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Now what?

Monica33 said:
He will doubtless protect his New Republics if required
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Putin disavows any connections with the LNR/DPR.

Early on, they had named themselves as "Luhansk People's Soviet/Donetsk People's Soviet".

The Kremlin (Surkov) made them change those baggage-laden names.
 
Monica33 said:
Still waiting for any shred of evidence .Even a teeny weeny one .

He will doubtless protect his New Republics if required , but that has as much to do with invasion as it has to do with the price of a sandwich .
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“Protect his New Republics”. *L*. Say hello to Vlad for us.
 
Monica33 said:
No .
The big two are now in a super two team league and the US has nowhere to go .
The shortest ever Empire and one based on control and fear has been largely ignored and already largely bypassed .

Perhaps the US should enter the Banana market .The UK consumes enormous amounts and we are just about your only remaining notional pals . God help us .
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Translation: "Whah! Those mean ol' Yankees stole our empire from us (while saving our sorry asses from the Nazis and protecting us from the Soviets) and now we hate them for it. Boo-hoo!"

Cheer up. You'll always have the Falklands. (y)
 
watsup said:
Putin’s not dumb. He’s pretty certain that Russia can withstand any economic sanctions that the West can throw at him.
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This kind of crap doesn't help:
 
VySky said:
Careful, your praise for Putin means you voted for Trump. Deplorable stuff.
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Yep. Putin has been in power for 22 years, crushing Russian society while killing, jailing, and exiling all rivals and critics. He has assassinated across Europe and made war on neighbors. And he interfered in our 2016 election to help Trump.
 
Juin said:
Should sanctions on Russia include energy?
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Should the West sit on our thumbs while a European democracy is crushed by a dictator?
 
watsup said:
Indications are that President Biden is right and that Putin will invade Ukraine within the week.
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This was telegraphed.

Give Putin what he wants or it's WW3.

We have no chance of defending Nato if Putin rolls past Ukraine.
 
jpn said:
Should the West sit on our thumbs while a European democracy is crushed by a dictator?
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What do you suggest?

Seems to me Putin has totally out flaked us and we have no options other than Armageddon.
 
noonereal said:
We have no chance of defending Nato if Putin rolls past Ukraine.
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Hyperbole and giving in to Kremlin propaganda.

If Putin thought he could defeat NATO, he would be attacking the small Baltic States rather than Ukraine.
 
noonereal said:
What do you suggest?
Seems to me Putin has totally out flaked us and we have no options other than Armageddon.
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I agree we won't go to war with Russia over Ukraine and risk a nuclear exchange. So crippling sanctions are the alternative. Make them as severe as possible.

However, I disagree that we wouldn't risk it over NATO-member countries, including the Baltic nations. For one thing, I believe an American-let NATO effort would kick some serious ass. The Russian military is no match for ours.

Meanwhile, the propaganda in Russia is intense. Imagine living in a country where every channel is Fox "News." That alone would be worth going to war over.
www.state.gov

Russia’s Top Five Persistent Disinformation Narratives - United States Department of State

Russia has long exploited the “Illusion of Truth” effect: When a lie is repeated so often that people begin to believe it. Understanding this effect can help you avoid falling for it.
www.state.gov www.state.gov
 
Rogue Valley said:
Hyperbole and giving in to Kremlin propaganda.

If Putin thought he could defeat NATO, he would be attacking the small Baltic States rather than Ukraine.
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Wait till you are President of Russia.
 
jpn said:
I disagree that we wouldn't risk it over NATO-member countries, including the Baltic nations.
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Read about Russia's tactical nuclear advantages. If Putin went into NATO we would be powerless, yes powerless. Our only option would be Armageddon as I said.

Our military money has bought mansions for the wealthy it has not kept us competitive on the battlefield.
 
jpn said:
I agree we won't go to war with Russia over Ukraine and risk a nuclear exchange. So crippling sanctions are the alternative. Make them as severe as possible.

However, I disagree that we wouldn't risk it over NATO-member countries, including the Baltic nations.
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I am beginning to doubt whether that holds True anymore. Nato may be facing the consequences of over expansion. Cohesion reduces with increase in numbers. Nato went from 15 member states to 30. You don't explode like that without losing internal cohesion. Some parts of Nato are practically living in parallel universes. To the old 15 member Nato the organisation is purely defensive, small, close knit club. To the eastern Slavonic, newly minted entrants post 1991 Nato is the vehicle for the destruction once and for all of the centuries old Russian project.
 
noonereal said:
Read about Russia's tactical nuclear advantages. If Putin went into NATO we would be powerless, yes powerless. Our only option would be Armageddon as I said.
Our military money has bought mansions for the wealthy it has not kept us competitive on the battlefield.
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The discussion of tactical nuclear weapons is complex. Even in a hot war, would either side seriously consider employing them? I'm sure Russia would if their own territory was threatened, which is why NATO would never do so.
On the other hand, would NATO use the first nuke if it looked like we were losing, say, Lithuania? What about Poland? I don't know.

One thing is certain, Putin invading Ukraine is exactly the thing to make NATO nations re-invigorate their defenses, including tactical nukes.
 
jpn said:
would either side seriously consider employing them?
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Yes! Emphatically, yes. Russia would.

This is what most don't realize, we are light years behind in this regard.

This is completely different from the kind of nuclear war we all taught to think of.

Tactical nukes are very different. I can't emphasize this enough.

jpn said:
would NATO use the first nuke
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You see, you are not differentiating. This is the old mind set.

Let me see if I can find some info for you on this.

Stop thinking the big nukes and that when one goes off everyone fires. With tactical, it is not like that.
 
Juin said:
I am beginning to doubt whether that holds True anymore. Nato may be facing the consequences of over expansion. Cohesion reduces with increase in numbers. Nato went from 15 member states to 30. You don't explode like that without losing internal cohesion. Some parts of Nato are practically living in parallel universes. To the old 15 member Nato the organisation is purely defensive, small, close knit club. To the eastern Slavonic, newly minted entrants post 1991 Nato is the vehicle for the destruction once and for all of the centuries old Russian project.
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Yes, I'd say its cohesion depends on its members' embrace of liberal democracy. When member nations like Poland, Hungary, and Turkey move toward right-wing authoritarianism, it destabilized the whole NATO project--a prime goal of Putin.

As for the "centuries old Russian project," Putin needs to join the modern era. The age of empires is over, or at least we all hoped that it was.
 
jpn said:
The discussion of tactical nuclear weapons is complex. Even in a hot war, would either side seriously consider employing them? I'm sure Russia would if their own territory was threatened, which is why NATO would never do so.
On the other hand, would NATO use the first nuke if it looked like we were losing, say, Lithuania? What about Poland? I don't know.

One thing is certain, Putin invading Ukraine is exactly the thing to make NATO nations re-invigorate their defenses, including tactical nukes.
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Plus the Three Baltic midgets have the disadvantages of being extremely vulnerable to subversion, and asymmetric warfare, given their small sizes. Would Nato go to war over internal destabilisation?
 
Juin said:
Plus the Three Baltic midgets have the disadvantages of being extremely vulnerable to subversion, and asymmetric warfare, given their small sizes. Would Nato go to war over internal destabilisation?
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What would "going to war" over, say, cyber-attacks even look like? Sending Tomahawks through the windows of the computer facility in St. Petersburg where the cyber-attacks are originating? Don't think so. So probably more like fighting fire with fire, whatever that looked like. Right?
 
jpn said:
Yes, I'd say its cohesion depends on its members' embrace of liberal democracy. When member nations like Poland, Hungary, and Turkey move toward right-wing authoritarianism, it destabilized the whole NATO project--a prime goal of Putin.
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So Putin is to blame for Nato's own decision to admit the fellows you list?


jpn said:
As for the "centuries old Russian project," Putin needs to join the modern era. The age of empires is over, or at least we all hoped that it was.
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The eastern Slavonic nations are not operating under the same Jeffersonian Logic as yourself. The likes of Poland, the Three Baltic midgets, Ukraine see the Russian project as an existential threat, independent of time and ideology; before Putin and after Putin; whether Nato is a democracy or not. Nato to them is primarily a defense against the Russian Federation. That is the only use that counts to them.
 
Biden will be asleep when it happens and will do nothing
 
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