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No holiday for GM workers

Calm2Chaos said:
Ya .. it really is.

I have no doubt there are midigating circumstances also. But the root cause I definetly think comes down to the unions. And now there members are going to have a welfare christmas. Maybe 27 bux is to much to sweep a floor
You probably should turn off Rush and do some actual research into GM's situation. Maybe you could start with the part about GM not being able to sell cars without incentives....
 
scottyz said:
You probably should turn off Rush and do some actual research into GM's situation. Maybe you could start with the part about GM not being able to sell cars without incentives....

This is what happens when you are competing with companies with lower wage workers, no Unions, and higher standards for safety and other things. The UAW has killed the production of cars in this country, just as they have done to Steel, Mining, and many other manufacturing. It is time they stop demanding 50, 60 dollars an hour, better healthcare then anyone I know, and every paid holiday from A to Z.
 
alienken said:
i heard the price of health care per vehicle cost as much as the steel and material used to build each vehicle. The unions cause alot of trouble in our economy.

How can you blame the cost of healthcare - $1500 per car - on the unions?
The problem is not with the unions, it's with our healthcare system.

We need universal healthcare NOW! Premiums are skyrocketing with no controls and no end in site.

Would you prefer the WalMart union busting way? Let American taxpayers pay for Walmart workers healthcare via Medicaire?
 
Deegan said:
This is what happens when you are competing with companies with lower wage workers, no Unions, and higher standards for safety and other things. The UAW has killed the production of cars in this country, just as they have done to Steel, Mining, and many other manufacturing. It is time they stop demanding 50, 60 dollars an hour, better healthcare then anyone I know, and every paid holiday from A to Z.
Actually it has to do with car design ,efficieny and stupidity on GM's part. You say the UAW has killed the production of cars in this country, yet Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW Nissan all build cars here. Toyota almost employs as many Americans as Ford and they offer no incentives on their cars and have made no job cuts. How is it that Nissan and Toyota pay the same wages and benefits as GM to their employees, but aren't cutting jobs?
 
hipsterdufus said:
How can you blame the cost of healthcare - $1500 per car - on the unions?
The problem is not with the unions, it's with our healthcare system.

We need universal healthcare NOW! Premiums are skyrocketing with no controls and no end in site.

Would you prefer the WalMart union busting way? Let American taxpayers pay for Walmart workers healthcare via Medicaire?
Japan has a universal health care system. All the U.S. car company execs are very against a national health care system because "it's not right for America"....aka I don't want to pay taxes for it, but since they know such a health care system will reduce their costs they haved all moved their factories to Canada!!! hmmm..........................................................
 
scottyz said:
Actually it has to do with car design ,efficieny and stupidity on GM's part.

I just ordered a new company car this week, my final list got down to three foriegn an one domestic (as far as national identity of the make). My final pick was a Nissan that will be manufactured in Clanton MS by American workers.

You say the UAW has killed the production of cars in this country, yet Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW Nissan all build cars here.

And Hyundai and KIA (well soon for KIA)

Toyota almost employs as many Americans as Ford and they offer no incentives on their cars and have made no job cuts. How is it that Nissan and Toyota pay the same wages and benefits as GM to their employees, but aren't cutting jobs?

They don't pay the "same" but they pay exceptionally well and people are clamoring to get hired not just at the plants themselves but also the Tier1 and Tier2 suppliers. I sell to the plants and suppliers, will be at Hyundai and a Tier1 (transmission parts) plant today. It's booming down here in the South so when people say that the industry is dying and workers are hurting they are speaking without knowing the facts.
 
hipsterdufus said:
How can you blame the cost of healthcare - $1500 per car - on the unions?
The problem is not with the unions, it's with our healthcare system.

Oh it's the union for demanding it and the company for giving into it (of course the union threatened strikes and such)

We need universal healthcare NOW! Premiums are skyrocketing with no controls and no end in site.

Why should the 98% of the rest of us give up our good private health care for a surely to be no different than any other government program government health care?

Would you prefer the WalMart union busting way?

Since they never had a union how did they bust it?

Let American taxpayers pay for Walmart workers healthcare via Medicaire?

My daughter worked there and they offered health care, a company funded retirement and other benefits so I miss your point.
 
The top Ten privileges of Union scumbags

Privilege #1: Exemption from prosecution for union violence.
The most egregious example of organized labor’s special privileges and immunities is the 1973 United States v. Enmons decision. In it, the United States Supreme Court held that union violence is exempted from the Hobbs Act, which makes it a federal crime to obstruct interstate commerce by robbery or extortion. As a result, thousands of incidents of violent assaults (directed mostly against workers) by union militants have gone unpunished. Meanwhile, many states also restrict the authority of law enforcement to enforce laws during strikes.

Privilege #2: Exemption from anti-monopoly laws.
The Clayton Act of 1914 exempts unions from anti-monopoly laws, enabling union officials to forcibly drive out independent or alternative employee bargaining groups.

Privilege #3: Power to force employees to accept unwanted union representation.
Monopoly bargaining, or “exclusive representation,” which is embedded in most of the country’s labor relations statutes, enables union officials to act as the exclusive bargaining agents of all employees at a unionized workplace, thereby depriving employees of the right to make their own employment contracts. For example, the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) of 1935, the Federal Labor Relations Act (FLRA) of 1978, and the Railway Labor Act (RLA) of 1926 prohibit employees from negotiating their own contracts with their employers or choosing their own workplace representatives.

Privilege #4: Power to collect forced union dues.
Unlike other private organizations, unions can compel individuals to support them financially. In 28 states under the NLRA (those that have not passed Right to Work laws), all states under the RLA, on “exclusive federal enclaves,” and in many states under public sector labor relations acts, employees may be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, even if they reject union affiliation.

Privilege #5: Unlimited, undisclosed electioneering.
The Federal Election Campaign Act exempts unions from its limits on campaign contributions and expenditures, as well as some of its reporting requirements. Union bigwigs can spend unlimited amounts on communications to members and their families in support of, or opposition to, candidates for federal office, and they need not report these expenditures if they successfully claim that union publications are primarily devoted to other subjects. For years, the politically active National Education Association (NEA) teacher union has gotten away with claiming zero political expenditures on its IRS tax forms!

Privilege #6: Ability to strong-arm employers into negotiations.
Unlike all other parties in the economic marketplace, union officials can compel employers to bargain with them. The NLRA, FLRA, and RLA make it illegal for employers to resist a union’s collective bargaining efforts and difficult for them to counter aggressive and deceptive campaigns waged by union organizers.

Privilege #7: Right to trespass on an employer’s private property.
The Norris-LaGuardia Act of 1932 (and state anti-injunction acts) give union activists immunity from injunctions against trespass on an employer’s property.

Privilege #8: Ability of strikers to keep jobs despite refusing to work.
Unlike other employees, unionized employees in the private sector have the right to strike; that is, to refuse to work while keeping their job. In some cases, it is illegal for employers to hire replacement workers, even to avert bankruptcy. Meanwhile, union officials demonize replacement workers as “scabs” to set them up for retaliation.

Privilege #9: Union-only cartels on construction projects.
Under so-called project labor agreements, governments (local, state, or federal) award contracts for construction on major projects such as highways, airports, and stadiums exclusively to unionized firms. Such practices effectively lock-out qualified contractors and employees who refuse to submit to exclusive union bargaining, forced union dues, and wasteful union work rules. So far, just three states have outlawed these discriminatory and costly union-only pacts.

Privilege #10: Government funding of forced unionism.
On top of all of the special powers and immunities granted to organized labor, politicians even pour taxpayer money straight into union coffers. Union groups receive upwards of $160 million annually in direct federal grants. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. In 2001, the federal Department of Labor doled out $148 million for “international labor programs” overwhelmingly controlled by an AFL-CIO front group. Federal bureaucrats spend approximately $2.6 billion per year on “job training programs” that, under the Workforce Investment Act, must be administered by boards filled with union officials. Union bosses also benefit from a plethora of state and local government giveaways.
 
scottyz said:
You probably should turn off Rush and do some actual research into GM's situation. Maybe you could start with the part about GM not being able to sell cars without incentives....

If I listened to Rush then maybe you might have a clue. And I have opted to start with te fact that entry level pay is 56,000 bux. We are not talking rocket science here. I am going to place blame directly on who deserves it.. And that is the unions. I wil not put them 100% at fault but I think they carry the heaviest burden for it....
 
hipsterdufus said:
How can you blame the cost of healthcare - $1500 per car - on the unions?
The problem is not with the unions, it's with our healthcare system.

We need universal healthcare NOW! Premiums are skyrocketing with no controls and no end in site.

Would you prefer the WalMart union busting way? Let American taxpayers pay for Walmart workers healthcare via Medicaire?


Yea universal healthcare... Sorry I pay enough for healthcare why should I increase my taxes and decrease my care.... Blame it on the unions... Sounds like they priced themselves out of a job to me
 
Calm2Chaos said:
If I listened to Rush then maybe you might have a clue. And I have opted to start with te fact that entry level pay is 56,000 bux. We are not talking rocket science here. I am going to place blame directly on who deserves it.. And that is the unions. I wil not put them 100% at fault but I think they carry the heaviest burden for it....
So the fact that GM can't sell its products without heavily discounting them isn't the heaviest burden?? Genius! Did you really think management would blame themselves for GM's problems.
 
scottyz said:
So the fact that GM can't sell its products without heavily discounting them isn't the heaviest burden?? Genius! Did you really think management would blame themselves for GM's problems.

27 dollars an hour to sweep a floor. A union that held them hostage unto the hemmoraged and bled to death.

For that kind of money maybe they should have built a better car. I want 56k for sweeping a floor
 
Trust me, the Union has just not yet dug their vicious claws in these foreign car companies as of yet, they have to take it slow. Still, mark my words, they will end up moving those plants soon enough, as soon as they allow their guard to come down, the Union will strike. GM has been a whipping boy for too long, now nobody wins in this scenario, the old phrase, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" seems to ring so true in this case.:roll:
 
Deegan said:
Trust me, the Union has just not yet dug their vicious claws in these foreign car companies as of yet, they have to take it slow. Still, mark my words, they will end up moving those plants soon enough, as soon as they allow their guard to come down, the Union will strike. GM has been a whipping boy for too long, now nobody wins in this scenario, the old phrase, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" seems to ring so true in this case.:roll:

Just a matter of time before the union pushes this industry complete out of our country
 
Deegan said:
Trust me, the Union has just not yet dug their vicious claws in these foreign car companies as of yet, they have to take it slow. Still, mark my words, they will end up moving those plants soon enough, as soon as they allow their guard to come down, the Union will strike. GM has been a whipping boy for too long, now nobody wins in this scenario, the old phrase, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" seems to ring so true in this case.:roll:
I don't know about that. Here's an interesting editorial about employees trying to block unions out:
In “The Twilight of the Old Unionism,” Rutgers University economics professor Leo Troy emphasizes that the failure of union organizing in the private sector is due to employee opposition. He cites a study done for the AFL-CIO in 1984 by Harris Associates, which found that a strong majority of nonunion workers would vote against union representation. These findings mirror the results of a survey done earlier this year by Zogby International for the Public Service Research Foundation.

Unions still win more than half of all representation elections, despite opposition by a majority of employees, because employees who want to stay union-free aren’t organized. Where employees organize to defend their interests, unions are far less likely to succeed. The recent failure of the United Auto Workers to organize Toyota’s manufacturing facility in Georgetown, Ky., is a good example of this.

Almost as soon as the UAW’s campaign began, Toyota employees formed an opposition group they called the “Truth Finders.” They succeeded in these efforts, despite the union’s overwhelming financial advantage, by providing their co-workers with information about unionism that tapped into their existing concerns about the drawbacks of union representation and the impact it could have on their work environment.
 
Calm2Chaos said:
Just a matter of time before the union pushes this industry complete out of our country
Not to mention pricing cars out of reach for most of us. That would solve 2 problems, our excessive use of foreign oil, and our propensity to become portly from too little exercise. Get your bikes tuned up, or your walking shoes. It is a long way to the bus stop.
 
Calm2Chaos said:
27 dollars an hour to sweep a floor. A union that held them hostage unto the hemmoraged and bled to death.

For that kind of money maybe they should have built a better car. I want 56k for sweeping a floor
Yet Toyota and Nissan pay the same wages and the same benefits, but somehow manage to build better cars... Couldn't be the management, designers or the bean counters faults.

Could it be that for the last 30 years GM has been asleep at the wheel? God no... The same guys who called Fords "jelly bean" Taurus design a joke and a failure when it was shown in '86 must have known what they were talking about. Building the same car and slapping different badges on them and expecting that no one would notice? brilliant!! Putting Cadillac badges on Cavaliers and expecting sales? another genius move! They killed off their muscle car lineup(Camaro, Firebird, TA) a few years before the muscle cars rebirth and now it will be 3 years before the next Camaro is released... Ford and Chrysler didn't miss the boat on that one, why did GM? Even some of GMs own execs call their cars ugly. :lol: These are the types of problems Bob Lutz was hired to fix, but he is only one man fighting an army of GM bean counters and lawyers.
 
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scottyz said:
Yet Toyota and Nissan pay the same wages and the same benefits, but somehow manage to build better cars... Couldn't be the management, designers or the bean counters faults.

Could it be that for the last 30 years GM has been asleep at the wheel? God no... The same guys who called Fords "jelly bean" Taurus design a joke and a failure when it was shown in '86 must have known what they were talking about. Building the same car and slapping different badges on them and expecting that no one would notice? brilliant!! Putting Cadillac badges on Cavaliers and expecting sales? another genius move! They killed off their muscle car lineup(Camaro, Firebird, TA) a few years before the muscle cars rebirth and now it will be 3 years before the next Camaro is released... Ford and Chrysler didn't miss the boat on that one, why did GM? Even some of GMs own execs call their cars ugly. :lol: These are the types of problems Bob Lutz was hired to fix, but he is only one man fighting an army of GM bean counters and lawyers.

I don't know if toyota and Nissan pay the same amount ad get the same benifits. I have read a report concerning the three. Which simply states that Nissan and toyota assemble there vehicles with an average of around 2.2 to 2.5 workers per vehicle. The UAW for GM seems to insists they need almost 3.5 workers per vehicle. This is an additional cost that is also absorbed by the company then the consumer.

Some people, apparently, are miffed by the findings. A case in point that Ron Harbour makes is the United Auto Workers, which went on strike at the GM Oklahoma City plant for 53 days this past spring. One reason for the strike was a demand for additional workers. The new Chevy Malibu and Olds Cutlass are produced in that plant, and while there are, Harbour admits, fewer workers building those vehicles than there were building the previous models, according to the findings, the GM Oklahoma City plant requires 3.41 workers per vehicle, which is 43% more than the benchmark, the 2.38 workers per vehicle required to build the Nissan Altima at the Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN (the Nissan plant is the overall benchmark for the study). In other words, the trade union wants more people to work in the plant. GM, for reasons of competitiveness, thinks there should be fewer people, and the Harbour Report indicates that the corporation is right.

Again a Union demand for more people on the floor. I don't know what the base salary for Toyota and or Nissan is. But whatever it is it sounds like there much more efficient
 
I believe this site has a policy that says, when you use someones work you should give them credit. Since Mr. Deegan failed to do so, I will provide it for you.

http://www.ecouncil.org/rtw.htm

It's a biased source, but I guess you wouldn't find anti-union propaganda here:

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/unions/


Deegan said:
The top Ten privileges of Union scumbags

Wow.. I've been involved with the union, on both sides of the fence, since the early 70's. I've known and know many, many union members and although I'm sure you can find some that fit that discription, as well as you could from non-union members, the vast majority are decent, good, law abiding American citizens. They are deacons in the church, volunteer firefighters, members of the PTO, help repair the elderly's homes, donate their time and money to local charities, etc., etc.
They just want to make a livable wage, provide for their family, send their kids to college, save a little for retirement, just live a quiet, respectable life.

Deegan said:
Privilege #1: Exemption from prosecution for union violence.
The most egregious example of organized labor’s special privileges and immunities is the 1973 United States v. Enmons decision. In it, the United States Supreme Court held that union violence is exempted from the Hobbs Act, which makes it a federal crime to obstruct interstate commerce by robbery or extortion. As a result, thousands of incidents of violent assaults (directed mostly against workers) by union militants have gone unpunished. Meanwhile, many states also restrict the authority of law enforcement to enforce laws during strikes.

Do you really think the SCOTUS would grant anyone or any group an exemption from violence? This decision said that THIS CASE does not fall under the Hobbs Act. It even mentions that the accused are liable to criminal law. I'm not familiar with any state that would restrict the authority of law enforcement to enforce laws during strikes.

Deegan said:
Privilege #2: Exemption from anti-monopoly laws.
The Clayton Act of 1914 exempts unions from anti-monopoly laws, enabling union officials to forcibly drive out independent or alternative employee bargaining groups.

The Clayton Act of 1914 says the labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce. The union membership would have to vote out an exsisting bargaining group to establish a different one.

Deegan said:
Privilege #3: Power to force employees to accept unwanted union representation.
Monopoly bargaining, or “exclusive representation,” which is embedded in most of the country’s labor relations statutes, enables union officials to act as the exclusive bargaining agents of all employees at a unionized workplace, thereby depriving employees of the right to make their own employment contracts. For example, the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) of 1935, the Federal Labor Relations Act (FLRA) of 1978, and the Railway Labor Act (RLA) of 1926 prohibit employees from negotiating their own contracts with their employers or choosing their own workplace representatives.

A union can only represent a group of employees IF the MAJORITY votes for them to do so.
The NLRA, FLRA and RLA spell out the rights of EMPLOYERS and EMPLOYEES.


Deegan said:
Privilege #4: Power to collect forced union dues.
Unlike other private organizations, unions can compel individuals to support them financially. In 28 states under the NLRA (those that have not passed Right to Work laws), all states under the RLA, on “exclusive federal enclaves,” and in many states under public sector labor relations acts, employees may be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, even if they reject union affiliation.

Employees in those states only have to pay the part of union dues that deal directly with the collective bargaining activities of the union (their wages and benefits). I think there are about 23 states that have a 'right to work' law and in those states, the employee does not have to pay union dues, but the union still has to represent them and they receive all negotiated benefits. They are called 'free riders'.

Deegan said:
Privilege #5: Unlimited, undisclosed electioneering.
The Federal Election Campaign Act exempts unions from its limits on campaign contributions and expenditures, as well as some of its reporting requirements. Union bigwigs can spend unlimited amounts on communications to members and their families in support of, or opposition to, candidates for federal office, and they need not report these expenditures if they successfully claim that union publications are primarily devoted to other subjects. For years, the politically active National Education Association (NEA) teacher union has gotten away with claiming zero political expenditures on its IRS tax forms!

In my state, unions are treated like corporations in the way they can make campaign donations (ask Tom DeLay).

Deegan said:
Privilege #6: Ability to strong-arm employers into negotiations.
Unlike all other parties in the economic marketplace, union officials can compel employers to bargain with them. The NLRA, FLRA, and RLA make it illegal for employers to resist a union’s collective bargaining efforts and difficult for them to counter aggressive and deceptive campaigns waged by union organizers.

Strong-arm?? This gives employees the right to collective bargaining, by a majority vote.

Difficult for them to counter aggressive and deceptive campaigns waged by union organizers?
Ask Wal-mart how difficult it is...LOL


Deegan said:
Privilege #7: Right to trespass on an employer’s private property.
The Norris-LaGuardia Act of 1932 (and state anti-injunction acts) give union activists immunity from injunctions against trespass on an employer’s property.

The Norris-LaGuardia Act limits the power of federal courts in labor disputes (i.e. injunctions).This act gave labor unions the right to organize, strike, and use other forms of leverage against management without the interference of the federal court.
It also made illegal the common practice of requiring new employees to sign pledges not to join a union as a pre-condition of employment. So-called “yellow dog” contracts had been a common tool used by management to hinder the growth of labor unions.


Deegan said:
Privilege #8: Ability of strikers to keep jobs despite refusing to work.
Unlike other employees, unionized employees in the private sector have the right to strike; that is, to refuse to work while keeping their job. In some cases, it is illegal for employers to hire replacement workers, even to avert bankruptcy. Meanwhile, union officials demonize replacement workers as “scabs” to set them up for retaliation.

The union has a right to strike...duh.
'In some cases, it is illegal for employers to hire replacement workers'
In some cases it is not.

Deegan said:
Privilege #9: Union-only cartels on construction projects.
Under so-called project labor agreements, governments (local, state, or federal) award contracts for construction on major projects such as highways, airports, and stadiums exclusively to unionized firms. Such practices effectively lock-out qualified contractors and employees who refuse to submit to exclusive union bargaining, forced union dues, and wasteful union work rules. So far, just three states have outlawed these discriminatory and costly union-only pacts.

I haven't had any dealings with this situation, so I can't comment.
I will say this though, in my experience, the company I worked for would hire non-union contractors for routine, everyday, mundane work, but for specialized, technical maintenance work, union contractors everytime. They were better trained, they knew what to do without having to hold their hand, didn't have the re-works. For those types of jobs they were more cost efficient in the long run.

Deegan said:
Privilege #10: Government funding of forced unionism.
On top of all of the special powers and immunities granted to organized labor, politicians even pour taxpayer money straight into union coffers. Union groups receive upwards of $160 million annually in direct federal grants. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. In 2001, the federal Department of Labor doled out $148 million for “international labor programs” overwhelmingly controlled by an AFL-CIO front group. Federal bureaucrats spend approximately $2.6 billion per year on “job training programs” that, under the Workforce Investment Act, must be administered by boards filled with union officials. Union bosses also benefit from a plethora of state and local government giveaways.

Each year, U.S. taxpayers subsidize U.S. businesses to the tune of almost $125 billion

http://www.citizen.org/congress/welfare/index.cfm
 
Lets face it... The Unions hold a large part of the responsibility for this. Not all of it, but IMO the hold the lions share
 
I've been on both sides, a union member and management. What the union members don't know as sad. They have no idea how duped they are about the union looking out for them.
 
Wow.. I've been involved with the union, on both sides of the fence, since the early 70's. I've known and know many, many union members and although I'm sure you can find some that fit that discription, as well as you could from non-union members, the vast majority are decent, good, law abiding American citizens. They are deacons in the church, volunteer firefighters, members of the PTO, help repair the elderly's homes, donate their time and money to local charities, etc., etc.
They just want to make a livable wage, provide for their family, send their kids to college, save a little for retirement, just live a quiet, respectable life.

I have been on both sides too and deal with many unionized companies and non-union companies. What you say is true and it amazes me that the decent people in the unions allow what goes on to go on. We are having the auto industry boom in the South. And it is non-union filled with former union employees who want nothing to do with them again.
 
ddoyle00 said:
"DETROIT - General Motors Corp., pounded by declining sales and rising health care costs, said Monday it will cut more than a quarter of its North American manufacturing jobs and close 12 facilities by 2008. The United Auto Workers called the plan "devastating" and warned it will make negotiations more difficult, but some Wall Street analysts said GM's actions may not go far enough."

"To get production in line with demand, GM will cut 30,000 jobs and will close nine assembly, stamping and powertrain plants and three parts facilities. The job cuts represent 27 percent of GM's hourly jobs and about 17 percent of its overall North American work force of 173,000."-Yahoo News, 21/Nov/05


Maybe they shouldnt make an entry-level truck $28,000. Seriously though, I remember reading that an average of $1200 of a vehicle's price goes to cover the healthcare of a union worker. The Union reps can call this action anything they like, but they might want to consider the word "unemployed"
I think its time for the unions to dissolve or at least consider giving up some ground. When they won for their workers to have healthcare, all they really won was the right for the companies to pass the loss on to us. Now look, 25% of its work force expected to disappear and GM's stock has gone up .13 cents.


Why do I keep reading and/or hearing people talking about cutting health care to reduce the bottom line of businesses? Are you willing to give up your health insurance...or just other peoples health insurance?
 
Stu Ghatze said:
Who cares, ...most union auto workers are WAY overpayed, & underworked anyway.

The employees ought to consider themselves "lucky" that GM was so willing to overpay, & over compensate them for so long, ..& put the risk of GM's own economic health below the wants of the socialistic auto workers union that thinks it should have the right to tell the EMPLOYERS what to do!

The laid off emloyees don't like it, ..too bad. They can always invest their capital, risk their wealth & time, & start THEIR own business venture, & be subject to paying high wages, & union demands! ;)


You ever work a production line or are you just assuming auto workers have it great?
 
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