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He does, so far as I have seen. It gets worse. Be warned.
This is a bit off-topic, but I've always been a bit puzzled by James' conclusion of religious experience and I don't really know anyone else who's read him, so I'd like to pick your brain on this for a moment if that's ok (since you cited it).
Particularly his second point that "That union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end" seems to be missing out on religious experiences of profound terror and suffering that exist though are not as commonplace as the more transcendent experiences he cites. I'm talking about visions of being taken to hell, or even the experience of whoever wrote Revelation, who obviously was not having a good time. It's been a while since I've read this book, but from what I recall he sort of lumped those experiences into his 'uneasiness and solution' paradigm when they are followed by the more positive transcendent experiences typically had. I found that a little too convenient. Who's to say those experiences aren't telling of "the more" (as James calls it) in and of themselves? What if some aspect of "the more" actually causes pain to those who connect to it?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting there's a real hell. But there seems to be a corner of religious experience James sort of glossed over in his more positive outlook.
That is news to me. Right now we live in Pascal's Wager, we have evidence that God is just a myth like other gods of the Greek world. Still we believe in a God because we are making a wager that he does exists. It does not really cost much to purchase this lottery ticket. But if humans are born after the second coming, then it is a universal truth that God and Jesus are real. There will not be any faith, because it becomes a given God is real.
Philosophy is not a book, even though philosophers may write a book.You have heard of writing have you not? Philosophers write down what they reason, Books are created by that means. And from that dictionaries are compiled to give form to these books.
You are denying philosophy completely.You really have no clue about philosophy if you think it is just people sitting around do absolutely nothing but reasoning. pathetic.
Yes, that's one of the standard criticisms of James....
Generally. You will find that credentials claimed on forums doesn't mean anything. I also see that you are not familiar with philosophy.Hmmm...I wonder if you take that attitude with everyone you meet. If so, good luck with that.
Working in a 'philosophy' department is not philosophy. It sounds to me like none of these people are making arguments of philosophy. Personally, I find that most university philosophy departments aren't worth the soapbox they stand on. No university defines philosophy. I find that most don't teach it either, even those that have 'philosophy' departments.Is that so? Well, here are a few examples I can think of just off the top of my head:
Catherine Elgin's paper True Enough makes extensive use of common ideas in physics, like Boyle's ideal gas law, or Euler's notion of the center of gravity.
Nancy Cartwright cites so much physics in How the Laws of Physics Lie that it's practically half the book.
Ian Hacking argues in The Taming of Chance on the basis of the findings of Quantum Mechanics that the old Laplacean deterministic idea is false.
William James quotes a great many mystics and saints in The Varieties of Religious Experience, including Francis of Assissi and John Bunyan.
William Hasker draws extensively on Calvinist Theology in Providence and Evil.
Alvin Plantinga makes very extensive use of both concepts in science and religion--specifically evolutionary and physics concepts (he defends God's ability to perform miracles on the basis of the findings of QM, for example), and also quotes the Belgic and Westminster confessions, in Where the Conflict Really Lies.
Paul and Patricia Churchland draw on neuroscience with such frequency that I doubt you could find more than one or two essays by them that don't include something from that field.
Elliot Sober argues for a nearly orthodox view of evolution in The Philosophy of Biology--and to do so, he has to cite the findings of biology quite frequently in that text.
And so on...heck, even Plato cites priests and mystics of his day in dialogues like Euthyphro and Timaeus. Practically all the medieval philosophers cite scripture as support for their arguments. Kant cites so much theology in Religion within the Bounds of Reason Alone that it makes up about half the book. Take a look at practically anything by Tim Maudlin, J.D. Trout, Kareem Khalifa, John Hick, Robert Adams, Linda Zagzebski (at least her phil of religion stuff), Michael Rea, Peter Van Inwagen, or Henk De Regt for more examples. I'm sure I could think of others if I wanted to continue. These are all either individuals working in philosophy departments at universities today or recently, or are traditionally recognized as philosophers.
You just agreed science comes from philosophy, then you go right back to saying philosophy comes from science.Sure. What does that have to do with anything?
I have no idea why someone would think this. Why do you?
No such thing.No, I mean philosophers who work extensively in philosophy of mind, commonly indicated by the phrase "philosophers of mind."
Lousy place to look. Most universities don't even teach philosophy, including those with 'philosophy' departments. You can write books, but it doesn't matter of someone else thinks you are philosopher or not, if you are presenting arguments of philosophy within it.Well, about the only way to do it lately is to get a PhD in philosophy and then get hired in a tenure track position at a university in a philosophy department. Theoretically, it's possible to just write books that impress other philosophers enough that they'll start thinking of you as a philosopher, but as with every other profession, there are politics involved. Most unfortunately. I personally hate that side of it.
Anyway, you obviously have the knack for it. Professorial salaries are usually enough to pay the bills and have a reasonable standard of living. And then you have other sources of income as well--writing books, sometimes various testing companies like GRE or LSAT will hire you to write or edit tests, or you can be asked to come give a lecture for an honorarium. Don't expect to make a killing--doctors and lawyers usually make much more. But on the other hand, I get paid to teach classes, read and write about philosophy, and sit around thinking about questions that interest me. Hard to ask for a better life in this world.
What is accepted science fact, is different than the viewpoints of the majority of Americans. The common man is a uneducated man.
Generally. You will find that credentials claimed on forums doesn't mean anything. I also see that you are not familiar with philosophy.
Working in a 'philosophy' department is not philosophy. It sounds to me like none of these people are making arguments of philosophy. Personally, I find that most university philosophy departments aren't worth the soapbox they stand on. No university defines philosophy. I find that most don't teach it either, even those that have 'philosophy' departments.
You just agreed science comes from philosophy, then you go right back to saying philosophy comes from science.
Welcome to your new paradox. Which is it, dude?
Read up on Pascal's Wager.
It is true that evidence exists that no god or gods exist. It is also true that evidence exists that a god or gods exist. It is not possible to prove either way. Faith would still be required. If Jesus Christ came up to you right now, told you who He was, and shook your hand, would you believe Him?
Faith is used to create any theory, including all theories of science. Faith is used to engineer any device. Faith is used to even use the device. Faith is simply another name for the circular argument, which is not a fallacy in and of itself.
Science is not a fact. It is a set of falsifiable theories. There is no such thing as a 'science' fact. There is just a fact, or not.
I disagree with your use of 'common' man. This smacks of bigotry. People are individuals, each with their own talent, knowledge, weaknesses, and capabilities. There really is nothing 'common' about them.
Read up on Pascal's Wager.
It is true that evidence exists that no god or gods exist. It is also true that evidence exists that a god or gods exist. It is not possible to prove either way. Faith would still be required. If Jesus Christ came up to you right now, told you who He was, and shook your hand, would you believe Him?
Faith is used to create any theory, including all theories of science. Faith is used to engineer any device. Faith is used to even use the device. Faith is simply another name for the circular argument, which is not a fallacy in and of itself.
This is absolute nonsense.
Just for once try and be honest in your debate and back what you say.
It is true that evidence exists that no god or gods exist.
Really!!! Can you show us any of that proof? Demonstrate just one. For once do something other than make statements that are complete nonsense.
And no, your superstitions are faith based and the only way you have of making them even appear remotely credible is by falsely accusing every branch of knowledge to have the same fault as a pathetic superstition.
You are attempting to legitimise your faith in garbage beliefs by calling all knowledge faith.
Anyone making arguments of philosophy.So, I'm curious then, since folks like Plato, Kant, and James (and I could have cited Hume, Descartes, Locke, Hobbes, Leibniz, Aristotle, etc.) are widely acknowledged to be philosophers (even if you disagree that anyone working today is a philosopher), who, then, would you say is a philosopher?
You also said that philosophy was invented by science. Still locked in paradox, dude.No. I said that science was indeed invented by philosophers.
Yes it does.But religion does not come from philosophy.
..or rather, I have no idea why someone would think so, and I asked why you think so.
You still have to clear you paradox....deleted irrational portion...
Already have.This is absolute nonsense.
Just for once try and be honest in your debate and back what you say.
Evidence is not a proof. As for evidence that no god or gods exist:It is true that evidence exists that no god or gods exist.
Really!!! Can you show us any of that proof? Demonstrate just one. For once do something other than make statements that are complete nonsense.
Religion, actually. Yes. It is faith based. It cannot be otherwise.And no, your superstitions are faith based
Faith is not a fault.and the only way you have of making them even appear remotely credible is by falsely accusing every branch of knowledge to have the same fault as a pathetic superstition.
Never said any such thing. I said all theories, including theories of science, begin by faith. Theories of science are falsifiable. They have survived tests against their null hypothesis. They have gone beyond the simple circular argument. Nonscientific theories remain the circular arguments they started out as. They remain arguments of faith. Several have become religions.You are attempting to legitimise your faith in garbage beliefs by calling all knowledge faith.
Not quite true. The Sun and the Earth orbit around a common point that is not the center of the Sun. The Sun is so massive that it doesn't appear to wobble, but it does.There is this star, and the earth goes around this star we call the sun.
No, the Sun is made up of hydrogen and helium, and a few trace elements.This sun is made up with science,
Science does not cause the Earth to orbit.plus the science that keeps the earth going around the sun.
Not a science. An observation. The theory of the tides, however, IS science. It is falsifiable. So far, it has not yet been falsified.Plus we have the moon, and the science of the tides on earth are well defined.
Science is a set of falsifiable theories, not any fact. There is no such thing as a 'scientific' fact. There is only a fact...or not. Science has no proofs. It is never 'settled'. It does not use supporting evidence. It does not use consensus. It does not require an observation. It is not data or an observation. All observations (and the data created by them) are subject to the problems of phenomenology. They are evidence only.This is science, and well understood facts.
If Jesus came to me and shook my hand, and we had coffee when we talked. I can start a new religion, and my only evidence is being a eye witness to this theory. If I start a new religion, and ask people to give me money so I can say the good word from Jesus -- you and others will not believe me.
He said evidence, he did not say proof... evidence is not proof. They are not synonymous words...
Anyone making arguments of philosophy.
All religions are based on some initial circular argument (which itself is not a fallacy), then has other arguments extending from that.
Christianity, for example, is based on the initial circular argument that Jesus Christ exists, and He is who He says He is.
All other arguments in Christianity extend from that initial argument.
The other word for the circular argument is 'faith'. It is also known as the argument of faith.
A religion does not have to be organized. It does not require a god or gods. It does not require a minimum number of people. They ALL require, however, that initial circular argument, and for arguments to extend from that.
You still have to clear you paradox.
You: Philosophy does not come from science. Science comes from philosophy.
Me: Sure. What does that have to do with anything?
You: Philosophy does not come from religion. It's the other way around.
Me I have no idea why someone would think this. Why do you?
He said evidence, he did not say proof... evidence is not proof. They are not synonymous words...
Already have.
Evidence is not a proof. As for evidence that no god or gods exist:
* life itself
* no visible sighting of any god or gods, at least in recent days.
* the theory of abiogenesis
* the theory of evolution
* the theory of the Big Bang
There are evidences, not proofs. It is not possible to prove any god or gods do not exist.
Religion, actually. Yes. It is faith based. It cannot be otherwise.
Faith is not a fault.
Never said any such thing. I said all theories, including theories of science, begin by faith. Theories of science are falsifiable. They have survived tests against their null hypothesis. They have gone beyond the simple circular argument. Nonscientific theories remain the circular arguments they started out as. They remain arguments of faith. Several have become religions.
And here I thought that Plato and Kant, at least, had made "arguments of philosophy." And certainly Hume, who cites theologian after theologian in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, or Rene Descartes, who quotes Galileo in The Principles of First Philosophy and also in his Objections and Replies. Or Blaise Pascal (whom you have referrenced previously), who somewhat often makes a point in his Le Pensees by quoting from the Gospel of John.
So your reply is uninformative, and pretty obviously intentionally so. That is, you're being evasive. Give us the name of someone who, in your view, is making "arguments of philosophy."
What is this relation "based on" about--what does it mean to say that x is "based on" y in this context? What is the initial circular argument on which, say, Old Kingdom Egyptian religion is based? What about ancient Canaanite religion? The Medieval Kaula cults?
How is that an argument? There's no way to derive "Jesus is who he says he is" from "Jesus exists," or vice versa.
Why in the world do you think Christianity, and by parity of reasoning, other religions, are, or have, arguments? How does Augustin's argument for original sin derive from this "initial argument"? Or his argument against the reality of time? Show us, if you can, and if you dare, the chain of reasoning that leads from "Jesus exists" and "Jesus is who he says he is" to these arguments of Augustin's.
What of those religions that explicitly reject faith? What of those that just don't say anything about faith at all?
So I'm guessing that, in your view, pre-axial Brahmanic religion was not actually religion. Nor are basically any of the ancient cults. Nor Gnosticism. Nor a whole host of others that don't have "initial circular arguments."
No paradox. Here was the exchange, in post 542:
I accept the claim that philosophy invented science. I question the claim that philosophy invented religion. Religion and science are not identical.
Please do not try and be any more ridiculous about this that you can possibly be.
Evidence either means making something very clear or is proof of something.
It is not a semantic word trick for dishonest christians to claim and then piss about pretending they meant something else.
It IS evidence. Evidence may come from an observation, the existence of a related theory, a math formula, anywhere. Evidence is any factor that may be used as a predicate to an argument or to a counter-argument (the conflicting argument).This is not evidence as you have already been told. these are mere assumptions on your part.
Partly.True, evidence can also be anything you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Not correct. Proofs exist in closed functional systems. They do not exist in open functional systems. Math and logic are closed functional systems.Believe being the operative word there. Which means all you have in the end is your faith.
They are. Even a closed functional system requires a certain amount of faith in the founding axioms that they do actually close the system.Faith is not a bad thing, i agree. Your use of it to pretend all branches of knowledge are faith based is.
Faith does not lower anything.It nothing more than a dishonest attempt to lower the level of knowledge to your own superstitious faith.
I am not arguing for or against any god or gods.I know what you said. it changes nothing about what i have said. You use faith as a weapon to give your own feeble beliefs in a god more power by pretending that everything is faith based.
They are not my definitions.And [leases stop trying to give your own false definitions of science or philosophy they are wrong as has been explained many times.
It is YOU playing semantics here. Inversion fallacy.And do try and be honest about this instead of palying semantics.
And I gave you the evidence you requested.I asked you to show this evidence not give proof.
Actually, you are. You are even now making an argument of ignorance fallacy.I would not waste my time asking for proof for what is nothing more than a silly superstition.
WRONG. Evidence is any factor that may be used as a predicate to an argument or a counter-argument.But evidence is what you believe, not proof.
I am not arguing for or against any fairy tale either.And yet all you can do so far is demonstrate that you would rather believe in fairy tales than actually offer evidence.
Inversion Fallacy. This is your problem, not mine.Please do not try and be any more ridiculous about this that you can possibly be.
Evidence means neither of those things... I noticed that ITN has already offered you a good definition of what evidence is. Evidence concerns what can be used as a predicate to aEvidence either means making something very clear or is proof of something.
No "word tricks" are being played... the words are very clearly defined...It is not a semantic word trick for dishonest christians to claim and then piss about pretending they meant something else.
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