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No-fly zone in Ukraine worth the risks; Putin may attack Western nations anyway, GOP rep says

Torus34

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See you guys on the front lines.

Hi, ChickenTendies!

There are some politicians who are willing to send others to die. Nothing new there.

It's worth noting, though, that the most recent conquest of Chechnya took almost 10 years. The Russian war on Ukraine is just some 16 days old. We've a way to go.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 

Mr Person

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No-fly zone "worth the risks"?

Christ, just call it what it is. Declaring a no-fly zone is a declaration of war. You have to actually shoot down Russian planes for there to be a no-fly zone. And you can call it a no-fly zone to try to signal that you have no intentions of invading Russia itself, but then Putin has absolutely no good reason to see it that way.


Either we fight a hot war with Russia, or we do not.
 

code1211

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See you guys on the front lines.

Our elected reps are lying thieves.

Our president is a pants wetting, feckless coward who is among the most prolific lying thieves.

I agree we are screwed, but the lists of current events have little to do with the ongoing screwing.
 

Credence

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See you guys on the front lines.
Several congressional members sent Biden a letter in which they asked he establish a no fly zone. He addressed it in his presser yesterday when he told us that it would start WWIII. I am not saying he won't change his mind; but he was pretty adamant. Right now I am so glad he is keeping a cool head and not governing by emotion
 

EMNofSeattle

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No-fly zone "worth the risks"?

Christ, just call it what it is. Declaring a no-fly zone is a declaration of war. You have to actually shoot down Russian planes for there to be a no-fly zone. And you can call it a no-fly zone to try to signal that you have no intentions of invading Russia itself, but then Putin has absolutely no good reason to see it that way.


Either we fight a hot war with Russia, or we do not.
What I would find interesting is this, Russia’s air defense systems are much better than their aircraft, so we declare a no-fly zone, Russia’s planes scurry back to bases, then the S-400s go up and start knocking down NATO combatant planes
 

TheParser

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It's worth noting, though, that the most recent conquest of Chechnya took almost 10 years. The Russian war on Ukraine is just some 16 days old. We've a way to go.
Really?

I didn't know it took 10 years!

Dang!

If it took that long to subdue a backward place like Chechnya, it should by right take 50 years to subdue a developed place like Ukraine.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Really?

I didn't know it took 10 years!

Dang!

If it took that long to subdue a backward place like Chechnya, it should by right take 50 years to subdue a developed place like Ukraine.
Well there’s some caveats to that.

The first is, in the first Chechen War Russia’s military was in far worse shape than now. The army was entirely conscripts, and the officers were largely corrupt, the Russians couldn’t consistently pay their troops and so officers would take bribes or steal from people and the best ones left,

Chechnya on the other hand was full of Afghanistan combat veterans, in addition the Chechens all spoke unaccented Russian whereas virtually none of the Russians spoke chechen, so the Chechens would get on the radio and not only listen in to Russian radio chatter, but would actually feed misinformation and fake orders to Russian units into ambush zones. Then they would communicate to their own forces in Chechen.

In addition the leadership of Russia didn’t plan the operation, this is not a joke, but the Russian defense minister was a severe alcoholic, like shaking without a drink and seeing purple elephants alcoholic like Yeltsin was, and he ordered the initial assault into Grozny while blackout drunk by phone on New Year’s Eve before the commanders on the ground had formulated a plan.

So there’s that.

Now the ten years, they didn’t fight in Chechnya for ten years, there was a period of like four or five years where the Russians made no attempt to fight in Chechnya between the first and second Chechen wars,
 

EMNofSeattle

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Really?

I didn't know it took 10 years!

Dang!

If it took that long to subdue a backward place like Chechnya, it should by right take 50 years to subdue a developed place like Ukraine.
I think your last line kind of reveals something though, it’s actually that a backward place like Chechnya, or Afghanistan, or Ireland during the days of the troubles, that can carry on a partisan war for ten years. A more developed country has less backbone for such a conflict. Many people in modern societies think more “rationally” in the sense of “oh well the Russians are here now and maybe I can cut a deal with the winning horse” whereas a backward Islamic republic is all “glory to Allah and I go to paradise if I die so what the hell?”
 

TheParser

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Well there’s some caveats to that.

The first is, in the first Chechen War Russia’s military was in far worse shape than now. The army was entirely conscripts, and the officers were largely corrupt, the Russians couldn’t consistently pay their troops and so officers would take bribes or steal from people and the best ones left,

Chechnya on the other hand was full of Afghanistan combat veterans, in addition the Chechens all spoke unaccented Russian whereas virtually none of the Russians spoke chechen, so the Chechens would get on the radio and not only listen in to Russian radio chatter, but would actually feed misinformation and fake orders to Russian units into ambush zones. Then they would communicate to their own forces in Chechen.

In addition the leadership of Russia didn’t plan the operation, this is not a joke, but the Russian defense minister was a severe alcoholic, like shaking without a drink and seeing purple elephants alcoholic like Yeltsin was, and he ordered the initial assault into Grozny while blackout drunk by phone on New Year’s Eve before the commanders on the ground had formulated a plan.

So there’s that.

Now the ten years, they didn’t fight in Chechnya for ten years, there was a period of like four or five years where the Russians made no attempt to fight in Chechnya between the first and second Chechen wars,
Very interesting & informative.

Russia is really such a screwup of a nation.

That is a surprise, for when young Russians come here, they do very well and contribute to American society in a constructive manner.
 

Loulit01

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Our elected reps are lying thieves.

Our president is a pants wetting, feckless coward who is among the most prolific lying thieves.

I agree we are screwed, but the lists of current events have little to do with the ongoing screwing.
Haven't you heard? Trump's not president anymore. Hallelujah!
 

Credence

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There are two letters highlighted in this article; one calling for a no fly zone and the other resisting a no fly zone. (I agree with the no fly zone)

Transpartisan group hits back at calls for no-fly zone over Ukraine

Imposing it would be akin to declaring a war with Russia, they write, and it “strains credulity” to think this would make America, or the world safer.

Plenty of voices in official Washington continue to push for a no-fly zone over Ukraine — the most recent public call came earlier this week when over two dozen former U.S. officials and ambassadors penned an open letter pressing for limited airspace restrictions to open up “humanitarian corridors” and pathways for “additional military means for Ukrainian self-defense.” So far, the Biden administration has resisted these calls. A new letter, signed by nearly 80 scholars and journalists from across the political and ideological spectrum, explains why he needs to keep resisting.

“A no-fly zone would commit the U.S. and NATO forces to shoot down any Russian aircraft that enter. It would be naive to think that merely declaring a no-fly zone would convince the Russian military to comply voluntarily,” reads the letter. “In short, a no-fly zone would mean going to war with Russia.”

Read the full letter, led by Stephen Wertheim of Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Will Ruger of the American Institute for Economic Research, here.

 

Cardinal

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Credence

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Hi, ChickenTendies!

There are some politicians who are willing to send others to die. Nothing new there.

It's worth noting, though, that the most recent conquest of Chechnya took almost 10 years. The Russian war on Ukraine is just some 16 days old. We've a way to go.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.

Russia's wars in Chechnya offer a grim warning of what could be in Ukraine​


Read more or listen to brief summary:
 

EMNofSeattle

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Very interesting & informative.

Russia is really such a screwup of a nation.
The collapse of the USSR and the 10 years after was a time of great problems and malaise for Russia. There’s essays written about this, but it’s clear that the collapse of the Soviet Union happened too suddenly, there wasn’t a coherent vision of what Russia should be, and the leader who took charge, Boris Yeltsin, was very ineffective. To say it quickly, the USSR was divided into different “Soviet socialist republics” so Ukraine was one, Georgia was one, Russia was one, most of the ‘stans in Central Asia (excluding Afghanistan and Pakistan) were SSRs and each SSR had a president and a “supreme Soviet” that were really just a veneer government, and Yeltsin was the president of the Russian SFSR (another wrinkle was the Soviet federal socialist republic, but I won’t get into that) and he was never really supposed to be anybody but he maneuvered to turn this show position into being president of Russia, and he was a clown, like (again I can’t make this up, this is a literally true story) one time he was in Washington DC on a state visit, and there’s this building called the Blair house, which is on Pennsylvania Avenue a few blocks from the White House and it’s used for visiting dignitaries from major countries, well one night Yeltsin, while avoiding the secret service, got outside the house than the fence and onto the sidewalk in his underwear trying to hail a cab because he was drunk and wanted pizza. The secret service found him before a cab picked him up and returned him. The US government never confirmed whether he got his pizza
That is a surprise, for when young Russians come here, they do very well and contribute to American society in a constructive manner.
Well it’s like Mexicans, when you come from a corrupt society and have the hustle needed go succeed in that type of society and you come somewhere where people are generally honest you get an advantage.
 
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Utility Man

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See you guys on the front lines.

Faux news. :LOL:

You'll be the one wearing the white armband, right.


Wonder if it's just a coincidence that chickentendies joined up a day after Mcdonalds pulled out of russia.

:unsure:

"....stop children what's that sound, everybody look what's going down...."



Guess the sanctions must be working.
 

TheParser

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The collapse of the USSR and the 10 years after was a time of great problems and malaise for Russia. There’s essays written about this, but it’s clear that the collapse of the Soviet Union happened too suddenly, there wasn’t a coherent vision of what Russia should be, and the leader who took charge, Boris Yeltsin, was very ineffective. To say it quickly, the USSR was divided into different “Soviet socialist republics” so Ukraine was one, Georgia was one, Russia was one, most of the ‘stans in Central Asia (excluding Afghanistan and Pakistan) were SSRs and each SSR had a president and a “supreme Soviet” that were really just a veneer government, and Yeltsin was the president of the Russian SFSR (another wrinkle was the Soviet federal socialist republic, but I won’t get into that) and he was never really supposed to be anybody but he maneuvered to turn this show position into being president of Russia, and he was a clown, like (again I can’t make this up, this is a literally true story) one time he was in Washington DC on a state visit, and there’s this building called the Blair house, which is on Pennsylvania Avenue a few blocks from the White House and it’s used for visiting dignitaries from major countries, well one night Yeltsin, while avoiding the secret service, got outside the house than the fence and onto the sidewalk in his underwear trying to hail a cab because he was drunk and wanted pizza. The secret service found him before a cab picked him up and returned him. The US government never confirmed whether he got his pizza

Well it’s like Mexicans, when you come from a corrupt society and have the hustle needed go succeed in that type of society and you come somewhere where people are generally honest you get an advantage.
You obviously know of what you speak.

Thanks for the insight.

That the monster has lasted 20 years is, I guess, quite an accomplishment.

He is such a mean individual. Supposedly, thouands of civilians have been killed in a Ukrainian port city. How can he live with himself?
 

ElChupacabra

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No-fly zone "worth the risks"?

Christ, just call it what it is. Declaring a no-fly zone is a declaration of war. You have to actually shoot down Russian planes for there to be a no-fly zone. And you can call it a no-fly zone to try to signal that you have no intentions of invading Russia itself, but then Putin has absolutely no good reason to see it that way.


Either we fight a hot war with Russia, or we do not.
Not if Russia chooses to abide by it, but I'm not sure if that's a bet I'm willing to make.
;)
 

Torus34

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Really?

I didn't know it took 10 years!

Dang!

If it took that long to subdue a backward place like Chechnya, it should by right take 50 years to subdue a developed place like Ukraine.

Hi, TheParser!

Thank you for taking time to post a response.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 

Chainsawmassacre

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Hi, ChickenTendies!

There are some politicians who are willing to send others to die. Nothing new there.

It's worth noting, though, that the most recent conquest of Chechnya took almost 10 years. The Russian war on Ukraine is just some 16 days old. We've a way to go.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
Giving Ukraine fighters is not sending Americans to die
 

Chainsawmassacre

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Several congressional members sent Biden a letter in which they asked he establish a no fly zone. He addressed it in his presser yesterday when he told us that it would start WWIII. I am not saying he won't change his mind; but he was pretty adamant. Right now I am so glad he is keeping a cool head and not governing by emotion
If Biden would have sent Stingers and fighter jets to Ukraine pre invasion the invasion never would have taken place. Instead he put all his eggs in the diplomacy basket and here we are one step from WW3. This is what happens with a weak indecisive president.
 

Credence

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I am confused. Why are they coming in through Mexico???

A Wave of Ukrainians and Russians at the U.S.-Mexico Border Puts Pressure on Biden's Immigration Restrictions​

AUkrainian woman, Sofiia, and her three children were finally allowed to cross the United States-Mexico border near Tijuana on the morning of March 11. It was their third attempt to seek asylum in the U.S.

The border agents that had denied Sophiia and her children had cited Title 42, an obscure and controversial public health rule that allows U.S. officials to circumvent the normal trappings of immigration procedure, including asylum interviews. Lawyers with the Center for Gender and Refugee Studies at UC Hastings eventually helped clear their way.

Migrant advocates say Sofiia and her family’s struggle has directed a spotlight on the Biden Administration’s embrace of Title 42, which has been the subject of an ongoing lawsuit against the U.S., at a time when a growing number of Ukrainians and Russians are attempting to request asylum.

 
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