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Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ???

akyron

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

Fantasea said:
No fault divorce, available to all in the US is even easier. You can even buy a kit at many internet sites with all the forms and instructions.


I do not believe it can get much easier than writing it and saying it.
The woman need not be present or agree either.
 

Montalban

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

akyron said:
Wow Montalban that was a long post.
My apologies, and I've got much more where that came from; especially on Muhammed and his under-aged bride Aisha (she was nine when he 'consumated' the marriage).
akyron said:
I wish you had just summarized and provided the links instead of swamping us. It was interesting though.
Thanks. I seem to be only able to write in the 'sledge-hammer' style of posting.
akyron said:
Allow me to summarize:
Religious Fanatics=Nutballs
Be careful what you say:
It's most often the case that apologists for Islam cite 'bad' Christians. For instance, I am aware that King John of England married an eleven year old (maybe 13's old). However NO ONE looks up to King John as an example of behaviour for all time. Muslims look to Muhammed.

akyron said:
MY favorite part was the Fatwah of the week
example: I never knew that is not good to do istinja with your right hand, I have been trying note to use my left hand for Istinja, but I can't seem to reach the back area and clean myself properly with my left hand, so I then finish off with my right hand, is that ok, since I know I wasn't able to clean properly with my left? I'm so confused.
The answer is even funnier
Thanks for that. When you consider that all of the references are from English-speaking sites, I shudder to think of what's being passed off to Muslims in Arabic.

I'll try to give you just the links for some interesting things about Aisha and marriage as it's a wee bit off-topic. I apologise in advance if any links are now dead.

If a girl is pre-pubescent, she's still able to be married off
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737
The Appropriate Age for Marriage
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html
Marriage at an early age
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

And here's another interesting set of links
http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_07.rm



http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_08.rm
 

Montalban

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

akyron said:
Is it acceptable in Islam, when husband divorcing his wife by just writing a statement of divorce without witness? Would not be necessary to have two witnesses when husband divorcing wife?

Nope. You have to say it as you write it. Cheaper than a lawyer eh?
Write I divorce <insert ex wife here>. Say" I divorce <insert ex-wife here."
Shoot her in the head if necessary. IE She puts up a fuss when you kick her out in the street.

Writing the word divorce is one of the metaphors of divorce, so divorce does not take effect [by writing it] unless it is accompanied by intention according to the view of most preponderant opinion of scholars, may Allaah have mercy on them. If someone writes the word divorce while uttering it, then it takes effect.

Well that was easy. Having witnesses is desirable though if you can get a couple of your buddies to come over and help you deal with her.

Nice religion. Not!
I am amazed by the fact that women in the west make up the majority of converts.
When a Muslim man martyrs himself for his faith, he gets 77 virgins to wait on him, and his wife, well she gets to be with him also!
 

Montalban

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

akyron said:
I do not believe it can get much easier than writing it and saying it.
The woman need not be present or agree either.
It is true that in some points in time Christians could marry by proxy. This was never the 'rule' whereas the Islamic example is.

A woman's testimony is worth 1/4 that of a man's.

A woman who wants to prosecute a rape needs four witnesses (to the rape). These must be men, and they must be Muslim (because non-Muslims can't testify against Muslims).

A case in Nigeria a few years back became quite famous. An un-married woman was raped by a man. The prosecution failed to gather the appropriate number of witnessess and the case could not proceed. She had become pregnant by the rape and as she showed the obvious signs of this, and as she was un-married, she was charged with adultery and faced execution.

Only because of an international uproar was she allowed to leave the country.
 

bellisaurius

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

By quaranic standards considering female testimony, the actual rule is:

"O believers, when you contract a debt one upon another for a stated term, write it down, and let a scribe write it down between you justly, and let not any scribe refuse to write it down, as God has taught him; so let him write, and let the debtor dictate, and let him fear God his Lord and not diminish anything of it.....And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witnesses as you approve of, that if one of the two errs the other will remind her; and let the witnesses not refuse, whenever they are summoned.....And fear God; God teaches you, and God has knowledge of everything. (emphasis added) (Q. 2:282) "

Which applies to a particular circumstance about property. In fact, it seems to apply in particular to a woman's memory (which is not a bad an implication as saying women aren't as important as men, merely more likely to forget. And what woman in america doesn't have the same feeling about men?). Later, in the hadith literature (kind of the commentary to the koran), a belief begins to show through (which, given hadith literature is given about the status of papal statements, isn't at the full level of scripture, means one can't hold it against the religion as against the person who wrote it and the culture that expounds on it) that women aren't as reliable in men in most court cases, which violates some rules about divorce that are in the koran.

Other religions seem to maintain text and practices that have a similar view of women. They may not neccessarily view them as less then men, but they still may veiw them as less reliable in certain circumstances. For example, women are not allowed to give evidence in rabbinical courts, or women aren't allowed to become priests, or that in the bible a woman couldn't be held for contracts made (see numbers30:2-15). This line has been a part of western jurisprudence until recently (and considering the line was about women living in their father's household, may have been an innapropriate use, much like the use of the quaranic statement as it became interpreted through existing custom),
 

Fantasea

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

bellisaurius said:
By quaranic standards considering female testimony, the actual rule is:

"O believers, when you contract a debt one upon another for a stated term, write it down, and let a scribe write it down between you justly, and let not any scribe refuse to write it down, as God has taught him; so let him write, and let the debtor dictate, and let him fear God his Lord and not diminish anything of it.....And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witnesses as you approve of, that if one of the two errs the other will remind her; and let the witnesses not refuse, whenever they are summoned.....And fear God; God teaches you, and God has knowledge of everything. (emphasis added) (Q. 2:282) "

Which applies to a particular circumstance about property. In fact, it seems to apply in particular to a woman's memory (which is not a bad an implication as saying women aren't as important as men, merely more likely to forget. And what woman in america doesn't have the same feeling about men?). Later, in the hadith literature (kind of the commentary to the koran), a belief begins to show through (which, given hadith literature is given about the status of papal statements, isn't at the full level of scripture, means one can't hold it against the religion as against the person who wrote it and the culture that expounds on it) that women aren't as reliable in men in most court cases, which violates some rules about divorce that are in the koran.

Other religions seem to maintain text and practices that have a similar view of women. They may not neccessarily view them as less then men, but they still may veiw them as less reliable in certain circumstances. For example, women are not allowed to give evidence in rabbinical courts, or women aren't allowed to become priests, or that in the bible a woman couldn't be held for contracts made (see numbers30:2-15). This line has been a part of western jurisprudence until recently (and considering the line was about women living in their father's household, may have been an innapropriate use, much like the use of the quaranic statement as it became interpreted through existing custom),
I wonder what it was that caused women to be held in such low esteem in those days?
 

bellisaurius

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

"I wonder what it was that caused women to be held in such low esteem in those days?"

It's always hard to tell these things. When one considers that our primary historical documents are written by men, and probably geeky ones (like many of us), a certain "I can't get a good date syndrome" could be a factor in their portrayl.

I usually don't like to psychoanalyze writing, but with the written word in religion, the fact that a completely seperate often aesthetic class worte it has to be factored in somewhere. The fact it turned out to be popular with the common peeps was probably a path of least resistance issue, ie as a man if I can gain comparative advantage over a woman -or any other rival- I probably will.
 

akyron

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

26 X World Champs said:
Do you have any clue how bigoted your last two posts were? It's comments like what you've written that makes all of our lives more dangerous...and prove again that that bigotry in the USA is equal to bigotry in all the countries that hate the USA....
No. Not really. Are you experiencing a ton of embarassment?
I guess you never heard of a heated argument. It wasnt an comment it was an observation and a theory. Apparently one that has some merit or scientists would not be funding studies into it.







"Anger in the Workplace: Aversive Environments and Anger/Aggression"

©George F. Rhoades, Jr., Ph.D.

Research has shown us that our environments can in fact promote violence or be associated with aggression. Anderson (1987) was able to study the relationship between uncomfortably hot temperatures and aggressive behaviors. The first study showed that violent crimes were more prevalent in the hotter quarters of the year and in hotter years. This temperature-crime relationship was found to be stronger for violent crime rather than nonviolent crime. The second study showed that the "differences among cities in violent crime" were "related to the hotness of the cities; this effect was...stronger for violent that for nonviolent crimes" (p. 1161). Violent crimes were defined as murder, rape and assault. The nonviolent crimes were defined as robbery, burglary, larceny-theft and motor vehicle theft. In contrast, Berkowitz, Cochran & Embree (1981) have shown in an experiment that painful cold can also incite aggression, with the intent or aim to do harm.



Rotton and his associates (Rotton, Barry, Frey & Soler, 1978; Rotton, Frey, Barry, Milligan, & Fitzpatrick, 1979) have shown in laboratory experiments that subjects exposed to foul smells, rated themselves as feeling more aggressive and were also seen as more punitive to a fellow student than the other subjects breathing normal air. Increased hostility has also been reported to air pollutants such as cigarette smoke (Zillmann, Baron, and Tamborini, 1981) and even the rate of violent crime has been seen as having increased with the increase of air pollution (Rotton & Frey, 1985).



This brief look at temperature and air pollution is to emphasize that it is important to consider the work environment in the control of work anger and violence. Anger may seen as both physical tension in the body and a cognitive view of the world as either frustrating, irritating, insulting, unfair and/or assaultive. Any situation in the workplace that increases physical tension would thus prime people for anger. When a work place is uncomfortable in regards to temperature, crowding, lack of privacy, etc., tensions often tend to rise. When a person is already stressed or has a high level of tension, it is considerably easier to quickly get angry when there is something perceived as a frustration, irritation, insult, unfair or an assault.
Employers that manage work environments that help to insure the physical comfort (in contrast to increasing the tension) of their employees have laid a good foundation for better controlling anger and violence in the workplace.


Will global warming inflame our tempers?
If hot temperatures have a direct effect on violent behavior, then hotter years should (on average) produce higher violent crime rates. This is exactly what happened. The combined murder-and-assault rate was consistently higher in hotter years than in cooler ones. These results occurred even when the data were statistically controlled for the poverty rate, age shifts in the U.S. population and the general upward drift of violent crime during the period
 

alienken

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

Akyron, I think your on to something for two reasons. 1.I have days when I am stuck in a vehicle with no AC. All day in Houston traffic the heat doubles my road rage aggravation. By the end of the day I am looking for a reason to punch someone! 2. I like agreeing with people that 26x disagrees with.
 

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

bellisaurius said:
By quaranic standards considering female testimony, the actual rule is:

"O believers, when you contract a debt one upon another for a stated term, write it down, and let a scribe write it down between you justly, and let not any scribe refuse to write it down, as God has taught him; so let him write, and let the debtor dictate, and let him fear God his Lord and not diminish anything of it.....And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witnesses as you approve of, that if one of the two errs the other will remind her; and let the witnesses not refuse, whenever they are summoned.....And fear God; God teaches you, and God has knowledge of everything. (emphasis added) (Q. 2:282) "

Which applies to a particular circumstance about property. In fact, it seems to apply in particular to a woman's memory (which is not a bad an implication as saying women aren't as important as men, merely more likely to forget. And what woman in america doesn't have the same feeling about men?). Later, in the hadith literature (kind of the commentary to the koran), a belief begins to show through (which, given hadith literature is given about the status of papal statements, isn't at the full level of scripture, means one can't hold it against the religion as against the person who wrote it and the culture that expounds on it) that women aren't as reliable in men in most court cases, which violates some rules about divorce that are in the koran.
Yes, the rule refers to a contract specifically, however it is applied to almost all court cases. It is because Muslims believe that a woman is inferior. IF you want to know the Muslim ideal, ask a Muslim. There's an advice site at the site
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng
Question #1105: Does Islam regard men and women as equal?
which says in part
"Testimony or bearing witness. The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women"
and
"The fact that women are lacking in reason does not mean that they are crazy, rather their reason is often overtaken by their emotions, and this happens to women more often than it happens to men. No one would deny this except one who is arrogant."
NOTE this is in an English-language site. I can only speculate how 'progressive' advice is given to Arab-speakers.

You also might like, for your own information, to have a look at
Question #10680: What are the rights of the husband and what are the rights of the wife?

Which is the rights of a man over his wife, including the right to use her to satisfy himself sexually....
"Making herself available to her husband. One of the rights that the husband has over his wife is that he should be able to enjoy her (physically). If he marries a woman and she is able to have intercourse, she is obliged to submit herself to him according to the contract, if he asks her. That is after he gives her the immediate mahr, and gives her some time – two or three days, if she asks for that – to sort herself out, because that is something that she needs, and because that is not too long and is customary.

If a wife refuses to respond to her husband’s request for intercourse, she has done something haraam and has committed a major sin, unless she has a valid shar’i excuse such as menses, obligatory fasting, sickness, etc."
 
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bellisaurius

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

Being an engineer, I get to work around a lot of muslims, and so far they seem to have the traditional american macho talk about the wife at home, but in their actions they're about as whipped as the rest of us.
 

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The "No true Scotsman" debate

bellisaurius said:
Being an engineer, I get to work around a lot of Muslims, and so far they seem to have the traditional American macho talk about the wife at home, but in their actions they're about as whipped as the rest of us.
Certainly the case that there are 'good' Muslims is a classic one. I have many neighbours who are good neighbours, and they are Muslims too.

However I am not talking about individuals, but 'ideals'. Thus for instance we can condemn Nazism, even in the face of the fact that there were some very good people who were Nazis; the best known being Oscar Schindler - Nazi Party member since the 1930s. Now despite this individual instance, and the fact that not all Nazis took an actual role in exterminating the Jews, we can examine the ideology of the Nazis, and generally most of us find this reprehensible.

So, I believe I can examine Islam; who's avowed ideal man is Muhammad himself. Thus I can show that from primary sources (Hadith) he 'consummated a marriage with a nine year old girl (A), I can show other secondary sources (B), and I can look at what sort of advice modern Muslims are being given by Muslim expert sites (C).
A

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah's Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

B

FROM THE HISTORY OF TABARI
(Tabari wrote the most authentic Islamic history. It covers 39 volumes. Tabari was one of the greatest Islamic scholars and the greatest Islamic Historian.)
From Tabari, volume 7, page 7:
"....my marriage (to Muhammad) was consummated when I was nine....."
From Tabari, volume 9, page 131
"Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me"......(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died.
(I also want to provide evidence from the best Islamic Ency. available in English, and other Islamic writers. They also acknowledge Aisha's age being 9.)
FROM THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF ISLAM, under "Aisha". (pub. by E.J. Brill).
"Some time after the death of Khadija, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either Aisha, the 6 year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda Zama, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that Aisha should marry Djubayr Mutim, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and Muhammad was betrothed to Aisha.... The marriage was not consummated until some months after the Hidjra, (in April 623, 624). Aisha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Median. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time and took her toys to her new home."
From the Muslim book "WOMEN IN ISLAM" by Said Abjullah Seif-Al-Hatimy, published by Islamic Publications in Lahore Pakistan:
"...(Aisha) She was the youngest of his wives. It is said that she was nine years of age when he married her."

also quoted at an anti-Islamic site...

"The Prophet consummated his marriage with A'isha when she was nine and this was considered the age of consent for a long time."
http://www.hraic.org/women_in_islam.html
also at
http://www.amcoptic.com/read_for_u/women_and_islam.htm


“3 – ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with her)


The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her in Shawwaal of the tenth year of the Prophethood. Ibn Sa’d, 8/58-59. She herself said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3894; Muslim, 1422. Al-Bukhaari (5077) also narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (S) (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin apart form her.”

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=47072&dgn=4



C

"According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a minor.
It is important for you, in your situation, to consider the age difference reservation expressed by your wife.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai"
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737

Here's some more good Islamic advice...
The Appropriate Age for Marriage
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html

Duty of parents

http://www.islam.tc/social_conduct/social_conduct_of_a_muslim.html

Marriage before 9 years old
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

Consumating a marriage as soon as she's 'ready for it'

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1493&dgn=4



Thus we can see from the 'example' of Muhammed what sort of 'ideal' Islam supports. And we can judge it from these facts. This does not mean that all Muslims will do this, and in fact many may not even be aware of these facts.
 

Montalban

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And regarding violence

And to the topic at hand; regarding violence we can see that this ideal man, Muhammed spends much time talking of hate and war and violence.
"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:8 )

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home (apart from those that suffer a grave impediment) are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted; he is an infidel.'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 32)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'Then go to the persons who do not join the congregational prayer and order their homes to be burnt...'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 234)
"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17)
"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)

There doesn't seem to be an Islamic equivalent of ‘turn the other cheek’, or ‘blessed are the peacemakers’. What about ‘love thy neighbour’? (Mat 5:43)*
One of the closes texts you’ll find is Sura 8:61
“But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.”
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=8

This means, if your enemy has stopped fighting you, and you want to stop fighting, then okay, call a halt to hostilities.

The closest to 'love thy neighbour' are passages about how you should treat your 'brother' and by this they mean another Muslim.

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (Koran 5:51)
"O ye who believe! Take not for friends Unbelievers (non-Muslims) rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
(Koran 4:144)
"Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide."
(Koran 5:80)

I must stress that these are teachings revered by Muslims! They saw it as clever that Muhammed massacred PoWs; that it was prudent that he order assassinations; that he was a real man that he slept with so many women!

Assassinations
During his live, Muhammed commended people who killed his personal enemies; one was a woman who lampooned him with witty poetry

"Muhammad And His Personal Enemies
Ka`b bin al-Ashraf
Sallam Ibn Abu'l-Huqayq (Abu Rafi)
Al-Nadr bin al-Harith
`Uqba bin Abi Mu`ayt
`Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul al-`Aufi
Umaiya bin Khalaf Abi Safwan
`Amr b. Jihash
An anonymous man
Ibn Sunayna
Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh
Abu `Afak
`Asma' Bint Marwan

The Meccan Ten:
Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl
Habbar Ibn al-Aswad
Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi
Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh (more detail in the above article)
Al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh
Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami
Hind Bint Utbah
Sarah the mawlat of `Amr Ibn Hashim
Fartana
Qaribah
Al-Yusayr b. Rizam and Khalid b. Sufyan b. Nubayh
Ibn Sunayna"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html
 

bellisaurius

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

Wow, you guys pull out all the guns on this site, montalban. I think I'm going to like it here. It will take me a bit to respond to the breadth of your posts, but hopefully something comes out.
 

Montalban

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

bellisaurius said:
Wow, you guys pull out all the guns on this site, montalban. I think I'm going to like it here. It will take me a bit to respond to the breadth of your posts, but hopefully something comes out.
Sorry, I tend to write big posts; to get it all out.


think happy thoughts


think happy thoughts


think happy thoughts


think happy thoughts


ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
 

akyron

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

alienken said:
Akyron, I think your on to something for two reasons. 1.I have days when I am stuck in a vehicle with no AC. All day in Houston traffic the heat doubles my road rage aggravation. By the end of the day I am looking for a reason to punch someone! 2. I like agreeing with people that 26x disagrees with.


Houston has that humid heat as well. That makes it even MORE uncomfortable.

Oppressive heat+oppressive religion=Violence in the middle east.


Remember 9/11 and those 19 hijackers? Remember Mohammed Atta, who was such a religious Muslim and so worried about modesty that, in his will, he forbade women from attending his funeral? Gee, it’s the same Mohammed Atta who got a lap dance or two from gyrating exotic dancers at Florida’s “Pink Pony” strip club–paying $300 for the pleasure. Other hijackers visited the Olympic Bar strip club in Vegas and hired prostitutes in Boston just prior to the attacks.




A nice cool strip club with hot chicks is where they REALLY wanted to be.
 

Montalban

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

bellisaurius said:
Wow, you guys pull out all the guns on this site, montalban. I think I'm going to like it here. It will take me a bit to respond to the breadth of your posts, but hopefully something comes out.
I thought you were going to debate me on this! :2wave:
 

anomaly

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Re: And regarding violence

Montalban said:
And to the topic at hand; regarding violence we can see that this ideal man, Muhammed spends much time talking of hate and war and violence.
"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:8 )

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home (apart from those that suffer a grave impediment) are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted; he is an infidel.'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 32)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'Then go to the persons who do not join the congregational prayer and order their homes to be burnt...'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 234)
"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17)
"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)

There doesn't seem to be an Islamic equivalent of ‘turn the other cheek’, or ‘blessed are the peacemakers’. What about ‘love thy neighbour’? (Mat 5:43)*
One of the closes texts you’ll find is Sura 8:61
“But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.”
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=8

This means, if your enemy has stopped fighting you, and you want to stop fighting, then okay, call a halt to hostilities.

The closest to 'love thy neighbour' are passages about how you should treat your 'brother' and by this they mean another Muslim.

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (Koran 5:51)
"O ye who believe! Take not for friends Unbelievers (non-Muslims) rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
(Koran 4:144)
"Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide."
(Koran 5:80)

I must stress that these are teachings revered by Muslims! They saw it as clever that Muhammed massacred PoWs; that it was prudent that he order assassinations; that he was a real man that he slept with so many women!

Assassinations
During his live, Muhammed commended people who killed his personal enemies; one was a woman who lampooned him with witty poetry

"Muhammad And His Personal Enemies
Ka`b bin al-Ashraf
Sallam Ibn Abu'l-Huqayq (Abu Rafi)
Al-Nadr bin al-Harith
`Uqba bin Abi Mu`ayt
`Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul al-`Aufi
Umaiya bin Khalaf Abi Safwan
`Amr b. Jihash
An anonymous man
Ibn Sunayna
Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh
Abu `Afak
`Asma' Bint Marwan

The Meccan Ten:
Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl
Habbar Ibn al-Aswad
Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi
Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh (more detail in the above article)
Al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh
Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami
Hind Bint Utbah
Sarah the mawlat of `Amr Ibn Hashim
Fartana
Qaribah
Al-Yusayr b. Rizam and Khalid b. Sufyan b. Nubayh
Ibn Sunayna"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html
And so you suggest converting them to Christianity? If it is ancient history, like that cited in the Koran, which you despise, look at the Christians' glorious and 'peaceful' history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, nothing but peace and love, both of them. Do not be so quick to judge others based on their professed faith. Perhaps, instead of picking and choosing, it is time to admit it: all organized religion is, in the end, evil. People like the expression 'toeing the party line', but no one mentions toeing the religious line. Being bound by God, rather than man, is quite powerful, and most religions use this power to threaten its members, and in the end punishing free will. To pick and choose is simply a matter of faith, of belief. And it just so happens that you have chosen Christianity, a religion that is, in this case, your very tool of oppression.

For these reasons, I suggest that if we cannot abolish organized religion, we must completely tolerate the religions of others. The only ones who should be allowed to criticize a particular faith should be those who are believers in the said faith. But Christians criticizing the faith of Islam is uncalled for, and it only hurts Christianity, as it attracts radical Muslims who only wish to destroy you. Quite unwise, IMO.
 

vandree

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

it is time to admit it: all organized religion is, in the end, evil.

He is a wise man who invented God.
Plato
 

Montalban

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Wrong target

anomaly said:
And so you suggest converting them to Christianity?
Couldn't hurt :)
anomaly said:
If it is ancient history, like that cited in the Koran, which you despise, look at the Christians' glorious and 'peaceful' history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, nothing but peace and love, both of them.
It is a nonsense argument you propose. You are judging in fact mixing up two very different things; Christianity and Christians. Take someone I'll called "John Doe". He is a Christian. He goes out and kills 10 people. If you can cite which of Christ's teachings he used to 'justify' his actions, then you can examine Christianity by his actions, else it's as relevant as me claiming that the USA is against human life, based on the fact that some Americans have gone to war.
Conversely, by your rationale, we can't condemn Nazism based on the fact that an individual Nazi, such as Oskar Schilder was an exceptionally good person, who despite being a Nazi Party member of some years saved about 1,000 Jews.
Yours is a very mixed up rationale.
anomaly said:
Do not be so quick to judge others based on their professed faith. Perhaps, instead of picking and choosing, it is time to admit it: all organized religion is, in the end, evil.
Ah, well here then we have the heart of your 'argument'; you're just anti-religious. So let's condemn all ideologies of faith, based on the fact that some members of these faiths do horrendous things.
Note in post 152 I didn't just 'pick and choose' Islamic text. I cited original Islamic text plus Islamic advice sites that are now giving advice on how Muslims should behave. Again this simple little fact (you overlooking this) makes your comments what they are. It is not a mere quote mine of taking scripture out of context; because I cited Muslims saying how these texts should be applied.
anomaly said:
People like the expression 'toeing the party line', but no one mentions toeing the religious line. Being bound by God, rather than man, is quite powerful, and most religions use this power to threaten its members, and in the end punishing free will. To pick and choose is simply a matter of faith, of belief. And it just so happens that you have chosen Christianity, a religion that is, in this case, your very tool of oppression.
How is Christianity oppressive? Again it's a silly argument. The USA is a democracy. It bombs Iraq, therefore democracy is oppressive! That is the line of 'logic' you take (and in this case I use 'logic' in the most liberal of definitions). Cite me the teachings of Jesus you believe to be oppressive, and we can go on from there.
anomaly said:
For these reasons, I suggest that if we cannot abolish organized religion, we must completely tolerate the religions of others. The only ones who should be allowed to criticize a particular faith should be those who are believers in the said faith.
Would you tolerate any of the following religious practices?
suttee - carried out, but not exclusive to Hindus it is the practice of throwing a widow onto a funeral pyre of her late husband, so that she can continue to serve him in the next life
female genital mutilation - also known as clitorotomy, the practice of removing a girls clitoris in order to make her less likely to seek extra-marital sex; a practice done by many African and Middle Eastern cultures (not exclusive to Muslims)
paedophilia - The Children of God, aka "The Family" (arguably a 'cult' and not a religion) believe in 'free love' to the degree that children are initiated into sexual practices... all at the behest of their late founder.
anomaly said:
But Christians criticizing the faith of Islam is uncalled for, and it only hurts Christianity, as it attracts radical Muslims who only wish to destroy you. Quite unwise, IMO.
Well considering you make several unconnected leaps IMO, your in effect saying no one has the right to be critical of anyone else; except perhaps yourself?

:2razz:
 

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

vandree said:
He is a wise man who invented God.
Plato
Voltaire said something on the same lines; something like "If there was no God, man would need to invent Him".
 

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

Sure, all Muslims aren't terrorists. All criminals aren't Democrats, but they almost always poll in favor Democrats, just as Muslim polls nearly always show overwhelming support for Bin Laden.

Remember Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11?

Islam is a bloody violent religion at its core. Unlike (YES I SAID UNLIKE) Christianity, violence doesn't come from misguided followers who miss the message. Islam TEACHES violence. If a Muslim slaughters an infidel, all it indicates is that they read the Koran.
 

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

aquapub said:
Sure, all Muslims aren't terrorists. All criminals aren't Democrats, but they almost always poll in favor Democrats, just as Muslim polls nearly always show overwhelming support for Bin Laden.

Remember Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11?

Islam is a bloody violent religion at its core. Unlike (YES I SAID UNLIKE) Christianity, violence doesn't come from misguided followers who miss the message. Islam TEACHES violence. If a Muslim slaughters an infidel, all it indicates is that they read the Koran.
This is just terrible aqua.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Re: Not all Musulims are TERRORIEST BUT ?

aquapub said:
Sure, all Muslims aren't terrorists. All criminals aren't Democrats, but they almost always poll in favor Democrats, just as Muslim polls nearly always show overwhelming support for Bin Laden.

Remember Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11?

Islam is a bloody violent religion at its core. Unlike (YES I SAID UNLIKE) Christianity, violence doesn't come from misguided followers who miss the message. Islam TEACHES violence. If a Muslim slaughters an infidel, all it indicates is that they read the Koran.
I agree with Garza. This is disgusting.
 

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Re: Wrong target

Montalban said:
Couldn't hurt :)

It is a nonsense argument you propose. You are judging in fact mixing up two very different things; Christianity and Christians. Take someone I'll called "John Doe". He is a Christian. He goes out and kills 10 people. If you can cite which of Christ's teachings he used to 'justify' his actions, then you can examine Christianity by his actions, else it's as relevant as me claiming that the USA is against human life, based on the fact that some Americans have gone to war.
Conversely, by your rationale, we can't condemn Nazism based on the fact that an individual Nazi, such as Oskar Schilder was an exceptionally good person, who despite being a Nazi Party member of some years saved about 1,000 Jews.
Yours is a very mixed up rationale.

Ah, well here then we have the heart of your 'argument'; you're just anti-religious. So let's condemn all ideologies of faith, based on the fact that some members of these faiths do horrendous things.
Note in post 152 I didn't just 'pick and choose' Islamic text. I cited original Islamic text plus Islamic advice sites that are now giving advice on how Muslims should behave. Again this simple little fact (you overlooking this) makes your comments what they are. It is not a mere quote mine of taking scripture out of context; because I cited Muslims saying how these texts should be applied.

How is Christianity oppressive? Again it's a silly argument. The USA is a democracy. It bombs Iraq, therefore democracy is oppressive! That is the line of 'logic' you take (and in this case I use 'logic' in the most liberal of definitions). Cite me the teachings of Jesus you believe to be oppressive, and we can go on from there.

Would you tolerate any of the following religious practices?
suttee - carried out, but not exclusive to Hindus it is the practice of throwing a widow onto a funeral pyre of her late husband, so that she can continue to serve him in the next life
female genital mutilation - also known as clitorotomy, the practice of removing a girls clitoris in order to make her less likely to seek extra-marital sex; a practice done by many African and Middle Eastern cultures (not exclusive to Muslims)
paedophilia - The Children of God, aka "The Family" (arguably a 'cult' and not a religion) believe in 'free love' to the degree that children are initiated into sexual practices... all at the behest of their late founder.

Well considering you make several unconnected leaps IMO, your in effect saying no one has the right to be critical of anyone else; except perhaps yourself?

:2razz:
Religious intolerance is, my friend, perhaps the lowest thing we find in our society today. Plain and simple. Your mind is perverted by the very teachings you swear by, it is distorted by them, and your sense of cultural norms will obviously be quite different than one of another culture. Your lack of understanding is troubling.

What I meant in my last little paragraph is that your sick religious intolerance, and your utter arrogance of your own religion, will lead to more radical Islamists, terrorists if you will. You may be able to pick and choose which messages of the Koran to quote, but this is no sign of wisdom, only ignorance.
 
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