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NRA group sees backlash over gun auctions in schools

zsu2357

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I disagree, in my time as a on farm butcher I have seen many cattle between 1500 and 2000 lbs dropped with one well placed shot from a .22 mag...
I worked for a cattle rancher in 1980 between George and Quincy WA. and we had a Brucellosis outbreak. A .22 l.r. out of a pistol was iffy,however out of a rifle no problem. But like you noted it was a well placed shot.
 

JacksinPA

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I disagree, in my time as a on farm butcher I have seen many cattle between 1500 and 2000 lbs dropped with one well placed shot from a .22 mag...
At close range, as between the top of my bed & the door to my bedroom, three or four rounds into an attacker's midsection/chest is at least going to dissuade him from continuing the attack. If he's on the floor, it gives me time to get up & put one into the nape of his neck at close range. Threat eliminated. 'Your honor, he was getting up & I feared for my life. That's why I fired the fatal (and final) round.'
 

JacksinPA

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It would have to be a very well placed shot indeed. Not something I would care to risk while in a life or death situation. The bigger the round, the less accurate you will need to be. Which is one of the reasons why the 0.65 caliber 12-guage is such an effective defensive firearm. It is also the caliber of my choice, and I'm defending against 10 foot tall, 1,400 pound brown bears. I just bought an AR12 last year to replace my well-used 35 year-old Mossberg Model 500. I also keep a .44 Mag revolver as back-up, because it is damn difficult to cast for salmon while carrying a shotgun, but my primary camp gun is my AR12.
The problem is trying to minimize the negative effect a missed round would have if it killed or injured my next door neighbor. Seven .22 Magnum rounds will at least slow down an attacker. A snub-nosed handgun is not known for accuracy.
 
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Chillfolks

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Probably a more effective fundraiser than a bake sale.
 

TurtleDude

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The problem is trying to minimize the negative effect a missed round would have if it killed or injured my next door neighbor. Seven .22 Magnum rounds will at least slow down an attacker. A snub-nosed handgun is not known for accuracy.
#4 tactical buckshot out of a 12 G semi auto has both great stopping power and won't penetrate as deep into a wall as a 22 Mag
 

Glitch

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Granted, cattle will actually hold still and look at you most of the time.

We once had a steer that was hard to get a shot at because he wouldn't stop walking up and licking the barrel of the rifle.

A .22mag is not the choice I would make for bear protection either but I wouldn't dismiss it's ability to be lethal...
It is illegal to use a rim-fire round on a large game animal in Alaska (with one very rare exception). You certainly wouldn't want to use one for self-defense, unless you were suicidal. A .22 caliber round is definitely NOT using the right tool for the job if that job is self-defense. You are trying to make due with a ball-peen hammer when only a sledge-hammer will work.
 

Waddy

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I disagree, in my time as a on farm butcher I have seen many cattle between 1500 and 2000 lbs dropped with one well placed shot from a .22 mag...
The key to that was the "well placed" part...
 

TurtleDude

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The key to that was the "well placed" part...
mafia cleaners favored 22 rimfire for hits
several reasons

low noise-especially with suppressed pistols
tracing hollow point 22 rounds with the soft lead bullets is much tougher than jacketed rounds out of a 9mm or a 5

The shots were usually very close-back of the head stuff

I saw a tape of a mob hit in NJ courtesy of the FBI who had been surveilling a "rat". the victim was walking down a street in Newark IIRC, the street was somewhat crowded. The cleaner was right behind him with a 22 High standard semi auto pistol with a suppressor attached, hidden under a folded newspaper. As the victim turned the corner on a street block, the hitter kept going straight but raised his gun (hidden by the corner of the building) and shot the victim twice in the back of the head and crossed the street. a block down, he dumbed the newspaper with the pistol into a garbage can. People right behind the hitter didn't see it
 

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The problem is trying to minimize the negative effect a missed round would have if it killed or injured my next door neighbor. Seven .22 Magnum rounds will at least slow down an attacker. A snub-nosed handgun is not known for accuracy.
The way to minimize the negative effect of a missed round is to know where your round will go before you pull the trigger. I have been hunting for 57 years and I have never once fired a single round where I didn't know its trajectory before I pulled the trigger. It is never enough to just be able to hit your target, you must also know where the round will go if you miss the target, or if the round goes through the target.

In a life or death situation your concern with where your rounds are ending up is a very low priority. You are not likely to think of your next door neighbors while defending your life, unless you are defending your life from your next door neighbors of course.

Snub-nosed revolvers are designed to be a close-quarters weapon. The shortened barrel also means the round is going to be severely under-powered. For example, a .44 caliber 180 grain bullet with 10.7 grains of VV N350 fired from a snub-nosed revolver will get you 1,173 FPS, or 549 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Whereas the exact same round fired from a revolver with a 7.5" barrel results in 741 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle because the muzzle velocity is now 1,361 FPS due to the longer barrel.

Snub-nosed revolvers are much easier to conceal and carry than a revolver with a 7.5" barrel, but there is a sacrifice being made for that convenience in addition to the accuracy that you mentioned.
 

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#4 tactical buckshot out of a 12 G semi auto has both great stopping power and won't penetrate as deep into a wall as a 22 Mag
You are also likely to blow a 12" diameter hole in any interior wall with a 12-guage firing buck shot, as opposed to a quarter inch hole created by a .22 cal. So it really depends on how much Spackle you want to use to fix the holes in your walls. ;)
 

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You are also likely to blow a 12" diameter hole in any interior wall with a 12-guage firing buck shot, as opposed to a quarter inch hole created by a .22 cal. So it really depends on how much Spackle you want to use to fix the holes in your walls. ;)
hit someone in the chest with a 22Mag (and he best be trying to kill you to justify the shooting), the target might well be able to stab you to death and certainly shoot you. Hit him in the chest at 7 yards or in (95 % of defensive shootings take place within 7 yards) with a load of federal tactical (2 3/4 dram powder load-same as a skeet or quail load) #4 buck and the chances of the mope shooting you or stabbing you is less than about 2% (assume he isn't wearing body armor)
 

Serenity

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GREENVILLE, Ky. — Parents and students trickled into the Muhlenberg County High School gym on a hot Saturday night as the sounds of cheers and a referee’s whistle carried from an athletic field nearby. Inside the “Home of the Mustangs,” Friends of NRA was raffling off guns: semi-automatic rifles and handguns, guns with high-capacity magazines and pump-action shotguns.

In the past two years, the NRA Foundation’s fundraising program had displayed actual guns along the wooden bleachers in the gym. This time organizers showed only pictures, bowing to objections from parents who pointed to a shooting at another western Kentucky high school last year that left two students dead and more than a dozen wounded.
==================================================
What's wrong with this picture? The NRA (via its 'Foundation') is actively merchandising handguns, semiautomatic long guns, high-capacity magazines & pump-action shotguns in public schools & other locations. I thought they existed to protect our 2nd A. rights. Instead they seem to be actively promoting gun ownership across the country.
The onion?
 

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hit someone in the chest with a 22Mag (and he best be trying to kill you to justify the shooting), the target might well be able to stab you to death and certainly shoot you. Hit him in the chest at 7 yards or in (95 % of defensive shootings take place within 7 yards) with a load of federal tactical (2 3/4 dram powder load-same as a skeet or quail load) #4 buck and the chances of the mope shooting you or stabbing you is less than about 2% (assume he isn't wearing body armor)
The Marine Corps pistol qualifications also used 7 meters for quick reaction drills. There is also a 15 meter sustained fire, requiring a magazine change, and a 25 meter slow fire. There are a total of 400 possible points in 40 shots, and it requires a minimum score of 290 to qualify as Marksman. A score between 330 and 344 qualifies them as Sharpshooter, and a score above 344 qualifies them as an Expert marksman with a pistol.

FYI, the above were the qualifications for the M1911 .45 ACP. I left the Marine Corps before they deployed the Beretta 92F in 1981, so I don't know if they changed their qualification as a result.
 

TurtleDude

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The Marine Corps pistol qualifications also used 7 meters for quick reaction drills. There is also a 15 meter sustained fire, requiring a magazine change, and a 25 meter slow fire. There are a total of 400 possible points in 40 shots, and it requires a minimum score of 290 to qualify as Marksman. A score between 330 and 344 qualifies them as Sharpshooter, and a score above 344 qualifies them as an Expert marksman with a pistol.

FYI, the above were the qualifications for the M1911 .45 ACP. I left the Marine Corps before they deployed the Beretta 92F in 1981, so I don't know if they changed their qualification as a result.
The US Marshal's Service qualification course is the one I used when a DOJ attorney had to be certified to carry



its been several years since I have been involved in this course and I don't recall the entire course but its similar to the FBIs which is this
FBI Qualification Course of Fire

Stage 1

Distance- 3 Yards
6 Total Rounds for Stage
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 3 Shots Strong-Hand Only in 3 Seconds;
B. Repeat: Draw & Fire 3 Shots Strong-Hand Only in 3 Seconds
Total Stage Time Limit: 6 Seconds
Stage 2

Distance- 3 Yards
6 Total Rounds for Stage
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 3 Shots Strong-Hand Only; then
B.Transition to Support-Hand Only & Fire 3 Shots.
Total Stage Time Limit: 8 Seconds
Stage 3

Distance- 5 Yards
12 Total Rounds for Stage
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 3 Shots Using Both Hands in 3 Seconds;
B. Repeat 3 More Times (4 Total Times): Draw & Fire 3 Shots Using Both Hands
Total Stage Time Limit: 12 Seconds
Stage 4

Distance- 7 Yards
8 Total Rounds for Stage
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 4 Shots Using Both Hands in 4 Seconds;
B. Repeat: Draw & Fire 4 Shots Using Both Hands in 4 Seconds
Total Stage Time Limit: 8 Seconds
Stage 5

Distance- 7 Yards
8 Total Rounds for Stage
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 4 Shots Using Both Hands;
B. Perform Emergency Reload (Mag Falls to Ground);
C. Fire 4 More Shots Using Both Hands
Total Stage Time Limit: 8 Seconds
Stage 6

Distance- 15 Yards
6 Total Rounds
Sequence- A. Draw & Fire 3 Shots Using Both Hands;
B. Repeat: Draw & Fire 3 Shots Using Both Hands
Total Stage Time Limit: 12 Seconds
Stage 7

Distance- 15 Yards
4 Total Rounds
Sequence- Draw & Fire 4 Shots Using Both Hands
Total Stage Time Limit- 8 Seconds
Stage 8

Distance- 25 Yards
10 Total Rounds; Fire from Behind Cover
Sequence- A. Step Forward to 25 Yard Line;
B. Draw & Fire 2 Shots Standing Behind Cover Using Both Hands;
C. Transition to Kneeling Behind Cover and Using Both Hands Fire 3 More Rounds;
D. Repeat Stage for 2 Total Times
Total Stage Time Limit- 15 Seconds for 5 Shots (x2)

This seems to be pretty much the same thing the Marshal's service was using. This is not an easy course for most LEO. however, if you have a background in IDPA or USPSA, you will pass it fairly easily. I shot it with several firearms including stuff most of the LEOs carried

Glock 17 and 19
Sig 226 and 229
SW M&P
CZ 75
and a SW revolver.
 

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mafia cleaners favored 22 rimfire for hits
several reasons

low noise-especially with suppressed pistols
tracing hollow point 22 rounds with the soft lead bullets is much tougher than jacketed rounds out of a 9mm or a 5

The shots were usually very close-back of the head stuff

I saw a tape of a mob hit in NJ courtesy of the FBI who had been surveilling a "rat". the victim was walking down a street in Newark IIRC, the street was somewhat crowded. The cleaner was right behind him with a 22 High standard semi auto pistol with a suppressor attached, hidden under a folded newspaper. As the victim turned the corner on a street block, the hitter kept going straight but raised his gun (hidden by the corner of the building) and shot the victim twice in the back of the head and crossed the street. a block down, he dumbed the newspaper with the pistol into a garbage can. People right behind the hitter didn't see it
Very interesting story. An ice pick can be deadly at short range and "well placed". However, in the home invasion scenario I wouldn't want to trust my life to a "well placed' .22 shot. And I'm not a mafia cleaner. I may not be all that calm and collected. There is no "perfect" home defense round, but I think a 9mm or 40SW comes close. However, both of those are high velocity rounds, which would probably penetrate sheetrock walls, which is a consideration. But on the other hand you do need a minimum of stopping power. Maybe a 45ACP going around 850FPS?

People talk a lot about 12 gauge for home defense. In IDPA shooting (defensive handgun, Limited class) I've shot both handguns and shotguns in a closed, poorly lit room, simulating a home. Handguns aren't like you see on TV, where they can blast away and still talk to each other; in reality you are blind for a number of seconds from muzzle flash, and can't hear anything. Shotguns are ten times worse. You can't see or hear for quite a while.

THAT is why I favor a suppressor on the front of whatever gun you choose for home defense. It greatly reduces both flash and noise. My caliber is 45ACP because it can easily be loaded subsonic. Suppressors aren't all that effective with high velocity rounds. They are legal now and I have them on both of my home defense handguns.
 

Waddy

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It is illegal to use a rim-fire round on a large game animal in Alaska (with one very rare exception). You certainly wouldn't want to use one for self-defense, unless you were suicidal. A .22 caliber round is definitely NOT using the right tool for the job if that job is self-defense. You are trying to make due with a ball-peen hammer when only a sledge-hammer will work.
When I was young and stupid some pals and I got into a scuffle with another group running the streets. We were all keyed up, and shots were fired. The "meeting" immediately broke up. One of the guys I was with took a .22 round in the rib cage and didn't even know he was shot until he saw the blood some time later when we got back to the house. Don't bet your life on a .22 doing the job.
 
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