No Muslim No Cry…

[Tashah]

was/is there any reason for you to remind that to me or us ? thanks tho, i will keep it in my mind.

You yourself asked me what I meant. I told you plainly.

 

[soguks]

I'll explain. Attacks and ethnic/racial slurs are not allowed here. This prohibition is not confined to just the n-word. We do however, allow respectful discussion on the origin, the etymology, and the history of such words.

thanks for this, i am sure you have some logical reasons to do so, but my point was not that, even what you said is right 100%. she was just contradicting herself, and now trying to downplay the subject. again thanks for your explanation.

 

[Laila]

actually you got my point, albeit reluctantly. thanks for this, again.

Still don't see it but whatever :shrug:

 

[soguks]

Still don't see it but whatever :shrug:

whatever = having no word logical to say. i am sure you will learn somthing new each day, if you keep going on in this way.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

I don't call it accusation about the nature of a religion, I call it spreading hatret. If the target is people who choose Islam, It is more than accusation. Why should a person need support to change their religion?

Yet there are normal missioners, who distribute Bible on the streets. If one say, you believe in hatret, you should be a peacefull person, it is not respectfull way of communications. One should introduce Christianity in fair ways.

I just use my right to disaprove, Atacking competitive religion in this way as a marketing strategy is spreading hatret in my sense. They market Islam as evil, or call it accusation which is the same way of marketing. It is not communication. It is unfair competition.

I find most of the accusations ridiculous. I want to adhere their ridiculity to their ignorance not to their hatret (if they have). They can decive muslim people who has not much informations about their religions.

You are confusing respect and hatred, they are two different things. You may not respect how this organisation engages with muslims that do not want to be part of islam any more, but that in itself is not hatred. Secondly, you have not pointed to anything specific that suggests that this organisation is engaging in spiteful or hate filled language.

I'll put it this way do you believe in the right of muslims to leave islam?

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Why should we respect Islam, if it is so fragile that any simple insult or criticism can cause some of its follows to go awall. If this is the proposition that you are making then I have no respect for a religion where some of its followers will readily turn violent due to any petty comment or action.

Secondly, I am an atheist, what do you think of me? Am I a kafur? Do I get any respect from you or have I committed the ultimate form of shirk in the eyes of Allah?

 

[1069]

Somebody actually said "the less Muslims we have, the better we’re."?? Who the hell talks like that?

I dunno. Hitler?
He probably would've said it in German, though.

 

[1069]

Why should we respect Islam, if it is so fragile that any simple insult or criticism can cause some of its follows to go awall. If this is the proposition that you are making then I have no respect for a religion where some of its followers will readily turn violent due to any petty comment or action.

People persecuted in the recent past often don't immediately recover, and remain unable to accept criticism or mockery for some time, because it stirs up memories of past persecution, and creates perhaps subconscious fears that the persecution is likely to start up again.
I could post some examples of various persecuted minorities in which I've observed this defensiveness, but I'd probably get in trouble.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

People persecuted in the recent past often don't immediately recover, and remain unable to accept criticism or mockery for some time, because it stirs up memories of past persecution, and creates perhaps subconscious fears that the persecution is likely to start up again.
I could post some examples of various persecuted minorities in which I've observed this defensiveness, but I'd probably get in trouble.

Your premise assumes that persecution is the underlying cause. I disagree, during the Mohammed cartoons controversy many of the protestors made it evidently clear why they were engaging in such actions...... And it wasn't because 'some western guy stole my great grandfather's plot of land'.

 

[SgtRock]

I dunno. Hitler?
He probably would've said it in German, though.

Actually Hitler liked muslims. Much like himself they also hated the Jew. Even today many Muslims admire Adolf Hitler. In fact they want to finish what he started.

 

[SgtRock]

In 1943, Amin Al Husseini heads the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslims. It was Hitler's largest SS Division and was responsible for the genocide of Serbians, Gypsies and Jews.

 

[Efendi]

You are confusing respect and hatred, they are two different things. You may not respect how this organisation engages with muslims that do not want to be part of islam any more, but that in itself is not hatred. Secondly, you have not pointed to anything specific that suggests that this organisation is engaging in spiteful or hate filled language.

A and B is a competitor. To increase his sales volume in the market A spread lies about B’s product. I can’t respects A’s attitute anyway. It conflict with my moral value of fairness, and honesty.
I know there can be good friendships between Priest and Imams. I support friendships and communication between religions. So I have no way to respects these unfriendlly behaviours between these religious groups.

I'll put it this way do you believe in the right of muslims to leave islam?

Yes, Anybodies religious choices are not my bussines. Why did you asked this?

Why should we respect Islam, if it is so fragile that any simple insult or criticism can cause some of its follows to go awall. If this is the proposition that you are making then I have no respect for a religion where some of its followers will readily turn violent due to any petty comment or action.

I don’t understand english of this text above.

Secondly, I am an atheist, what do you think of me? Am I a kafur? Do I get any respect from you or have I committed the ultimate form of shirk in the eyes of Allah?

I didn’t judge anybody according to their religion. I didn’t deserve this unmeaningfull emotional reflections. Your religion is your privaty not my bussiness. I am not disrespectfull to anybodies privity and religious choice. I can’t see the sense in your asking this unreasonable question.
If these questions means any judgement, please don’t do that.

 

[soguks]

In 1943, Amin Al Husseini heads the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslims. It was Hitler's largest SS Division and was responsible for the genocide of Serbians, Gypsies and Jews.

i think you are just 'talking', i have got some informtion for you, i hope you have enough time to read this:

Turkey and the Holocaust: Turkey's Role in Rescuing Turkish and European Jewry from Nazi Persecution, 1933-1945


By Stanford J. Shaw,
"While six million Jews were being exterminated by the Nazis, the rescue of some 15,000 Turkish Jews from France, and even of some 100,000 Jews from Eastern Europe might well be considered as relatively insignificant in comparison. It was, however, very significant to the people who were rescued, and above all it showed that, as had been the case for more than five centuries, Turks and Jews continued to help each other in times of great crises."

Turkish diplomats in France spent a good deal of time organizing 'train caravans' to take Turkish Jews back to Turkey. This actually was encouraged by the Vichy government was well as the French authorities in German-occupied France as the only way to make sure that Turkish Jews were not subjected to the anti Jewish laws applied to French Jews, because the Nazi occupation officials themselves were increasingly unhappy about the exemptions and were regularly demanding that they be brought to an end. Thus the French Foreign Ministry wrote to the Turkish Embassy at Vichy on 13 January 1943, after the French finally had accepted the Turkish argument that it was illegal for them to discriminate among Turkish citizens of different religions:

To avoid the application of these measures to Turkish citizens, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs would be disposed to look favorably on the return of the interested parties to their countries of origin.

In the middle of 1943, the Nazi occupying authorities, inspired by Adolph Eichmann, finally issued an ultimatum to Turkey and other neutral countries that they would have to repatriate all their Jewish citizens in France, after which all those who remained would be treated the same as French Jews.

Moderator's Warning:

Edited to comply with Rule 9a

 

[soguks]

Stanford J. Shaw is Professor Emeritus of Turkish History, University of California Los Angeles Professor of Turkish History

Moderator's Warning:

Edited to comply with Rule 9a

 

[Efendi]

Agree, Soguks,

I would like to remind the times Ottomans saved jews from massacre in Spain. The Emperor greet them in the port. There are Spaniard jews in Istanbul, they can still speak spanish.

 

[Orion]

As controversial as it may be, I am glad I live in a country that bans hate speech, whether it be in public announcements, advertising, etc. I know a lot of Americans hate that idea, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think the KKK should be allowed to hold public rallies nor do I believe there should be any kind of demonstration based on discrimination. Hate should be silenced and given no voice. It only fractures society and creates dissent. Groups that don't have the freedom to spread hate usually dwindle and disappear.

 

[Andalublue]

.........Turkey also acted... / ... Turks and Jews continued to help each other in times of great crises.

Stanford J. Shaw is Professor Emeritus of Turkish History, University of California Los Angeles Professor of Turkish History

Thank you for this. Very interesting. I didn't know anything about this.

 

[soguks]

Thank you for this. Very interesting. I didn't know anything about this.

you are welcome, but some people here like Tashah do not like to see some true information ,and cover that ,banning by calling 'Fair-use' violation. i can feel full democracy, freespeech right in my whole body, thanks Tashah !

 

[Degreez]

you are welcome, but some people here like Tashah do not like to see some true information ,and cover that ,banning by calling 'Fair-use' violation. i can feel full democracy, freespeech right in my whole body, thanks Tashah !

That is merely one of the forum rules. You can only post a certain amount of text from a copyrighted source. You don't get infracted for it or anything though.

 

[Andalublue]

you are welcome, but some people here like Tashah do not like to see some true information ,and cover that ,banning by calling 'Fair-use' violation. i can feel full democracy, freespeech right in my whole body, thanks Tashah !

Yeah, don't take it personally. It has nothing to do with content, just a prevention of copyright infringement.

 

[Agent Ferris]

That’s exactly how I understand the US authorities’ current policy towards the Muslim people living within the States. And the shameful bus ads in NYC (FOXNews.com - 'Leaving Islam?' NYC Bus Ads Targeting Disenfranchised Muslims), targeting us, Muslims, to leave Islam, perfectly confirms the fact that it turns easier for the American governments to crush Islam than to work and to solve the problems of Muslims’ integration in the American society. You must admit that Geller’s provocative slogans nicely fit the White House’s policy - “the less Muslims we have, the better we’re”, so I shouldn’t wonder if the advertising campaign was organized on the tip of some special services. As for me, it seems that surely it was…
Here, in States, we were and we are strangers. And it’s a pity.. But do you understand how I, we, all Muslims living here, feel all the scowling glances in the streets? How we feel when for months of trying to get a job, regularly we get the mitten just because we’re Muslim? Do you understand how it is to feel yourself as a social outcast!?
Finally, I’ve visited noted in the ads RefugefromIslam.com where it is written in black and white: “We fight the Sharia law”. That’s a high rate anti-Islamic organization!

Well here's a thought, stop following an ideology in which the only accepted view in all five major sects is that the penalty for apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, and pre-marital sex is capital and/or corporal punishment. Yes we will fight Sharia law, if you want Sharia law then stay the hell out of the west. Get this straight right now pal, the U.S. will not be conforming to suit the needs of Muslim immigrants it is you who will conform to the American society not the other way around, if you don't then you're going to have a very hard road ahead of you. Stop playing the victim, no one is forcing you to adhere to an inherently oppressive ideology which is at odds with the secular liberalism that made this country and the free world what it is. You should leave Islam, not only is there absolutely 0 evidence for it (or any other religion) being correct, but it is inherently at odds with individual liberty, as well as, advancement of the species as a whole.

 

[Agent Ferris]

As far as I know in US you can't argue about Armenian genocide and Holocasust. For example if you denie them you are fined as it is in EU. Am I correct?

No you are not correct.

 

[Agent Ferris]

What if Congress accept it as Genocide?
Denial will be categorized as an insult to someone national values?

No you are incorrect. You have no idea what you are talking about, this isn't ****ing Europe pal you don't have the right not to be offended.

 

[Agent Ferris]

I don't call it accusation about the nature of a religion, I call it spreading hatret. If the target is people who choose Islam, It is more than accusation. Why should a person need support to change their religion?

The same reason any person that has been brainwashed needs help determining reality from delusion.

Yet there are normal missioners, who distribute Bible on the streets. If one say, you believe in hatret, you should be a peacefull person, it is not respectfull way of communications. One should introduce Christianity in fair ways.

I don't have to respect any ideology. Do I hate organizaed religion? Yes I do, and with good reason.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Hopefully it is different than French guarantie on freedom of speech. Are there any constitutional limit to it. For example can anybody support terrorism and say "long live al queda" in US parlemento or congress?

The only limits on the freedom of speech have to do with incitement to violence and/or criminal activity.

The Bad Tendency test - The freedom of speech does not protect disturbances to the public peace, attempts to subvert the government, inciting crime, or corruption of morals. The danger is none the less real and substantial because the effect of a given utterance cannot be seen. Just as with the offense of conspiracy, or other preparatory steps, the government need not wait until the spark has kindled the flame. It can act toward any threat to public order, even those that do so only remotely.

The Clear and Present Danger test - The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre. It does not protect a man from uttering words that have the effect of force. The question in every case is whether the words in such circumstances are such as to create a clear and present danger that will bring about evils the government has a right to prevent. The First Amendment exists to protect the public good as well as individual expression.

The Clear and Probable Danger test - In each case, we must ask whether the gravity of the evil, discounted by its improbability, justifies such invasion of free speech as is necessary to avoid the danger. Contexts too numerable to ponder exist and events are often too remote to foresee. Cases must be decided on an ad hoc, case-by-case basis, considering that the government's reasons for regulation are compelling.

The Brandenburg test - Merely teaching or advocating unpopular ideas must be distinguished from teaching or advocating the duty, necessity, or propriety of acting on those beliefs. The right to speak and organize cannot be abridged no matter if the group's message and purpose are repugnant to American values (such as KKK speech). In order for government to intervene, the speaker must subjectively intend incitement (imminent evil), use words which are likely to produce action (imminent action), and openly encourage or urge incitement (suggesting, for example, it's a duty to commit a crime).

The Brandenburg test is the current standard used to determine what is and is not considered protected speech.