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No Honour Among Thieves

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I think there's a small degree of indirect justice in that evil people sometimes attack other evil people. When we discuss the good versus evil debate we often forget there's an evil versus evil fight going on too. For instance in the ancient world the evil barbarians inflicted casualties on the sinister Romans. Even though many get away with their crimes, what goes around often comes around.
 

Angel

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I think there's a small degree of indirect justice in that evil people sometimes attack other evil people....
There's justice everywhere, in everything, Michael. In a drop of rain. In the death of a sun.
Welcome to the forum.
 

lurchadams

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I think there's a small degree of indirect justice in that evil people sometimes attack other evil people. When we discuss the good versus evil debate we often forget there's an evil versus evil fight going on too. For instance in the ancient world the evil barbarians inflicted casualties on the sinister Romans. Even though many get away with their crimes, what goes around often comes around.

Your OP reminds me of algebra class: When bad things (take negative number) happen to bad people (and add it to another negative number) the result is a good thing (equals a positive).
 

Omniscient

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I think there's a small degree of indirect justice in that evil people sometimes attack other evil people. When we discuss the good versus evil debate we often forget there's an evil versus evil fight going on too. For instance in the ancient world the evil barbarians inflicted casualties on the sinister Romans. Even though many get away with their crimes, what goes around often comes around.

evil is self refuting

good is self developing

hate will ultimately hate even itself. which cancels itself out

love will also love itself, which just concentrates and increases itself

hate eventually leads to love, and love leads to more love

as demonstrated from 3:00 - 3:25 in this song:

F**k Everything (Jon Lajoie) - YouTube
 
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“Lose the battle but win the war: to not achieve a minor victory but at the same time succeed in achieving something much more important.”
-Dictionary

We’re all finite in time. Consequently we’re incapable of seeing the true casualty ratio between good and evil over an eternal length of time. Evil people might win in the short-term but not the long-term. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care about evil people who were attacked by similarly evil people. It’s not about revenge or schadenfreude! I’m simply making the point that evil on the whole can’t truly be said to have won against generally good people seeing as evil itself is internally divided. So we don’t necessarily even need to rely on karma in this life or hell in the afterlife to overcome the problem of evil. Good people don’t attack other good individuals. Therefore mathematical probability dictates that collectively there’ll always be more casualties on the evil side as they have an extra category of evil vs evil victims. Wicked individuals might escape punishment but we’re all sadly mortal so they too will eventually succumb to the pain of death by natural causes.
 
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“Creatures can use freedom for good or evil; evil results from improper creaturely use of freedom. The free will defense solution to the problem of evil provides a basis for claiming that creatures, not God, are culpable for the genuine evil that occurs.”

People need to be functionally free or flexible in order to simply move, perceive objects and to set their long-term goals. So maybe the possibility of evil is an inevitable consequence of the way we can improvise and adapt to the changing environment. It would be like the way thievery is a warped distortion of the otherwise understandable desire to get rewards without wasting time or overexertion and with less effort. So in some respects perhaps the “Universe” wouldn’t be able to remove the thoughts of committing evil by some sinister people even if “it” tried to remove their free will by altering their brain. Free will may not only be required for just self-fulfilment or spiritual objectives. It might be needed for mundane short-term acts like walking where we need to feel and balance the different forces on our legs.

“Not only is fluid motion difficult to have with motors and gears, but the number of legs/pivots touching the ground also has a lot to do with how the robot will function.
When it comes to robots that stand up on a certain number of legs, it is much more common for the robot to come tumbling down to the ground than to be able to maintain balance.”



“Evil as the absence of good and human responsibility. God did not create evil. Human beings were created good, with a good will. Evil comes from disordered/misdirected love.”

That argument is a nice spiritual metaphor. Although I’m unsure if it could be translated to materialistic logic. For example, it’s a bit like inverting the force of heat and saying instead that heat is an absence of cold where coldness is the active force. Even though it’s somewhat circular, it’s true that technically no one is forced to do evil and it’s possible that absolutely everyone freely chooses to do good. That would nevertheless be impossibly unlikely so the “Universe” or whatever must have had the foresight to predict that many people would commit evil actions.



“The butterfly effect is the idea that small things can have non-linear impacts on a complex system. The concept is imagined with a butterfly flapping its wings and causing a typhoon.
Of course, a single act like the butterfly flapping its wings cannot cause a typhoon. Small events can, however, serve as catalysts that act on starting conditions.”

If people have free will, then the medium through which they interact (namely the physical world) would also probably have to be a bit chaotic or uncertain. Natural disasters might be a passive result of the inner chaos and intrinsic randomness of the physical world.
 

Conaeolos

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Evil people might win in the short-term but not the long-term.
I wouldn't be so sure, entropy is the rule not the exception.

I’m simply making the point that evil on the whole can’t truly be said to have won against generally good people seeing as evil itself is internally divided. So we don’t necessarily even need to rely on karma in this life or hell in the afterlife to overcome the problem of evil. Good people don’t attack other good individuals. Therefore mathematical probability dictates that collectively there’ll always be more casualties on the evil side as they have an extra category of evil vs evil victims.
Victim? Who among us is so innocent as to claim the totality of consequences of their choices isn't suffering and tragedy? I agree, good people don’t attack other good individuals, but circumstances themselves can be tragic. I can't see how that would make the universe evil. Circumstances don't have intent, tragedy isn't personal.

So maybe the possibility of evil is an inevitable consequence of the way we can improvise and adapt to the changing environment. It would be like the way thievery is a warped distortion of the otherwise understandable desire to get rewards without wasting time or overexertion and with less effort.
If you spends time with people in great pain. It's hard to miss the greatest sources of pain come from the fear one can not handle more. This resistance being the true source of meaningful anguish. Let go and pain becomes rather meaningless, temporary and momentary. I think it is the same with 'hard choices' where our fears of being unable to handle the consequences are the sources of our greatest folly.

Even though it’s somewhat circular, it’s true that technically no one is forced to do evil and it’s possible that absolutely everyone freely chooses to do good. That would nevertheless be impossibly unlikely so the “Universe” or whatever must have had the foresight to predict that many people would commit evil actions.
When we spend enough time listening, we notice despite being born in a way where our perspectives can only include everything but ourselves, our number one topic remains the self we can not see. Our judgements of evil coming from recognizing in others a reflection of evil within. I don't think the actual universe cares if we commit evil or not. Only we do. These judgements feedback to guide us on the path out of hell, which is the inevitable consequences of these evil choices manifesting in sum.
 
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I don't think the actual universe cares if we commit evil or not. Only we do.
It might be true that the physical universe doesn’t care if we commit evil but of course we’re still part of the universe and we certainly care about ourselves! So that means there’s a small bit of the universe at least that’s in some way caring even if that sounds self-referential. So the more we care about each other the more the universe cares about us.


These judgements feedback to guide us on the path out of hell, which is the inevitable consequences of these evil choices manifesting in sum.
Thankfully most people don’t come across pure evil in their own lives even though we can hear about it in the news. It can be difficult then to fully appreciate the severity of the problem. But we’ve all come across slightly mean people and notice how rude people will be often rude to each other. We certainly don’t need hell to deal with these minor incidents! I suppose the same argument could be made for much more evil crimes even though it’s on too large of a scale for us to fully understand it.
 
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hate eventually leads to love
While pain can sometimes make us stronger or more resilient, evil actions will always be overpowering and much more harmful. But if there’s any consolation at all to be found from encountering evil, perhaps it’s that it can instil in us to be nothing like those bad individuals. So the more despicable we find a certain crime, the more it can motivate us to live virtuous lives by contrast.
 
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Misotheism: “A stance of hatred towards, or rebellion against, a God or the gods.”

No one can hurt a hypothetical God entity directly as its invisible. So if an evil person still believed in the existence of God but wanted to attack that being out of nihilism then they’d be unable to do so. So if someone who isn’t actually atheist but nonetheless hated the “universe creator” then they might resort to attacking fellow individuals instead. So maybe the act of scapegoating might sometimes be caused by versions of misotheism rather than only their hatred of the victim.
 

NWO_Spook

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The Romans and Barbarians were evil?
 

Manc Skipper

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“Creatures can use freedom for good or evil; evil results from improper creaturely use of freedom. The free will defense solution to the problem of evil provides a basis for claiming that creatures, not God, are culpable for the genuine evil that occurs.”

People need to be functionally free or flexible in order to simply move, perceive objects and to set their long-term goals. So maybe the possibility of evil is an inevitable consequence of the way we can improvise and adapt to the changing environment. It would be like the way thievery is a warped distortion of the otherwise understandable desire to get rewards without wasting time or overexertion and with less effort. So in some respects perhaps the “Universe” wouldn’t be able to remove the thoughts of committing evil by some sinister people even if “it” tried to remove their free will by altering their brain. Free will may not only be required for just self-fulfilment or spiritual objectives. It might be needed for mundane short-term acts like walking where we need to feel and balance the different forces on our legs.

“Not only is fluid motion difficult to have with motors and gears, but the number of legs/pivots touching the ground also has a lot to do with how the robot will function.
When it comes to robots that stand up on a certain number of legs, it is much more common for the robot to come tumbling down to the ground than to be able to maintain balance.”



“Evil as the absence of good and human responsibility. God did not create evil. Human beings were created good, with a good will. Evil comes from disordered/misdirected love.”

That argument is a nice spiritual metaphor. Although I’m unsure if it could be translated to materialistic logic. For example, it’s a bit like inverting the force of heat and saying instead that heat is an absence of cold where coldness is the active force. Even though it’s somewhat circular, it’s true that technically no one is forced to do evil and it’s possible that absolutely everyone freely chooses to do good. That would nevertheless be impossibly unlikely so the “Universe” or whatever must have had the foresight to predict that many people would commit evil actions.



“The butterfly effect is the idea that small things can have non-linear impacts on a complex system. The concept is imagined with a butterfly flapping its wings and causing a typhoon.
Of course, a single act like the butterfly flapping its wings cannot cause a typhoon. Small events can, however, serve as catalysts that act on starting conditions.”

If people have free will, then the medium through which they interact (namely the physical world) would also probably have to be a bit chaotic or uncertain. Natural disasters might be a passive result of the inner chaos and intrinsic randomness of the physical world.

The robot dance scene has moved on. Skynet is imminent!

 
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The Romans and Barbarians were evil?
If it was down to pure chance then you’d expect 50% of the world’s population to choose good and the remaining 50% to side with evil. Ideally there’d be 0% evil. It does sound pessimistic that half of the world isn’t evil anyway and most are virtuous. Perhaps that shows that there’s some trace of common good that’s hardwired into us.
 

NWO_Spook

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If it was down to pure chance then you’d expect 50% of the world’s population to choose good and the remaining 50% to side with evil. Ideally there’d be 0% evil. It does sound pessimistic that half of the world isn’t evil anyway and most are virtuous. Perhaps that shows that there’s some trace of common good that’s hardwired into us.

I tend not to view peoples in such a strictly dualistic sense. The Romans and Barbarians were people of their times and collectively no better or worse than any other contemporaneous civilisation.
 
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One more approach might be relating evil to the separation of physical and mental events. Our emotions have a neurological basis even though we’re still not fully sure how it works. So maybe it’s physically easier for the brain to feel pain than happiness. Much of our biological systems are controlled involuntarily. Yet it’s harder to wire a car for automatic steering than manual. Therefore if we were to be fully attuned to our stomach then for instance we’d be overwhelmed or stressed and feel a tummy bug. It’s psychologically easier to be rich but it’s physically harder because it requires more resources and money. It’s collectively easier for everyone to be kind and cooperative though it’s individually simplest to be selfish. Biologically speaking it’s easier for the heart to stop beating than it is to keep beating and stay alive. Dying is physically straightforward but psychologically terrifying. Maybe this discrepancy between the mind and body would make a utopia without evil quite difficult for this universe of ours.
 

jmotivator

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I think there's a small degree of indirect justice in that evil people sometimes attack other evil people. When we discuss the good versus evil debate we often forget there's an evil versus evil fight going on too. For instance in the ancient world the evil barbarians inflicted casualties on the sinister Romans. Even though many get away with their crimes, what goes around often comes around.

As Hobbes noted, the condition of mankind is "a war of everyone against everyone".

Your OP reminds me of algebra class: When bad things (take negative number) happen to bad people (and add it to another negative number) the result is a good thing (equals a positive).

Well, expect when that a competition between two bad people will result in a bad person losing and a bad person winning. That is, at best, a wash. In the real world it id a net negative since the winner often walks away with more power than the two had independently. Hundreds of small time evil people working against one another do less harm than a single person monopolizing the power of one hundred small time criminals can.
 
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That is, at best, a wash. In the real world it id a net negative since the winner often walks away with more power than the two had independently.
I agree with you that some evil people can escape punishment and “win” or grow stronger. Although I don’t think they’ll always be stronger than both combined. For example a conquering army will always suffer some casualties even if they defeat their opponents and take their land.


Hundreds of small time evil people working against one another do less harm than a single person monopolizing the power of one hundred small time criminals can.
True; but powerful evil people will eventually encounter other potent adversaries their own size even if they can take out the small-time competition.
 

j brown's body

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You can't have evil without goodness, or goodness without evil. They define each other.
 
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Our judgements of evil coming from recognizing in others a reflection of evil within.
Evil actions are irrational from most people’s perspective. Hence it can sometimes be difficult to rationally understand the motives of those who commit evil. We can try to recognise the general themes that make individuals want to commit evil like greed, selfishness and indifference towards others. The way aggression is often unexpected can make it harder to objectively assess how much it reflects a person’s character coming from “within” or whether it was a temporary mishap.
 
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