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NSA scandal demands impeachment and arrest!

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The NSA scandal demands the impeachment of any senator or representative who leaked the classified information to the New York Times and any reporter who refuses to disclose their source for the story.

The Hillary Plame case has set the precedent that leaking classified CIA information demands indictments not only of those who leaked the story but of those who refuse to disclose where they got the information from ie Judah Miller. And unlike the outting of a non-covert agent this leak has put American lives in danger and hurt the war on terror.
 

cnredd

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
The NSA scandal demands the impeachment of any senator or representative who leaked the classified information to the New York Times and any reporter who refuses to disclose their source for the story.

The Hillary Plame case has set the precedent that leaking classified CIA information demands indictments not only of those who leaked the story but of those who refuse to disclose where they got the information from ie Judah Miller. And unlike the outting of a non-covert agent this leak has put American lives in danger and hurt the war on terror.
Different reasoning...

This one smears the President, so it's OK to some...:roll:
 

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Hmm, I feel like a cigar.
 

aps

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
The NSA scandal demands the impeachment of any senator or representative who leaked the classified information to the New York Times and any reporter who refuses to disclose their source for the story.

The Hillary Plame case has set the precedent that leaking classified CIA information demands indictments not only of those who leaked the story but of those who refuse to disclose where they got the information from ie Judah Miller. And unlike the outting of a non-covert agent this leak has put American lives in danger and hurt the war on terror.
Trajan, you're cute when you're defending the Prez. What I heard is that the intelligence community leaked the information to the New York Times. I can't even remember where I heard that--either George Stephanopoulis (which is probably misspelled), Chris Matthews, or Tim Russert.
 
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aps said:
Trajan, you're cute when you're defending the Prez. What I heard is that the intelligence community leaked the information to the New York Times. I can't even remember where I heard that--either George Stephanopoulis (which is probably misspelled), Chris Matthews, or Tim Russert.
Hay ooaa those are some great unbiased sources. :roll:
 

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These leaks have gotten out of control, and this will hurt us in the future, if it has not already. Just like when the story was broke about UBL cellphone situation, and he then immediately stopped using this form of communication. These things tie the hands of the folks working hard to protect us. Hours and hours, months and months, and years and years go in to these practices, and to have a paper dash those in an instance, it's inexcusable.
 

aps

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Hay ooaa those are some great unbiased sources. :roll:
Oh good--something else we agree on. ;)

Honestly, my husband and I suspect that Chris Matthews is a republican. Yes he worked for Carter, but his brother is running for Lt. Gov in Pennsylvania as a republican. So you never know.

I think Tim Russert is pretty objective, as is George.
 

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Those who leaked this should be honored, regardless of whether it was illegal or not. They've done us a great service by revealing to us how ****ed up the administration is in terms of invasion of privacy. Sometimes, things like this have to be done for the good of the nation.
 
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FinnMacCool said:
Those who leaked this should be honored, regardless of whether it was illegal or not. They've done us a great service by revealing to us how ****ed up the administration is in terms of invasion of privacy. Sometimes, things like this have to be done for the good of the nation.
Ya I think we should honor Scooter Libby too for outting that lying bitch Valrie Plame and her treachorous lying husband Joe Wilson.
 

FinnMacCool

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Ya I think we should honor Scooter Libby too for outting that lying bitch Valrie Plame and her treachorous lying husband Joe Wilson.
Scooter Libby was working for Bush.

These guys were working for truth.

Theres a difference.
 
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FinnMacCool said:
Scooter Libby was working for Bush.

These guys were working for truth.

Theres a difference.
No Libby was working for the truth that Joe Wilson is a partisan stooge of the Democratic party, these guys were working to undermine the war on terror and bring down the president for the Democrats by leaking classified information designed to protect U.S. citizens. Libby exposed the truth, the senators who leaked the info exposed an effective technique for fighting terrorism and have endangered the lives of American citizens.
 

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A lot of charges and counter-charges being thrown around by both sides. Lots of slanted coverage and counter-coverage. But so far, very little in the way of hard, incontrovertible truth seems to be known. Personally, to get at the rock-bottom truth and away from partisan gaming (hopefully), I'm in favor of congressional hearings, as have been called for by both sides of the aisle.

I'm betting that the truth will be somewhere between glorifying the whistleblowers on the one hand and absolute purity and innocence on the other. The question is, IMO, how far to one side or the other will this thing fall? Until we all know more, we can only speculate, which is being done to a fare thee well, using all the partisan devices at our respective disposals.

The truth is out there, lets go get it.
 

FinnMacCool

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No Libby was working for the truth that Joe Wilson is a partisan stooge of the Democratic party, these guys were working to undermine the war on terror and bring down the president for the Democrats by leaking classified information designed to protect U.S. citizens. Libby exposed the truth, the senators who leaked the info exposed an effective technique for fighting terrorism and have endangered the lives of American citizens.
Partisan this, partisan that.

Is that the only thing you have to offer here?

How is it possible for Libby to work for truth by telling lies?
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
The NSA scandal demands the impeachment of any senator or representative who leaked the classified information to the New York Times and any reporter who refuses to disclose their source for the story.

The Hillary Plame case has set the precedent that leaking classified CIA information demands indictments not only of those who leaked the story but of those who refuse to disclose where they got the information from ie Judah Miller. And unlike the outting of a non-covert agent this leak has put American lives in danger and hurt the war on terror.
I believe a case can be made where Bush's authorization of NSA spying is unconstitutional and violates the fourth amendment. He undertook this spying without any court approval which constitutes an unreasonable search and seizure under the constitution of the United States. You and your buddy cnredd, seem to think that the president should be a King. I thought you guys were patriots and believed in the principles of founding fathers who fought against King George of England. But I guess you guys would have been loyalists back in the days of the American Revolutionary War rather than the patriots who fought against the rule of England.
 
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FinnMacCool said:
Partisan this, partisan that.

Is that the only thing you have to offer here?

How is it possible for Libby to work for truth by telling lies?
Libby didn't lie about Plame that's a fact and the thing they are trying to get him on is lying to federal prosecutors about where he got the info from he says he got it from a journalist named Woodrow, and now Woodrow has stated that he did in fact give Libby the info so Libby is going to be totally exonerated.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Libby didn't lie about Plame that's a fact and the thing they are trying to get him on is lying to federal prosecutors about where he got the info from he says he got it from a journalist named Woodrow, and now Woodrow has stated that he did in fact give Libby the info so Libby is going to be totally exonerated.
Even if he's not, the president will pardon him, as he should.;)
 
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TimmyBoy said:
I believe a case can be made where Bush's authorization of NSA spying is unconstitutional and violates the fourth amendment. He undertook this spying without any court approval which constitutes an unreasonable search and seizure under the constitution of the United States. You and your buddy cnredd, seem to think that the president should be a King. I thought you guys were patriots and believed in the principles of founding fathers who fought against King George of England. But I guess you guys would have been loyalists back in the days of the American Revolutionary War rather than the patriots who fought against the rule of England.
It's all with in the law unless a warrantless phone tap is used for a prosecution of a crime it's merely an extension of the RICO act and Roaving wire taps used against organized crime that was implemented by the Clinton administration, how does it feel to be wrong about everything???
 

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Deegan said:
Even if he's not, the president will pardon him, as he should.;)
I don't believe Bush will pardon anybody who is guilty of a crime. I do believe he might pardon somebody who is railroaded on made up accusations.

So far as the NSA scandal goes, those who are demanding Bush's head on a platter better be prepared to see indictments and full prosecution of every living president and a whole bunch of people in their administrations if they are going to be fair and impartial on this one. Every administration has done this and far worse, and I doubt you'll see much come of it just because there are no clean hands anywhere.

Is spying justified to protect the American public? I think sometimes it is. That's why we have spies.

Is it possible that an American is evil and has evil purposes in mind? Yes. It is possible.

Is 'leaking' this information a bad thing to do? The terrorists certainly don't think so.
 

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AlbqOwl said:
I don't believe Bush will pardon anybody who is guilty of a crime. I do believe he might pardon somebody who is railroaded on made up accusations.

So far as the NSA scandal goes, those who are demanding Bush's head on a platter better be prepared to see indictments and full prosecution of every living president and a whole bunch of people in their administrations if they are going to be fair and impartial on this one. Every administration has done this and far worse, and I doubt you'll see much come of it just because there are no clean hands anywhere.

Is spying justified to protect the American public? I think sometimes it is. That's why we have spies.

Is it possible that an American is evil and has evil purposes in mind? Yes. It is possible.

Is 'leaking' this information a bad thing to do? The terrorists certainly don't think so.
You know, what amazes me about you is that you never question authority. You simply just blindly obey, believe that America NEVER does anything wrong and that President is always right and would NEVER abuse his power. I find your unwillingness to question authority out of line with the Founding Fathers and unpatriotic. I remember what you said to me in the past, I don't forget. You talked to me as if I didn't know anything, as if my experiences with the government lying and covering up things while I was in the military was untrue and as if we just simply believe and trust everything the government does and says. Well, I am here to tell you that everything I said was 100% true and that their is nothing unpatriotic about questioning authority and refusing to go along with the government or the crowd. This country wouldn't be the great country it is today without people who refused to go along with the crowd and who decided to be their own man and to be their own person and to think for themselves. That is in line with the founding fathers of this nation and it is in line with true patriotism. Not this fake BS patriotism that doesn't come from the heart that I have seen in alot of people who just repeat government slogans and blindly obey unquestionably.
 

aps

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Libby didn't lie about Plame that's a fact and the thing they are trying to get him on is lying to federal prosecutors about where he got the info from he says he got it from a journalist named Woodrow, and now Woodrow has stated that he did in fact give Libby the info so Libby is going to be totally exonerated.
Trajan, that's not true. He said he got the information from Tim Russert, who claims he did not tell Libby about that information. Here's what Fitzgerald said at the press conference regarding Libby's testimony:

FITZGERALD: Let me talk you through what the indictment alleges.

The indictment alleges that Mr. Libby learned the information about Valerie Wilson at least three times in June of 2003 from government officials.

Let me make clear there was nothing wrong with government officials discussing Valerie Wilson or Mr. Wilson or his wife and imparting the information to Mr. Libby.

But in early June, Mr. Libby learned about Valerie Wilson and the role she was believed to play in having sent Mr. Wilson on a trip overseas from a senior CIA officer on or around June 11th, from an undersecretary of state on or around June 11th, and from the vice president on or about June 12th.

FITZGERALD: It's also clear, as set forth in the indictment, that some time prior to July 8th he also learned it from somebody else working in the Vice President's Office.

So at least four people within the government told Mr. Libby about Valerie Wilson, often referred to as "Wilson's wife," working at the CIA and believed to be responsible for helping organize a trip that Mr. Wilson took overseas.

In addition to hearing it from government officials, it's also alleged in the indictment that at least three times Mr. Libby discussed this information with other government officials.

It's alleged in the indictment that on June 14th of 2003, a full month before Mr. Novak's column, Mr. Libby discussed it in a conversation with a CIA briefer in which he was complaining to the CIA briefer his belief that the CIA was leaking information about something or making critical comments, and he brought up Joe Wilson and Valerie Wilson.

FITZGERALD: It's also alleged in the indictment that Mr. Libby discussed it with the White House press secretary on July 7th, 2003, over lunch. What's important about that is that Mr. Libby, the indictment alleges, was telling Mr. Fleischer something on Monday that he claims to have learned on Thursday.

In addition to discussing it with the press secretary on July 7th, there was also a discussion on or about July 8th in which counsel for the vice president was asked a question by Mr. Libby as to what paperwork the Central Intelligence Agency would have if an employee had a spouse go on a trip.

FITZGERALD: So that at least seven discussions involving government officials prior to the day when Mr. Libby claims he learned this information as if it were new from Mr. Russert. And, in fact, when he spoke to Mr. Russert, they never discussed it.

But in addition to focusing on how it is that Mr. Libby learned this information and what he thought about it, it's important to focus on what it is that Mr. Libby said to the reporters.

In the account he gave to the FBI and to the grand jury was that he told reporters Cooper and Miller at the end of the week, on July 12th. And that what he told them was he gave them information that he got from other reporters; other reporters were saying this, and Mr. Libby did not know if it were true. And in fact, Mr. Libby testified that he told the reporters he did not even know if Mr. Wilson had a wife.

And, in fact, we now know that Mr. Libby discussed this information about Valerie Wilson at least four times prior to July 14th, 2003: on three occasions with Judith Miller of the New York Times and on one occasion with Matthew Cooper of Time magazine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html
 

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TimmyBoy said:
You know, what amazes me about you is that you never question authority. You simply just blindly obey, believe that America NEVER does anything wrong and that President is always right and would NEVER abuse his power. I find your unwillingness to question authority out of line with the Founding Fathers and unpatriotic. I remember what you said to me in the past, I don't forget. You talked to me as if I didn't know anything, as if my experiences with the government lying and covering up things while I was in the military was untrue and as if we just simply believe and trust everything the government does and says. Well, I am here to tell you that everything I said was 100% true and that their is nothing unpatriotic about questioning authority and refusing to go along with the government or the crowd. This country wouldn't be the great country it is today without people who refused to go along with the crowd and who decided to be their own man and to be their own person and to think for themselves. That is in line with the founding fathers of this nation and it is in line with true patriotism. Not this fake BS patriotism that doesn't come from the heart that I have seen in alot of people who just repeat government slogans and blindly obey unquestionably.
While I don't at all accept your characterizatons of what I believe or what I have said, I would simply point out that this would not be the great country it is today without people with vision and optimism and a willingness to be part of the solution rather than those who see nothing but bad, evil, corruption, doom and gloom. I prefer to be a part of the first group. How about you?
 

TimmyBoy

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AlbqOwl said:
While I don't at all accept your characterizatons of what I believe or what I have said, I would simply point out that this would not be the great country it is today without people with vision and optimism and a willingness to be part of the solution rather than those who see nothing but bad, evil, corruption, doom and gloom. I prefer to be a part of the first group. How about you?
I consider myself optomistic, otherwise I wouldn't have never been able to get a decent education and decent job. But I do like to tell things the way it is when the times and circumstances demand brutal honesty. Generally, I don't like to be brutally honest all the time, because it can be offensive to people. But their are times when one has no choice but to be brutually honest because of the stakes involved. I see Bush's methods as a direct threat to the principles of this nation. If Bush could have his way, he would have CIA opertatives exempt from being prosecuted for torturing detainees or to having a continuance of the Patriot Act. This Act is the most unpatriotic act I have ever seen and it is an insult to even name it "Patriot." In order to find solutions, you have to have an honest assessment, especially when the stakes are so high.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I consider myself optomistic, otherwise I wouldn't have never been able to get a decent education and decent job. But I do like to tell things the way it is when the times and circumstances demand brutal honesty. Generally, I don't like to be brutally honest all the time, because it can be offensive to people. But their are times when one has no choice but to be brutually honest because of the stakes involved. I see Bush's methods as a direct threat to the principles of this nation. If Bush could have his way, he would have CIA opertatives exempt from being prosecuted for torturing detainees or to having a continuance of the Patriot Act. This Act is the most unpatriotic act I have ever seen and it is an insult to even name it "Patriot." In order to find solutions, you have to have an honest assessment, especially when the stakes are so high.
Everybody is entitled to their opinions, of course. I wonder however, if you can find a post anywhere in all your posts on DebatePolitics in which you had anything good to say about this President or his policies or his vision? If you can't think of one or find one somewhere, then don't you think only those who share your outlook will share your opinion? Many do. You'll have to settle for that, I think.
 

TimmyBoy

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AlbqOwl said:
While I don't at all accept your characterizatons of what I believe or what I have said, I would simply point out that this would not be the great country it is today without people with vision and optimism and a willingness to be part of the solution rather than those who see nothing but bad, evil, corruption, doom and gloom. I prefer to be a part of the first group. How about you?
Trusting the government with your civil liberties is like making a deal with the devil. The founding fathers understood this concept and it is one of many reasons why they enacted the form of government we have. But I feel that the Patriot Act is putting too much faith or trust in the government not to violate our freedoms. The founding fathers certainly didn't trust government and I don't either, especially when it comes to my freedom. You never make a deal with the devil.
 
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New point of fact:

The Supreme Court and the 4th circuit court has ruled that the President has broader constitutional authority to use any means to protect the security of our nation during war time so this is in reality a non-issue. The issue here is that someone leaked classified information in this case and in the case of the secret prison camps and whoever leaked that information is in a gross violation of the law and the penalty for this crime is very severe.
 
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