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Not everyone should give birth

Scrabaholic

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"A Texas woman has been arrested after trying to use Craigslist to dump off her unwanted 3-year-old son. Stephanie Redus, 29, told police she'd been suffering from depression and anxiety in the days before posting the ad, but she couldn't take medication because she's pregnant with another child."

snip

"Earlier this year, 22-year-old Oklahoma mom Misty Van Horn attempted to sell her kids via a Facebook auction. The price tag for her 10-month-old girl was $1,000, but for $4,000 she'd also toss her 2-year-old into the deal. Her goal was apparently to raise enough money to bail her boyfriend out of jail."


The Daily Dot - Mom tries to get rid of 3-year-old son on Craigslist


Oh, but this is so much better than having an early term abortion.... < / sarcasm>
 

joko104

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As for the first one, I don't see a crime:

"Hi, I'm trying to adopt out my three year old son. I'm not in a good place in my life and don't feel like I can care for him properly, but I don't know where to start. If you or know anyone who is interested in caring for him please let me know. I'm a single mom and can't do this. Thanks, Desperate."

What crime? As one person commented, she was trying to find her son a good home acknowledging she couldn't do it - and at least didn't kill her son like some women do. The second one is a crime, but again she didn't hurt the children to get rid of them.
 

davidtaylorjr

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As for the first one, I don't see a crime:

"Hi, I'm trying to adopt out my three year old son. I'm not in a good place in my life and don't feel like I can care for him properly, but I don't know where to start. If you or know anyone who is interested in caring for him please let me know. I'm a single mom and can't do this. Thanks, Desperate."

What crime? As one person commented, she was trying to find her son a good home acknowledging she couldn't do it - and at least didn't kill her son like some women do. The second one is a crime, but again she didn't hurt the children to get rid of them.

Why not just take him to social services?
 

nota bene

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"A Texas woman has been arrested after trying to use Craigslist to dump off her unwanted 3-year-old son. Stephanie Redus, 29, told police she'd been suffering from depression and anxiety in the days before posting the ad, but she couldn't take medication because she's pregnant with another child."

snip

"Earlier this year, 22-year-old Oklahoma mom Misty Van Horn attempted to sell her kids via a Facebook auction. The price tag for her 10-month-old girl was $1,000, but for $4,000 she'd also toss her 2-year-old into the deal. Her goal was apparently to raise enough money to bail her boyfriend out of jail."


The Daily Dot - Mom tries to get rid of 3-year-old son on Craigslist


Oh, but this is so much better than having an early term abortion.... < / sarcasm>

Yes, it is. You don't know what the future holds for these children. Abortion extinguishes any future a child might have.
 

nota bene

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Sometimes a child is born crippled or difficent in such a way that makes life unlivable.

Oh, is that what we're talking about? The kids cited in the OP were defective? Or are you saying that abortion is justified if the fetus is "born crippled" or "difficent"?
 

Unitedwestand13

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Oh, is that what we're talking about? The kids cited in the OP were defective? Or are you saying that abortion is justified if the fetus is "born crippled" or "difficent"?

I am talking about cases when a baby is born a vegetable or suffer somthing that would kill the baby after birth, like having a disorder where it is unable to digest foods.
 

nota bene

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What does this have to do with the OP, which is about two cases of moms trying to dump their kids and how an early abortion would have been better?
 

Scrabaholic

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As for the first one, I don't see a crime:

"Hi, I'm trying to adopt out my three year old son. I'm not in a good place in my life and don't feel like I can care for him properly, but I don't know where to start. If you or know anyone who is interested in caring for him please let me know. I'm a single mom and can't do this. Thanks, Desperate."

What crime? As one person commented, she was trying to find her son a good home acknowledging she couldn't do it - and at least didn't kill her son like some women do. The second one is a crime, but again she didn't hurt the children to get rid of them.

I don't know the laws, but I do know it's not good for children to be shuffled around like livestock. To have a child for 3 years then give it up for adoption is hard on the child.
 

Unitedwestand13

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What does this have to do with the OP, which is about two cases of moms trying to dump their kids and how an early abortion would have been better?

If a mother is going to abandon her child then why did she go through all the trouble of having a child in the first place?
 

nota bene

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If a mother is going to abandon her child then why did she go through all the trouble of having a child in the first place?

None of us know what these women's particular circumstances were when they were pregnant or afterward; all we know about is their newsworthy actions now.

Do you seriously think that these women had their kids knowing that someday they would abandon them? I'll bet they never even thought of this.
 

Removable Mind

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Yes, it is. You don't know what the future holds for these children. Abortion extinguishes any future a child might have.

Implying that a fetus not being born as a result of an abortion is depriving it of life experiences in which it participates and is aware of isn't really a valid argument. That's impossible to predict.

There is no predicting any stage of the unborn or born's future in how he or she will contribute to society or be a burden on society, it's physical or mental abilities, or it's lifespan. And every single unborn or born's life could end in the next instant at the hands of another purposely or accidentally, or simply natural causes...regardless of age.

Death is imminent...no matter where, when, or how. Despite humanities efforts to create some kind of death control...we clearly observe the world existing in a state of thousands of years of wars, the natural events like disease, floods, droughts, famine, etc...and of course the crimes against others apparently exist because we haven't evolved enough to know how to completely eliminate deaths caused by humanity and nature.

Abortion, in and of itself, since the dawn of humanity, has accounted for such a tiny fractional impact on the existence of humanity that in comparison to other ways born persons perish...well, there is no comparison in reality.
 

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In most states, you cannot just give up a 3 year old. Desperation generally isn't rational anyway. Yes, that is what she should have done. However, seeking adoptive parents isn't a crime or even really wrong. To bandy a bit, maybe she didn't want her 3 year old put into the foster care system, but instead wanted to personally assure good adoptive parents herself.

If I concocted some extreme scenario in which I just could no longer take care of my child and having horrifically lost their mother and her relatives to death too, I absolutely would not just toss my children to social services. Rather, I would want to as much as possible involve and control the alternative upbringing of my children. For example, to try to insure they were not split apart - and dozens of other things I would not want to be in their future. For example, not placed with religious zealots. In short, for the first woman it seems she had good motives.
 

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If a mother is going to abandon her child then why did she go through all the trouble of having a child in the first place?


Please post for us what your exact life situation and the life situation of people you know will be 4 years from now economically, health and otherwise. BE SPECIFIC.
 

AGENT J

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yes its true some woman should never have kids
its also true that millions of woman have felt obligated and been driven by their morals and responsibility to have abortions, cant prove these women wrong. Their opinion is just as good as the opinion of women who feel its responsible not to have an abortion.

Its great we live in a country that doesnt force wither opinion on the other side.
 

mac

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I don't know the laws, but I do know it's not good for children to be shuffled around like livestock. To have a child for 3 years then give it up for adoption is hard on the child.

Death is hard in them too.
 

CanadaJohn

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"A Texas woman has been arrested after trying to use Craigslist to dump off her unwanted 3-year-old son. Stephanie Redus, 29, told police she'd been suffering from depression and anxiety in the days before posting the ad, but she couldn't take medication because she's pregnant with another child."

snip

"Earlier this year, 22-year-old Oklahoma mom Misty Van Horn attempted to sell her kids via a Facebook auction. The price tag for her 10-month-old girl was $1,000, but for $4,000 she'd also toss her 2-year-old into the deal. Her goal was apparently to raise enough money to bail her boyfriend out of jail."


The Daily Dot - Mom tries to get rid of 3-year-old son on Craigslist


Oh, but this is so much better than having an early term abortion.... < / sarcasm>

So, in your mind, the irresponsible behaviour of these two women is grounds for suggesting that their childrens' lives are valueless and should have been terminated before they drew their first breathes, even though there is no suggestion that these three children are in any way responsible for the actions of their mothers?

Gee, pardon me for not agreeing - I'm more inclined to believe that the life of an adult woman who would hold this view is far less of value than the lives of any or all of these three children.

You should be ashamed to express such views - I'm ashamed for you.
 

Scrabaholic

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So, in your mind, the irresponsible behaviour of these two women is grounds for suggesting that their childrens' lives are valueless and should have been terminated before they drew their first breathes, even though there is no suggestion that these three children are in any way responsible for the actions of their mothers?

Gee, pardon me for not agreeing - I'm more inclined to believe that the life of an adult woman who would hold this view is far less of value than the lives of any or all of these three children.

You should be ashamed to express such views - I'm ashamed for you.

You should be ashamed of what you just said. I'm ashamed for you.
 

specklebang

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I don't think thats what he has implied at all.

What's implied is that having children should be a thought through process as opposed to just not liking condoms. If I were running the world (I'm not yet) you would need a permit to have a child. You would have to pony up some money for that child's social savings account (or whatever you want to call it). You would get counseling and a financial analysis. Then, if appropriate, you could have a child.

Society seems to view children as a gift from god. But god doesn't finance your children. They cost a fortune. They get sick. They **** in their pants. They have to be educated and disciplined. People having children should know and then embrace the responsibilities.

I had the good fortune to be born to parents who wanted me and planned for me (and my sister 5 years later). Everybody should be born into the same circumstances. My Father was a Capitan in the US Army at the time of my birth. Didn't pay well back then but it was a steady job at least.





So, in your mind, the irresponsible behaviour of these two women is grounds for suggesting that their childrens' lives are valueless and should have been terminated before they drew their first breathes, even though there is no suggestion that these three children are in any way responsible for the actions of their mothers?

Gee, pardon me for not agreeing - I'm more inclined to believe that the life of an adult woman who would hold this view is far less of value than the lives of any or all of these three children.

You should be ashamed to express such views - I'm ashamed for you.
 

CanadaJohn

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I don't think thats what he has implied at all.

What's implied is that having children should be a thought through process as opposed to just not liking condoms. If I were running the world (I'm not yet) you would need a permit to have a child. You would have to pony up some money for that child's social savings account (or whatever you want to call it). You would get counseling and a financial analysis. Then, if appropriate, you could have a child.

Society seems to view children as a gift from god. But god doesn't finance your children. They cost a fortune. They get sick. They **** in their pants. They have to be educated and disciplined. People having children should know and then embrace the responsibilities.

I had the good fortune to be born to parents who wanted me and planned for me (and my sister 5 years later). Everybody should be born into the same circumstances. My Father was a Capitan in the US Army at the time of my birth. Didn't pay well back then but it was a steady job at least.

I appreciate your comments, but sorry, in the OP she said that either the women or the children or the world or all three would be better off if the three children had been aborted rather than have the mothers not want them or try to sell them. That says to me that she considers a child that is not wanted by his/her mother is valueless and better if he/she didn't exist. To me, that's a pretty sick view of the world and children and indicative of the me-now mentality of many people in today's society. Having children is a natural impulse but it's also a sacrafice - you give up much of your life to secure and promote the life of your child. Bout time irresponsible people started to realize this and not take it out on innocent children.
 

JayDubya

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Great. What a coincidence - not everyone has to get pregnant.

Also, being in the adoption / fostering system does not in any way seem to be less favorable than death... when someone in that system becomes an adult they are free to kill themselves if they disagree with that mildly paternalistic statement.
 

specklebang

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That's the key part I bolded below.

I appreciate your comments, but sorry, in the OP she said that either the women or the children or the world or all three would be better off if the three children had been aborted rather than have the mothers not want them or try to sell them. That says to me that she considers a child that is not wanted by his/her mother is valueless and better if he/she didn't exist. To me, that's a pretty sick view of the world and children and indicative of the me-now mentality of many people in today's society. Having children is a natural impulse but it's also a sacrafice - you give up much of your life to secure and promote the life of your child. Bout time irresponsible people started to realize this and not take it out on innocent children.

These children have a long, hard road ahead. Both they and their society would have been better off if they were unborn. My section of the rant was that children should be by formal permit, not by some impulse of the genitalia.

In my vision, abortion would be exceedingly rare. At first blush, you might think it would increase since having a child without a permit would have consequences that would encourage people not to generate pregnancies i the first place.

I'm respectfully aware that you value "human life" as something sacred. I don't share your view in all ways and at all times. Neither of us is "right", we just have differing opinions.

But I think we may be closer in agreement that once born, children are supposed to be a responsibility and responsibilities that visible should be allowed for. At present, nobody seems to understand this and society rewards those who make poor choices.
 

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That's the key part I bolded below.



These children have a long, hard road ahead. Both they and their society would have been better off if they were unborn. My section of the rant was that children should be by formal permit, not by some impulse of the genitalia.

In my vision, abortion would be exceedingly rare. At first blush, you might think it would increase since having a child without a permit would have consequences that would encourage people not to generate pregnancies i the first place.

I'm respectfully aware that you value "human life" as something sacred. I don't share your view in all ways and at all times. Neither of us is "right", we just have differing opinions.

But I think we may be closer in agreement that once born, children are supposed to be a responsibility and responsibilities that visible should be allowed for. At present, nobody seems to understand this and society rewards those who make poor choices.

I don't disagree with what you've said - I do, indeed, hold life sacred - and while I consider myself pro-choice, meaning I respect a person's right to chose their own path in life, I'm also pro-life and I abhor any free choice that harms another when it's solely made because the choice protects one's lifestyle as opposed to one's life.

That said, this OP isn't about choice and isn't about responsibilities. The author clearly makes the value judgement that three children who are alive today would be better off never to have existed. I'm not prepared to just toss away as useless the lives of three children not yet at school age let alone what their potential in this life may be. I've seen many children who've grown to out produce and out perform the parents who conceived them. I'm not prepared to say that these three children can't and won't surpass their sorry excuses for mothers - in fact, I'm prepared to bet they will.
 
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