NYC Community Board OKs Ground Zero Mosque Plans

[TacticalEvilDan]

I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you and don't think I ever will, but I can at least understand what you're saying.


If New York City had gotten off its ass and seen to it that something was built on ground zero sometime in the past decade, I might have some more sympathy for that perspective.

Since nothing has been built there, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Smoking holes in the ground don't get special consideration.

 

[Arcana XV]

You seem to care enough to weigh in from Switzerland on an issue many Americans find offensive and inappropriate. So, which is it...don't care / do care?

None of my American friends nor my American boyfriend find this offensive. Let's just say I find the reasons why people find it offensive intriguing, or else I wouldn't be participating in this thread at all. :shrug: As for my geographical location, I don't see why that matters. I don't see anyone getting on anyone's case when they give their opinion on the recent events involving Israel regardless of where in the world they might be posting from.

 

[Zyphlin]

I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you and don't think I ever will, but I can at least understand what you're saying.

If New York City had gotten off its ass and seen to it that something was built on ground zero sometime in the past decade, I might have some more sympathy for that perspective.

Since nothing has been built there, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Smoking holes in the ground don't get special consideration.

I get what you're saying as well...

The thing is, at least from me (I won't speak for others cause I disagree with them on some of it), I don't WANT it to be given special consideration. Not from the country, state, or city government nor from the people.

What I mean by this?

I don't want it given special consideration, having the city turn down the purchase of the land or the attempt to build the mosque simply because it will offend some people when by all accounts its entirely and completely legal for it to be built.

I also don't think that people shouldn't be free to express their outrage, picket it, protest it, condemn it, and do anything else they would be free to do if any offensive object or place was erected in a persons city simply because the mosque is built by Muslims and therefore anyone criticizing it should instantly be labeled as bigoted racists that think all Muslims are terrorists and thus should be silenced.

And I don't even think these people SHOULDN'T do it if they want to. What I'm saying is I think that they shouldn't even WANT to based on the situation if they had any tact. And when they either blatantly and boldly lie to peoples faces with the bull**** "Building Bridges" excuse, or they show that they're complete idiots with no comprehension at all to what that day meant to a large amount of Americans, then like you with New York I can't have much sympathy for them when the obvious and reasonable outrage begins to be expressed.

 

[Arcana XV]

As I said in an earlier post...

When I hear the word "Islam" I don't think "Terrorist" or have hateful emotions as my immediate response.

When I hear the word "World Trade Center" I don't instantly think "terrorists" or have hateful emotions as my immediate response.

When I hear the word "World Trade Center and Islam" I do tend to immediately have my mind jump to the terrorists that perpetrated 9/11 and the hateful emotions that were present on that day are immediately entering my mind

Switch the word "Islam" with "Box Cutters" and you'll likely get a similar reaction from me. Switch the word "Islam" with "hijackers" and you'd likely get a similar reaction from me. Switch the word "Islam" with the word "airplanes" and you'd likely get a similar reaction from me. Why? Because all four of those things...box cutters, airplanes, hijackers, and Islam...were directly related to those that perpetrated the attack on the place that is being referenced with those words...thus immediately bringing back the feelings that I associated with that time in regards to my feeling about the attackers.

My opinion would be the exact same if they were building a monument on WTC's foundations of a giant box cutter or an airplane sculpture pointed towards the buildings. Are all box cutters evil? No. Are all airplanes evil? No. Were they unquestionably intertwined with what happened that day and able to be fully removed from the very fabric of how that day happened? No. So is it unreasonable that seeing something that is completely and utterly tied up in HOW the attack happened at the place of WHERE the attack happened brings forth emotions and reactions similar to what one feels when thinking about those attackers? No. Is it unreasonable to not want, but not think it should be made illegal for it to happen, something placed in that area that is going to instill that kind of reaction and that kind of negative emotions to a large amount of the population that will be visiting the place? No, I don't think so.

And I disagree with your assertion. Its impossible to remove Islam from the reason 9/11 happened. Absolutely, unquestionably, impossible. Even if you argue "There were political issues", those very political issues come about due to their faith in the religion. The U.S.'s backing of Israel? Disliked because Israel is, one, infidels, and two...and more importantly...on land that they believe to be holy and should be in the control of their people. The U.S. being involved in the Middle East? Again, while political, the basis for their political outrage comes about primarily due to their religious beliefs regarding the west and regarding their land. The religion is interconnected and at the basis of almost every single possible explanation you can give for the attacks these peoples religion was centered around it. The sad attempt to paint this as something areligious but political, akin to the OKC Bombing where you had a guy who happened to be Christian bombed a place for entirely political reasons that had nothing to do with Christian foundations (hell, he was protesting an attack on a Cult...something disliked by Christians), is laughable in its ignorance or dishonesty.

The Religion deeply was instrumental in the reasons for the feelings and attitudes towards the United States by the man that ran the organization, that is in and of itself deeply tied within the religious extremism, that recruited these men to perform an attack that was felt was needed for at least a large part religious reasons (either directly on indirectly) and conducted in such a way as to highlight their faith in the suicidal nature of said mission.

Was religion the only reason? No. But it was a large reason, and was interwoven into the vast majority of the secondary reasons as well be they political, personal, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand your position. Although I think the problem is not so much with Islam, but with extremist radical Islam. The people involved in the Cordoba House project don't sound like radicals to me. They sound like the exact opposite in fact. They're the kind of moderate, open-minded Muslims everyone's always saying the world needs more of. I still don't think they meant to be offensive or disrespectful in any way.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I get what you're saying as well...

The thing is, at least from me (I won't speak for others cause I disagree with them on some of it), I don't WANT it to be given special consideration. Not from the country, state, or city government nor from the people.

What I mean by this?

I don't want it given special consideration, having the city turn down the purchase of the land or the attempt to build the mosque simply because it will offend some people when by all accounts its entirely and completely legal for it to be built.

I also don't think that people shouldn't be free to express their outrage, picket it, protest it, condemn it, and do anything else they would be free to do if any offensive object or place was erected in a persons city simply because the mosque is built by Muslims and therefore anyone criticizing it should instantly be labeled as bigoted racists that think all Muslims are terrorists and thus should be silenced.

And I don't even think these people SHOULDN'T do it if they want to.

With you so far.

What I'm saying is I think that they shouldn't even WANT to based on the situation if they had any tact. And when they either blatantly and boldly lie to peoples faces with the bull**** "Building Bridges" excuse, or they show that they're complete idiots with no comprehension at all to what that day meant to a large amount of Americans, then like you with New York I can't have much sympathy for them when the obvious and reasonable outrage begins to be expressed.

I don't think it's a lack of tact or ignorance. I think they genuinely don't believe that their particular religion is to blame in any way for what happened, and wish others to see it their way.

I also haven't see any evidence that they're lying about their intentions.

 

[Cold Highway]

If New York City had gotten off its ass and seen to it that something was built on ground zero sometime in the past decade, I might have some more sympathy for that perspective.

Sadly this is going to be the state of ground zero for years to come. Nobody in the state wants to get off their ass and do anything.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Sadly this is going to be the state of ground zero for years to come. Nobody in the state wants to get off their ass and do anything.

I need to modify my statement.

I've heard of various plans for developing it or memorializing it, both with public funds and private funds. It sounds like it's not so much that nobody wants to do do anything, more like none of the powers that be can agree on what to do because that piece of ground is so politically charged.

Nevertheless, I'm fed up enough with the status quo that I don't give a damn whether people have a problem with a mosque being built nearby or not. We've had almost a decade of dog-in-the-manger political crap flying around that hole in the ground, and I'm done giving a damn about how people feel about it or what happened there.

 

[ScottD]

I personally want to see them rebuild the actual WTC at ground zero, kind of as a F*** YOU, WE'RE STILL HERE to the bastards who attacked us.

 

[Gardener]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand your position. Although I think the problem is not so much with Islam, but with extremist radical Islam. The people involved in the Cordoba House project don't sound like radicals to me. They sound like the exact opposite in fact. They're the kind of moderate, open-minded Muslims everyone's always saying the world needs more of. I still don't think they meant to be offensive or disrespectful in any way.

They SOUND the opposite, true, but their choice of location does send up a warning flag since the pattern of Muslim supremacists is most certainly to build symbolic structures at the ruins of buildings seen as symbolic to those they have conquered.

I'm not sure if you are noticing the symbolism here.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

They SOUND the opposite, true, but their choice of location does send up a warning flag since the pattern of Muslim supremacists is most certainly to build symbolic structures at the ruins of buildings seen as symbolic to those they have conquered.

I'm not sure if you are noticing the symbolism here.

Does anybody have any, you know, evidence that the motives of the individuals involved would be anything other than what they've represented?

 

[webrockk]

Does anybody have any, you know, evidence that the motives of the individuals involved would be anything other than what they've represented?

FWIW, I run two successful businesses purely on gut instincts, common sense, an ability to read between the lines, and properly dissiminate information presented.

My methods have proven to be far superior to blindly following limp wristed, agenda backed, apologist mentality.

 

[Zyphlin]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand your position. Although I think the problem is not so much with Islam, but with extremist radical Islam. The people involved in the Cordoba House project don't sound like radicals to me. They sound like the exact opposite in fact. They're the kind of moderate, open-minded Muslims everyone's always saying the world needs more of. I still don't think they meant to be offensive or disrespectful in any way.

And they most likely aren't radicals. They may likely be great people. They could very well be wonderful moderates that potentially COULD open a bridge up to a lot of New Yorkers and tourists. It wouldn't surprise me. I was just at a small local town fair here where I live that tends to have a lot of local business and groups having booths and one of them was sponsored by a local group or mosque had a booth of "Muslims for Peace" that I ended up and going and speaking with that were very nice and did a good job of talking to people about their religion, condemning the violence, and putting on a very good face for Islam.

These are good things. I do not believe the religion is evil to its core, and while I do think that due to the historically lagging society in the middle east we're seeing it "mature" slower than its 2 sister religions I do think it will continue down that path over time as more and more people move away from the more extreme or fundamental way of following or viewing it.

My issue is that if building bridges is REALLY their hope...they should see this reaction, primarily from the people they need to build the bridges too...and act on it. You want to show you're sincere about building bridges? Seek out another plot of land that's not pretty much where some of the buildings collapsed, but relatively close, and do it there. You're still close enough to that area where anyone wanting to visit definitely can (and its not like they don't have enough publicity now that people won't know about them, and its not like walking a few blocks is unusual for New York tourists) and more than that you're actually show you ARE trying to build bridges and be respectful to peoples emotions in regards to one of the most tragic days of this countries existence.

At this point, there'd probably be no way that I'd go in the place once the new building is in place and I go to visit for essentially a personal memorial to 9/11 (Something I did within the first few months following it). If they had said "wow, we see this is important to people and while we do not believe Islam is to blame we understand the discomfort of having such a visible reminder of something directly tied to the people who did this present right at the site. It is our hope to build bridges and show people that Islam is not represented by those 20 men and their extreme and reprehensible backers but by the millions of reasonable muslim's around the world. We are going to attempt to relocate our center a number of blocks away, out of respect for those that would feel more comfortable without such a reminder so close but close enough that we hope you come and learn why we too are saddened for the losses that day and what Islam means to those of us who condemn such atrocities"....then it would've been without question planned for my next stop into New York.

They want to build bridges? A person like me is their prime target. Someone that doesn't think every muslim is a terrorist, that doesn't view Islam as "evil", but whose opinion of the religion was shaken greatly during those attacks and in their wake, and who despite rational thinking still harbors those twinges of emotion when seeing them or hearing about the religion due to the fact that so much of what we hear and see coming from the muslim world is things like the bombings, the threatening of cartoonist, the calls for the end of Israel and not peace amongst religions, condemnation of terrorists, and respect of other cultures. They come out with a statement and an act like I put above and they would have me already won over to at least the point where I'd be completely open to their message and anxious to visit their location.

Instead, they've turned me off from them even greater now and assured that I will never visit their location.

Which of those things sounds more like "Building bridges"?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I see this:

FWIW, I run two successful businesses purely on gut instincts, common sense, an ability to read between the lines, and properly dissiminate information presented.

My methods have proven to be far superior to blindly following limp wristed, agenda backed, apologist mentality.

... and read this:

blah blah blah irrelevant **** blah blah blah half-assed insult blah blah blah up yours

TED,
Who is not limp of anything, not an apologist for anybody, and figures anybody who thinks otherwise can kiss his ass.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Which of those things sounds more like "Building bridges"?

It sounds to me like their chief offense is that of being stubborn, and perhaps a healthy dost of hubris.

A lot of us are guilty of that.

In the end, the bridges they will build will be with the unoffended and curious. They won't reach the angry, that segment of the population they most need to reach.

 

[Zyphlin]

I don't think it's a lack of tact or ignorance. I think they genuinely don't believe that their particular religion is to blame in any way for what happened, and wish others to see it their way.

I can wish for a million dollars, if I expect it to just happen I'm ignorant or stupid. They can wish for others not to see it the way many do, but its not going to happen magically from wishing and actions like they're taking aren't going to help it either.

When I use ignorant in this case I'm actually not necessarily speaking of "ignorant = stupid". It could very well be that they are literally IGNORANT of what many Americans think and feel, as in they do not have the knowledge to know it or to be able to empathize and grasp it.

I also haven't see any evidence that they're lying about their intentions.

For me its a matter of logic that only 1 of 4 things could possibly be true.

1. They're absolutely oblivious. Somehow, someway, they've paid no attention to all the outrage, never told anyone about this prior to it that expressed any annoyance or outrage at it, never took a moment to think "how will people react", and basically went through the entire process completely insulated and with no outward thought and thus thinking they'll "build bridges".

2. They're ignorant to what many Americans think. If anyone they've talked to expressed outrage or anger over this, they figured it must be a minority type thing. They figure they know their religion isn't all extremists, so everyone else must think that. They think islam had nothing to do with 9/11 and it was all about politics and people, or that it had something to do with it but wasn't a cause for it, and everyone else must think that way so why would they care that a mosque is there. They think all the reports of people upset with it is just the media hyping it up. Essentially, they completely and utterly lack the empathy or knowledge of many Americans to understand how big of a tragedy this was to people and how much Islam is tied to it in the minds of many. As such they figure people will have no issue with the place and come and they'll "Build bridges".

3. They're stupid. The same issues as above, only instead of thinking everyone agrees with them or not realizing people who are complaining are a minority, they just figure that ultimately they'll all just come around and realize how great the place is and love it and that all these angry people will really be able to have a bridge built to them. Something I think unlikely, as I believe many are like me and the very nature of how this is being built and where basically assures I'll never go.

4. They're lying. The same issues as above, only they fully realize most of the people who have even a mildly negative reaction towards Islam in general following 9/11 will likely not want anything to do with the place and be amazingly upset, but realize that the notion of "building bridges" will make those that have no issue with Islam think they're sincere and essentially win them over as soldiers in the fight against those condemning the place.

That's the ONLY answers I can figure out.

It can't be that "Maybe they don't care, they just want their mosque there" because if that was the case it doesn't explain their notion of saying its there to "Build Bridges" because if that was their intent they SHOULD care, so stating they don't care assumes their either assumes their ambivalent/ignorant/stupid/lying.

 

[Zyphlin]

It sounds to me like their chief offense is that of being stubborn, and perhaps a healthy dost of hubris.

A lot of us are guilty of that.

Indeed. A lot of us aren't making a big public statement that our main purpose for building a 13 story building is to "Build bridges" with people.

In the end, the bridges they will build will be with the unoffended and curious. They won't reach the angry, that segment of the population they most need to reach.

Umm...

The Unoffended and the Curious are generally the people who already pretty much have a "Bridge" in regards to Islam because they're primarily the people who have no real issue with the religion, think the ONLY problem at all is a small minority of people taking an extremely fanatical approach, and never imagine without concrete evidence anything bad could ever be associated with it.

To put in Political Terms...it'd be like the Republicans starting an outreach campaign saying they want to "Build Bridges" with new voters who have a bad stereotype towards what Republicans stand for and their method of doing so ends up pissing off most democrats, independents, and libertarians. And then, after that, their "building bridges" statement is justified by saying the "unoffended and "Curious" will still participate in the campaign, with the majority of those that are speaking up as "unoffended" and "Curious" being upper to middle class, southern, male, Christians.

Its like...congratulations, you're "Building Bridges" to the people who were already happily walking back and forth with you already while further alienating all those that have had their bridge burned or in tatters for quite some time now. You did good!

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

It just occurred to me, after reading your list, that there's another possibility.

If they're not militant sympathizers and they've been accused of being terrorists of militant sympathizers by virtue of their religious affiliation, perhaps they chose the location based on the knowledge that the people who thusly accused them would be enraged at their choice.

The thumbing of the nose is, after all, a very (not to be confused with exclusively) American thing to do. :lol:

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Its like...congratulations, you're "Building Bridges" to the people who were already happily walking back and forth with you already while further alienating all those that have had their bridge burned or in tatters for quite some time now. You did good!

Yeah, I know, it'd be like any talk radio pundit claiming they're the last shining beacon of truth. They may believe it, or they may not, but in either case it ain't so.

 

[Zyphlin]

It just occurred to me, after reading your list, that there's another possibility.

If they're not militant sympathizers and they've been accused of being terrorists of militant sympathizers by virtue of their religious affiliation, perhaps they chose the location based on the knowledge that the people who thusly accused them would be enraged at their choice.

The thumbing of the nose is, after all, a very (not to be confused with exclusively) American thing to do. :lol:

Ah, my bad, I forgot the 5th option that I had mentioned earlier...

They're just dicks

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Hey, I can't help it if we were typing the same thing at the same time. :lol:

That said, for what it's worth, if I were in these folks' shoes, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing.

TED,
Dick.

 

[Zyphlin]

Yeah, I know, it'd be like any talk radio pundit claiming they're the last shining beacon of truth. They may believe it, or they may not, but in either case it ain't so.

No, its not really like that at all.

Its like a Conservative Radio Pundit claiming he's going to do a show where he says he's going to try and build bridges for people who don't agree with his political ideology....and his opening segment bad mouths Obama as a Socialist, Ron Paul as a nutjob, Joe Lieberman and John McCain's as the perfect example of why Moderates are ******s when it comes to politics, and says god love Ronald Reagan.

 

[Zyphlin]

Hey, I can't help it if we were typing the same thing at the same time. :lol:

That said, for what it's worth, if I were in these folks' shoes, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing.

TED,
Dick.

True, but then again, it goes back in part to the whole "lying" thing.

If your intention is HONESTLY to build bridges, you don't build it by being a dick.

 

[ScottD]

True, but then again, it goes back in part to the whole "lying" thing.

If your intention is HONESTLY to build bridges, you don't build it by being a dick.

They aren't being dicks, it's just that people are over-reacting about what should be a non-issue. I mean this community center will be 2 blocks away. That is like a world away in New York City.

 

[webrockk]

They aren't being dicks, it's just that people are over-reacting about what should be a non-issue. I mean this community center will be 2 blocks away. That is like a world away in New York City.

"A world away" from who? ... the innocent dead souls at ground zero... or their families and friends that live "2 blocks away" and will have a "shrine" to Islam built within spitting distance to constantly remind them of their loss?

Insulting at best....psyop warfare at worst.

 

[Zyphlin]

They aren't being dicks, it's just that people are over-reacting about what should be a non-issue. I mean this community center will be 2 blocks away. That is like a world away in New York City.

Here would be my question.

The land that they're building it on, was there previously a building there that was destroyed or ruined during 9/11? If yes, that's still essentially the site of the attack. If no, that its really 2 blocks away from the far reaches of the damage then that may change things. To my understanding, its 2 blocks from the direct place where the two main towers where which was the epicenter, not th extent, of the damaged area.