No fly zone

[Chainsawmassacre]

At this point I think a no fly zone enforced by all of free Europe is the only way to stop Putin. The domino theory of the Vietnam era may or may not have been flawed but right now in Europe it's valid. If Putin isn't stood up to with Ukraine he will be stronger when he eventually goes after yet another country.

 

[phoenix2020]

Have you reached out to your state representative to share your opinion that our government should demand that Europe risk direct war to enforce a no fly zone?

 

[Airyaman]

This would play right into Putin's hands.

 

[Queen Margo]

Have you reached out to your state representative to share your opinion that our government should demand that Europe risk direct war to enforce a no fly zone?

Who said that our government should demand this? This should be up to Europe.

 

[Shrink726]

At this point I think a no fly zone enforced by all of free Europe is the only way to stop Putin. The domino theory of the Vietnam era may or may not have been flawed but right now in Europe it's valid. If Putin isn't stood up to with Ukraine he will be stronger when he eventually goes after yet another country.

Muldova is next. It's not a NATO country and there's a few Russians there so Putin can play the "I need to invade it to insure the safety of the Russian speakers" bullshit pretext that he always uses.

Like I said elsewhere, this is a Chamberlain or Churchill moment. Take your pick.

 

[BlueTex]

At this point I think a no fly zone enforced by all of free Europe is the only way to stop Putin. The domino theory of the Vietnam era may or may not have been flawed but right now in Europe it's valid. If Putin isn't stood up to with Ukraine he will be stronger when he eventually goes after yet another country.

Russia lost two more aircraft yesterday to stinger missiles... If Russia continues to lose 2 aircraft a day, at what point does this affect Russia ENTIRE air force capability?

 

[MamboDervish]

Russia lost two more aircraft yesterday to stinger missiles... If Russia continues to lose 2 aircraft a day, at what point does this affect Russia ENTIRE air force capability?

If they stop producing anymore aircraft, about 5 years. Why do you ask?

 

[NewfieMom]

Some people are too young to have lived through The Cold War. They do not understand that nuclear war is preventable only through knowing that total destruction is the only possible outcome of war with another nuclear power. These people have to learn, not give advice.

 

[BlueTex]

If they stop producing anymore aircraft, about 5 years. Why do you ask?

Nonsense... They can not afford to ignore all the other missions and maintain their aircraft under these sanctions...

 

[MamboDervish]

Nonsense... They can not afford to ignore all the other missions and maintain their aircraft under these sanctions...

Hey - you asked how long it would last losing 2 aircraft a day. I answered.

There are a thousand things that are affected by the sanctions, but maintaining their military capability is not likely to be among them.

What they can "afford" is a has much more to do with what they are willing to spend, rather than what they can spend. They were driven out of Afghanistan with very little impact on their total military capability. It simply became too costly for their potential return on investment. We would hope for the same in Ukraine. In other words, what does Ukraine have to do to make it not worth it? That's the real question, and the one that will only be answered when they finally pull out.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Some people are too young to have lived through The Cold War. They do not understand that nuclear war is preventable only through knowing that total destruction is the only possible outcome of war with another nuclear power. These people have to learn, not give advice.

So all of Europe should just let Putin take them over rather than risk nuclear war?

 

[redbeer]

At this point I think a no fly zone enforced by all of free Europe is the only way to stop Putin. The domino theory of the Vietnam era may or may not have been flawed but right now in Europe it's valid. If Putin isn't stood up to with Ukraine he will be stronger when he eventually goes after yet another country.

Putin is using the threat of nuclear war to his advantage, while the world just let's him roll on through. Sometimes people leave you no choice.....this might be one of them. Albeit, I don't want to get entangled into a war, can we just sit back and watch the Ukrainian people suffer and die?....just seems wrong, imo.

 

[pocket aces]

Putin is using the threat of nuclear war to his advantage, while the world just let's him roll on through. Sometimes people leave you no choice.....this might be one of them. Albeit, I don't want to get entangled into a war, can we just sit back and watch the Ukrainian people suffer and die?....just seems wrong, imo.

Do you want to be the person to potentially cause the launch of a nuke for making that decision? I personally don't think he will launch one even if we our someone else directly helps, but obviously many world leaders are struggling with that question right now.

 

[redbeer]

Do you want to be the person to potentially cause the launch of a nuke for making that decision? I personally don't think he will launch one even if we our someone else directly helps, but obviously many world leaders are struggling with that question right now.

Protecting the Ukrainian people would not cause the launch of a nuclear bomb......that would come from the lunatic who launched it....duh. Sitting back and being scared, while innocent people are dying will have long term consequences, make no mistake about it.

 

[jnug]

No fly zone is a ridiculous overreach. First thing we would have to do to enforce an air cap is knock out Russian mobile ground to air missile sites that also happen to be on the Belarus and Russian sides of the border. So right off the bat, first thing we would do has us taking out Russian assets on Russian soil. Smooth move....real smooth.

Get Russians and Americans shooting at each other and a nuclear exchange is inevitable IMO not immediately but eventually and entirely unnecessary. Even Zelensky knows it. He is pushing the air cap narrative to spur the western allies to get him airplanes and mobile ground to air missiles. Those are complicated systems. We need the former eastern bloc countries that have eastern bloc assets to send them to Ukraine because that is what Ukraine military assets are trained to use. The simple point and pull the trigger stuff we have sent so far can be used by anybody. Not so for war planes and mobile ground to air missile systems.

That means we have to put an air cap over countries like Poland that will have contributed their aircraft to the effort. We have to backfill their air forces with NATO equipment and we have to train them to use NATO equipment. None of this is simple shit.

 

[Credence]

At this point I think a no fly zone enforced by all of free Europe is the only way to stop Putin. The domino theory of the Vietnam era may or may not have been flawed but right now in Europe it's valid. If Putin isn't stood up to with Ukraine he will be stronger when he eventually goes after yet another country.

I strongly disagree. While I can understand Zelensky's plea for a no fly zone this is exactly what Putin wants to hit that button and the first city struck would be NY. We are responsible for our citizens first and we are assisting Ukraine as much as we can as is the rest of Europe

 

[Airyaman]

Putin wants NATO countries to get directly involved. That way he can justify escalation with his people because he can tell them the evil West wants to invade Russia.

 

[CaughtInThe]

This would play right into Putin's hands.

i'm pretty sure the OP is an internet warrior with no real world management responsibility and certainly doesn't post like a decision maker.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

I strongly disagree. While I can understand Zelensky's plea for a no fly zone this is exactly what Putin wants to hit that button and the first city struck would be NY. We are responsible for our citizens first and we are assisting Ukraine as much as we can as is the rest of Europe

If Putin wants to hit the button he will do so. This is not the time to show weakness or any more weakness I should say.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

No fly zone is a ridiculous overreach. First thing we would have to do to enforce an air cap is knock out Russian mobile ground to air missile sites that also happen to be on the Belarus and Russian sides of the border. So right off the bat, first thing we would do has us taking out Russian assets on Russian soil. Smooth move....real smooth.

Get Russians and Americans shooting at each other and a nuclear exchange is inevitable IMO not immediately but eventually and entirely unnecessary. Even Zelensky knows it. He is pushing the air cap narrative to spur the western allies to get him airplanes and mobile ground to air missiles. Those are complicated systems. We need the former eastern bloc countries that have eastern bloc assets to send them to Ukraine because that is what Ukraine military assets are trained to use. The simple point and pull the trigger stuff we have sent so far can be used by anybody. Not so for war planes and mobile ground to air missile systems.

That means we have to put an air cap over countries like Poland that will have contributed their aircraft to the effort. We have to backfill their air forces with NATO equipment and we have to train them to use NATO equipment. None of this is simple shit.

I’m not advocating American involvement and in fact am against that. I do however think Europe should rally to the defense of its neighbor and if they don’t now they will have to eventually. Putin can’t even handle Ukraine militarily and if entire free Europe stood up to Putin he’d quickly be defeated.
In essence what we have now is a school yard bully beating up a kid behind the backstop as other kids watch and say what a bully instead of intervening together and taking the bully down.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Putin wants NATO countries to get directly involved. That way he can justify escalation with his people because he can tell them the evil West wants to invade Russia.

Putin tells his people anything he wants and telling them anything different will get you 52 years in prison.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Do you want to be the person to potentially cause the launch of a nuke for making that decision? I personally don't think he will launch one even if we our someone else directly helps, but obviously many world leaders are struggling with that question right now.

Other despots are taking note and right now the lesson is if you have nukes you can literally get away with murder.

 

[Airyaman]

Putin tells his people anything he wants and telling them anything different will get you 52 years in prison.

Certainly, but if he can provide actual footage of a NATO jet firing on a Russian one, then he can prove direct NATO involvement.

 

[MamboDervish]

No fly zone is a ridiculous overreach. First thing we would have to do to enforce an air cap is knock out Russian mobile ground to air missile sites that also happen to be on the Belarus and Russian sides of the border. So right off the bat, first thing we would do has us taking out Russian assets on Russian soil. Smooth move....real smooth.

Get Russians and Americans shooting at each other and a nuclear exchange is inevitable IMO not immediately but eventually and entirely unnecessary. Even Zelensky knows it. He is pushing the air cap narrative to spur the western allies to get him airplanes and mobile ground to air missiles. Those are complicated systems. We need the former eastern bloc countries that have eastern bloc assets to send them to Ukraine because that is what Ukraine military assets are trained to use. The simple point and pull the trigger stuff we have sent so far can be used by anybody. Not so for war planes and mobile ground to air missile systems.

That means we have to put an air cap over countries like Poland that will have contributed their aircraft to the effort. We have to backfill their air forces with NATO equipment and we have to train them to use NATO equipment. None of this is simple shit.

Indeed. None of it is simple shit. Even providing fighter planes from Poland assumes the Ukrainians have trained pilots to use them, and that the Russians will leave even a single uncontested airports, or runways, to arm, fuel and fly them from - which is, quite frankly, damned unlikely.

Sanctions, of course, but point-and-shoot anti-armor, and point-and-shoot shoulder launched anti-aircraft, along with sniper rifles and munitions, body armor, food and medical supplies, are the best we can offer the Ukrainian resistance. And given their education, their resolve, and their sense of national identity, that should be more than enough to drive Russia out. It certainly was in Afghanistan, and that was a deeply divided country during their occupation.

 

[jnug]

I’m not advocating American involvement and in fact am against that. I do however think Europe should rally to the defense of its neighbor and if they don’t now they will have to eventually. Putin can’t even handle Ukraine militarily and if entire free Europe stood up to Putin he’d quickly be defeated.
In essence what we have now is a school yard bully beating up a kid behind the backstop as other kids watch and say what a bully instead of intervening together and taking the bully down.

and of course THAT kind of facilitation of a NO FLY ZONE would also ultimately result in a nuclear exchange between the United States, the three NATO partners that are also nuclear powers and Russia. What version of can't do it do you not understand? What part of unnecessary to do it do you not understand.