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Nuclear attack in Ukraine should spark ‘devastating’ Nato response, says Polish foreign minister

Questerr said:
You would have said the same thing in 1941.
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He would have been a Hitler apologist in the 1940s.
I believe that Ukraine had nuclear capabilities and willingly surrendered their nukes in exchange for promises of security from Russia. Seems that was a mistake. Putin (and some very misguided posters here) do not recognize territorial integrity-the right of a country to secure accepted borders. Unfortunately for the misguided Putin apologists here and for Putin himself, that’s not the way the world works. You can’t for any reason just invade and annex part or all of a sovereign nation with impunity.
 
Ethel2 said:
He would have been a Hitler apologist in the 1940s.
I believe that Ukraine had nuclear capabilities and willingly surrendered their nukes in exchange for promises of security from Russia. Seems that was a mistake. Putin (and some very misguided posters here) do not recognize territorial integrity-the right of a country to secure accepted borders. Unfortunately for the misguided Putin apologists here and for Putin himself, that’s not the way the world works. You can’t for any reason just invade and annex part or all of a sovereign nation with impunity.
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He's already an admitted apologist for Pinochet's brutal, repressively authoritarian regime. For some weird reason fascism appeals to him.
 
snakestretcher said:
He's already an admitted apologist for Pinochet's brutal, repressively authoritarian regime. For some weird reason fascism appeals to him.
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He praises Fransisco Franco too.

If this was 1941, he would be saying how it’s none of the US’s business what Japan does in China or Germany does in Russia and we shouldn’t antagonize either of them by cutting them off from trade or arming their opponents.
 
anatta said:
The referendums of the Ukraine oblasts are to join the Russian Federation. whether the west recognizes them or not.
That's enough of a cause for Putin to use a tactical nuke .. he doesnt have to sabotage pipelines - he can then claim Russia is being attacked. Nuclear brinksmanship is really easy to walk up to that fine line -walking it back is the touchy problem!

for years ths has been in the background but because of the rapid escalation by the west of this war,
and refusing to provide an "off-ramp" for Putin..here you go.. tiptoe time..
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Russia invaded Ukraine. There is no "rapid escalation by the west". Your attempt to blame the west for Russia's invasion is totally stupid, counter factual Russian propaganda.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
There has been no new nations admitted to NATO since the war.
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Sweden and Finland are expected to be new NATO members by this Christmas

EMNofSeattle said:
In any event Finland doesn’t have any capacity for offensive actions into Russia, like Ukraine did and it is distant from Moscow.
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That still doesn't change the fact Russia now has another NATO nation on its border.
 
anatta said:
The referendums of the Ukraine oblasts are to join the Russian Federation. whether the west recognizes them or not.
That's enough of a cause for Putin to use a tactical nuke .. he doesnt have to sabotage pipelines - he can then claim Russia is being attacked. Nuclear brinksmanship is really easy to walk up to that fine line -walking it back is the touchy problem!

for years ths has been in the background but because of the rapid escalation by the west of this war,
and refusing to provide an "off-ramp" for Putin..here you go.. tiptoe time..
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Russia invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine did not invade Russia.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Why? Why should the US commit to nuclear retaliation against Russia for Ukriane’s sake? What’s in it for us?

This is hypothetical anyway since this is the Poles making noise, which is one reason why NATO expansion was a bad idea, we’re committing to the security of warmongers who want war with Russia and only talk so boldly because they wager the US is behind them.
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Oh, Hi EMNofSeattle. Haven't seen you in the main Ukraine thread since Russia got its ass handed to it in the Kharkiv region.
 
Allan said:
On the weekend we heard that Biden had delivered a strong message to Putin as to what the response would be should Russia attack Ukraine with nuclear weapons. Now thanks to the Polish Foreign Minister we know what that message was - full NATO response, short of a nuclear attack.

Link

The wrinkle in this approach is that Putin has previously said that he would use nukes if he felt that Russian survival was threatened. A NATO attack might be what pushes him to launch. This is a very tricky brinkmanship exercise going on here.
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Ukraine is not in NATO
 
Gatsby said:
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and stop escalating. On the NATO side, there's no need for this kind of dick-measuring. We are already winning. Just continue doing what we have been doing: Arm Ukraine with the types of weapons we have been giving them, privately warn Russia about using nukes, and mostly just ignore their nuclear threats publicly aside from pro forma denunciations.

Don't concede an inch to Putin on the subject of Ukraine, but also don't ratchet up the nuclear rhetoric. A nuclear miscalculation would be devastating for the entire world.
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NATO isn't involved in "dick measuring". They are reacting to direct threats made by the Russians.
 
Allan said:
On the weekend we heard that Biden had delivered a strong message to Putin as to what the response would be should Russia attack Ukraine with nuclear weapons. Now thanks to the Polish Foreign Minister we know what that message was - full NATO response, short of a nuclear attack.





Link

The wrinkle in this approach is that Putin has previously said that he would use nukes if he felt that Russian survival was threatened. A NATO attack might be what pushes him to launch. This is a very tricky brinkmanship exercise going on here.
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But that full NATO attack would only happen of putin attacked Ukraine with a nuke first.

So there is no threat to russia right now. No one is attacking russia.
 
Liberal7360 said:
But that full NATO attack would only happen of putin attacked Ukraine with a nuke first.
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That appears to be the plan.
Liberal7360 said:
So there is no threat to russia right now. No one is attacking russia.
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Putin feels NATO is a threat currently due to weapons and training provided to Ukrainian forces.
 
Fishking said:
1. They can't.
2. I hope not.
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Why can’t they? Ukraine has learned the lesson that they need Allie’s to dissuade Russia from invasion. They are going to join NATO as soon as they can.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
Oh, Hi EMNofSeattle. Haven't seen you in the main Ukraine thread since Russia got its ass handed to it in the Kharkiv region.
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Russia engaged in orderly retreat and is now mobilizing for their next offensive. They wisely chose not to waste lives defending the position. Unlike the Ukros who are still failing to make any real gains in Kherson
 
Allan said:
Any rational person understands a tit-for-tat nuclear exchange between Russia and NATO is unwinnable. Putin might not be one of those rational people.
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Putin counts on your assertion, which is not rational.
 
Allan said:
:ROFLMAO:

Well except for about 80,000 of them.
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Russia didn’t suffer 80,000 losses in Kharkov.

They haven’t suffered that many in the entire war
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Russia engaged in orderly retreat and is now mobilizing for their next offensive. They wisely chose not to waste lives defending the position. Unlike the Ukros who are still failing to make any real gains in Kherson
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"The decision to abandon Moscow was actually genius on Putins part. Soon the Ukrainians will be in the same situation as Napoleon..."
 
Fledermaus said:
The response will probably not be nukes. There are other options.
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I read that their “tactical nuclear weapons” have a range of only 300 miles. So they would have to move them into position, something NATO could possibly detect and neutralize them before they reach their destination.
 
Ethel2 said:
I read that their “tactical nuclear weapons” have a range of only 300 miles. So they would have to move them into position, something NATO could possibly detect and neutralize them before they reach their destination.
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The US has said it is stepping up surveillance in light of Putin's threats. Ground based systems are probably very detectible but these weapons can also be dropped from a plane.
 
Questerr said:
Russia should lose East Prussia as well. Their colony in the middle of NATO territory would need to go.
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It’s as much a “colony” as Wroclaw is a Polish one.

Furthermore, nobody WANTS “East Prussia” back in the first place. It’s like arguing Mexico would jump at the chance to retake the American Southwest.
 
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