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No fly zone

Indeed. None of it is simple shit. Even providing fighter planes from Poland assumes the Ukrainians have trained pilots to use them, and that the Russians will leave even a single uncontested airports, or runways, to arm, fuel and fly them from - which is, quite frankly, damned unlikely.

Sanctions, of course, but point-and-shoot anti-armor, and point-and-shoot shoulder launched anti-aircraft, along with sniper rifles and munitions, body armor, food and medical supplies, are the best we can offer the Ukrainian resistance. And given their education, their resolve, and their sense of national identity, that should be more than enough to drive Russia out. It certainly was in Afghanistan, and that was a deeply divided country during their occupation.
The Ukraine pilots are trained on the air assets that the former eastern bloc countries have. So they can use them. I suspect Ukraine still has air facilities available to it. The Russian air forces have not necessarily covered themselves in glory so far and Ukraine is a big country. After all, they are taking off and landing the Turkish drones that they have somewhere.
 
Other despots are taking note and right now the lesson is if you have nukes you can literally get away with murder.
?? You say that as if it hasn't been known for generations. That's the reason authoritarian regimes want 'nukes. They make you a player on the world stage - and literally someone who can get away with murder.
 
The simple truth of it is that we all always be on the defense with Putin and his nukes. We will have to defend every foot of NATO territory and let him have it with full measures of conventional warfare if he crosses a border. If he can convince his generals to launch a first nuclear strike under those circumstances, so be it. We all go up in smoke or ash..... Death and cremation in one step.
 
The Ukraine pilots are trained on the air assets that the former eastern bloc countries have.
Of course.
So they can use them.
Non sequitur. One does not follow from the other.
I suspect Ukraine still has air facilities available to it. The Russian air forces have not necessarily covered themselves in glory so far and Ukraine is a big country.
So far. Tru dat.
After all, they are taking off and landing the Turkish drones that they have somewhere.
Mmm - that's a big difference. Huge in fact. Turkey makes VTOL combat drones requiring almost no takeoff and landing roll. A tennis court will do. Fighter jets require an improved runway - say roughly a 600m straight paved road minimum. Hangers to hide, fuel depots, etc. Probably plenty still there now, and long enough, but it's hard to say how long they will last if Russia begins to face anything they think is competition in the air.
 
Certainly, but if he can provide actual footage of a NATO jet firing on a Russian one, then he can prove direct NATO involvement.
European countries better unite to stop Putin now or he’ll pick them off one at a time.
 
?? You say that as if it hasn't been known for generations. That's the reason authoritarian regimes want 'nukes. They make you a player on the world stage - and literally someone who can get away with murder.
If Putin gets away with this because he has nukes it will validate that thinking and encourage the spread of nukes
 
If Putin gets away with this because he has nukes it will validate that thinking and encourage the spread of nukes
That thinking has already been long validated by more than 3 generations of tensions between nuclear powers that have never faced each other across a conventional battlefield. Korea, Iran and others don't need any encouragement to know exactly what it would take to make them effectively "invasion proof". The ability to obliterate a single American city in response would be more than enough.
 
Putin wants NATO to get involved so he has cover in his own nation. Right now, he can't really justify putting the citizens of Russia through financial hardship with the invasion of Ukraine. But if NATO establishes a no fly zone and a NATO jet fires at a Russian one, he can convince his people NATO is out to get Russia.
 
Of course.

Non sequitur. One does not follow from the other.
They are MIG-29's. If they can't fly MIG-29's they can't fly anything. They ARE trained on MIG-29's. In fact the MIG29 and SU27's are the base fighter planes that the Ukraine Air Force flies now.
So far. Tru dat.

Mmm - that's a big difference. Huge in fact. Turkey makes VTOL combat drones requiring almost no takeoff and landing roll. A tennis court will do. Fighter jets require an improved runway - say roughly a 600m straight paved road minimum. Hangers to hide, fuel depots, etc. Probably plenty still there now, and long enough, but it's hard to say how long they will last if Russia begins to face anything they think is competition in the air.
Take off distance is 250 meters for the 29 with afterburners, 700 meters without with a 750 meter landing distance. Not nothing but not excruciatingly long either. About average for you modern day runway. There are apparently something like 20 military airfields in Ukraine and some number of commercial strips. The Ukrainians know that its the MIG-29 that they are likely going to be offered and they appear to believe they can do something with them.

I would certainly do everything I could to send them to the Ukrainians.
 
Putin wants NATO to get involved so he has cover in his own nation. Right now, he can't really justify putting the citizens of Russia through financial hardship with the invasion of Ukraine. But if NATO establishes a no fly zone and a NATO jet fires at a Russian one, he can convince his people NATO is out to get Russia.
Putin can "justify" anything. His invasion of Ukraine is evidence of that.
 
Putin can "justify" anything. His invasion of Ukraine is evidence of that.
Not really. Russians are protesting. NATO gets involved and that will likely stop.
 
If Putin gets away with this because he has nukes it will validate that thinking and encourage the spread of nukes
"encourage the spread of nukes"?
Do you think they are spread through popularity? I mean, if they have a good advertising agency and it makes people want them, then more people just go out and get them?
Please, Lord, help me to deal with this naïveté.
 
Sitting back and being scared, while innocent people are dying will have long term consequences, make no mistake about it.
Our greater duty is to ensure we don't start WWIII unless there is no other option. The Ukrainian conflict is garnering the feels because it is benefitting from broad global media coverage. It has been dubbed the Tik Tok war because of the live updates taking place on that and other social media apps. Elsewhere there is plenty of genocide going on in the world for far longer than the war in Ukraine and for which more people have died and are dying and for which we all have a moral responsibility to lend assistance and for which we are doing as much as we can yet it amounts to little. Remember the Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and other Turkic Muslims in China; Rohingya in Myanmar; Nuer and other ethic groups in South Sudan; Yazidis in Iraq and Syria; Darfuris in Sudan; more in Ethiopia and the Central African Republic.

Problems with solutions that can only be a choice between bad and worse need to take into account many perspectives. If we put boots on the ground in Ukraine or invoke a no fly zone, shouldn't we also engage in war with all those countries committing genocide? Palestine and Israel have been killing each other for decades, which side should we choose there? What good would come from a war between China and Russia and the US and our allies?

These are heavy decisions being weighed among leaders of the free world who know more about the issues and potential ramifications than most ordinary citizens. I don't envy them the task ahead. They probably wish they could lead with their hearts and they understand why they cannot and they also know they will bear the consequences for their decisions. They are going to be criticized and demonized whatever the outcomes.

We won't rediscover our humanity among the rubble of nuclear waste.

Elie Weisel said "There are times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."

The free world is protesting; countries are skirting international law and agreements to aid Ukraine; the Swiss have revoked their neutrality, the first time since 1939, and are supplying weapons to Ukraine. These are not meaningless actions nor can they be portrayed as standing by and letting innocent people die.
 
"encourage the spread of nukes"?
Do you think they are spread through popularity? I mean, if they have a good advertising agency and it makes people want them, then more people just go out and get them?
Please, Lord, help me to deal with this naïveté.
Over your head I guess. This is geopolitical think not Christmas shopping.
 
Our greater duty is to ensure we don't start WWIII unless there is no other option. The Ukrainian conflict is garnering the feels because it is benefitting from broad global media coverage. It has been dubbed the Tik Tok war because of the live updates taking place on that and other social media apps. Elsewhere there is plenty of genocide going on in the world for far longer than the war in Ukraine and for which more people have died and are dying and for which we all have a moral responsibility to lend assistance and for which we are doing as much as we can yet it amounts to little. Remember the Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and other Turkic Muslims in China; Rohingya in Myanmar; Nuer and other ethic groups in South Sudan; Yazidis in Iraq and Syria; Darfuris in Sudan; more in Ethiopia and the Central African Republic.

Problems with solutions that can only be a choice between bad and worse need to take into account many perspectives. If we put boots on the ground in Ukraine or invoke a no fly zone, shouldn't we also engage in war with all those countries committing genocide? Palestine and Israel have been killing each other for decades, which side should we choose there? What good would come from a war between China and Russia and the US and our allies?

These are heavy decisions being weighed among leaders of the free world who know more about the issues and potential ramifications than most ordinary citizens. I don't envy them the task ahead. They probably wish they could lead with their hearts and they understand why they cannot and they also know they will bear the consequences for their decisions. They are going to be criticized and demonized whatever the outcomes.

We won't rediscover our humanity among the rubble of nuclear waste.

Elie Weisel said "There are times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."

The free world is protesting; countries are skirting international law and agreements to aid Ukraine; the Swiss have revoked their neutrality, the first time since 1939, and are supplying weapons to Ukraine. These are not meaningless actions nor can they be portrayed as standing by and letting innocent people die.
The world protested when Hitler invaded Poland. Sometimes protest is not enough.
 
The world protested when Hitler invaded Poland. Sometimes protest is not enough.
Well then, do you want to go to war with all the countries engaging in wholesale genocide as well as Russia?
 
Well then, do you want to go to war with all the countries engaging in wholesale genocide as well as Russia?
I want to learn from history not repeat it.
 
I want to learn from history not repeat it.
Good luck with that. Humanity's habit is to use history as examples repeat using better technology. We are shining examples of the definition of insanity -- doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
 
Our greater duty is to ensure we don't start WWIII unless there is no other option. The Ukrainian conflict is garnering the feels because it is benefitting from broad global media coverage. It has been dubbed the Tik Tok war because of the live updates taking place on that and other social media apps. Elsewhere there is plenty of genocide going on in the world for far longer than the war in Ukraine and for which more people have died and are dying and for which we all have a moral responsibility to lend assistance and for which we are doing as much as we can yet it amounts to little. Remember the Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and other Turkic Muslims in China; Rohingya in Myanmar; Nuer and other ethic groups in South Sudan; Yazidis in Iraq and Syria; Darfuris in Sudan; more in Ethiopia and the Central African Republic.

Problems with solutions that can only be a choice between bad and worse need to take into account many perspectives. If we put boots on the ground in Ukraine or invoke a no fly zone, shouldn't we also engage in war with all those countries committing genocide? Palestine and Israel have been killing each other for decades, which side should we choose there? What good would come from a war between China and Russia and the US and our allies?

These are heavy decisions being weighed among leaders of the free world who know more about the issues and potential ramifications than most ordinary citizens. I don't envy them the task ahead. They probably wish they could lead with their hearts and they understand why they cannot and they also know they will bear the consequences for their decisions. They are going to be criticized and demonized whatever the outcomes.

We won't rediscover our humanity among the rubble of nuclear waste.

Elie Weisel said "There are times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."

The free world is protesting; countries are skirting international law and agreements to aid Ukraine; the Swiss have revoked their neutrality, the first time since 1939, and are supplying weapons to Ukraine. These are not meaningless actions nor can they be portrayed as standing by and letting innocent people die.

That's a good post and valid points. I am sure of it, no doubt....but not much was done while Putin was building his military presence on the border to Ukraine and I think this will get the most attention in history. Hopefully the Ukrainian people will get enough assistance and help to thwart back the Russians, stiffle their efforts and send them packing to Russia.
 
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