tax breaks. My point stands.

You are making some assumptions that during one set of economic times may be fine and correct, but not neccesarally during our current times.

My business is down about 40% over a couple of years ago. In my particular industry in this particular economy, at this particular point in time, it would be a huge mistake for me to expand. I dont need any money to hire additional employess, I have all the employees that my company has demand for. If I were to obtain more money I WOULD NOT hire more employees at this particular time, because I don't need anymore employees. Why in the world would I hire more people when all they would be doing is sitting around (because there is not enough demand for my products to keep additional employees working).
 
What does a 6th grade video about a bakers broken window have to do with the government spending that ended the great depression? The simple fact is that it DID work during the Reagan years, and it DID work during WW2. You can watch elementry school videos all you want, but I would rather accept historical fact.

It is quite easy to see the flaws and incorrect assumptions of the video comparing a village baker with the government, different situation, different results.

Well apparently I need a 4th grade version to get through to you and help you understand it does not work. Temporary government jobs do nothing - growth has to happen in the private sector. Reagan promoted tax cuts in 1981 but did not curb spending to pay for it. Voodoo economics didn't quite work out the way it did on paper. The Tax cuts were fine... the spending not so much and the deficit not so much, hence dipping into Social Security to pay for the tax cuts. Reagan's economic plan is nothing like Obama's. Obama is attempting to fund public sector jobs in hopes it will jump start the private sector - which it's not; the direct opposite is occuring. You're comparison is either ignorant or seriously flawed.

What part of WW2 did what work again? :roll:
 
Well apparently I need a 4th grade version to get through to you and help you understand it does not work. Temporary government jobs do nothing - growth has to happen in the private sector. Reagan promoted tax cuts in 1981 but did not curb spending to pay for it. Voodoo economics didn't quite work out the way it did on paper. The Tax cuts were fine... the spending not so much and the deficit not so much, hence dipping into Social Security to pay for the tax cuts. Reagan's economic plan is nothing like Obama's. Obama is attempting to fund public sector jobs in hopes it will jump start the private sector - which it's not; the direct opposite is occuring. You're comparison is either ignorant or seriously flawed.

What part of WW2 did what work again? :roll:

Reagan significantly boosted (deficit) spending and we had 6 years of economic growth. During WW2 government spending was significantly increased and our economy was lifted out of the Great Depression.

Your right, what Obama has been doing is not particulary helpful. I am not defending Obama's style of spending. But increased government spending HAS been historically proven to help out a poor economy - you can't argue with history.
 
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