• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

No Barry, you do not grow the economy from the middle out

You The goal is irrelevant, it's the results that matter. Producing life savings drugs is way more productive then chia pets.

Disagree.. We are talking economics here. While it is true you can't put a value on life,you CAN measure the amount of economic waste that results from shoveling monety at nonexistent cures. Chia pets ,otoh, alway grow!
 
You gotta be extremely irrational to believe this. Furthermore, the amount of civilian technology that came out of the military and NASA is astounding. .
That's a myth- not much useful came from NASA.
 
Disagree.. We are talking economics here. While it is true you can't put a value on life,you CAN measure the amount of economic waste that results from shoveling monety at nonexistent cures. Chia pets ,otoh, alway grow!

Actually you can. Insurance puts a human life (well, Western at least) at about a million. Secondly, we can estimate how much earnings those people would have made on average as well as their taxes.
 
Her is the source post.

This is magical thinking. Government can get their money three ways basically. Government can tax and/or assign fees to take the money OUT of the economy to spend where it could have otherwise been spent elsewhere. Government can borrow against future taxes and fees and spend it and the interest money plus the loan where it would otherwise been spent. Government can print money there by diluting the purchase power of the money making the economy weaker.

If you want the economy to grow get the government out of the way. Have the government try to grow the economy is a good way to waste it. The politically well connected will get the money and we would not have much to show for it.



How do you know it would have been spent elsewhere?

Over all in most cases it would have been spent and of that mostly it would probably have been spent in a better way.

This is the flaw of all opportunity costs when it comes to taxes.

The problem is not so much that taxes are being raised and then spent (as well as being borrowed), but what they are being spent for. Sending the money to five states to keep their state employee pensions temporarily solvent not so much. Financing the development of technology to develop say the productive mining of an asteroid is more so.

They assume money would have been spent otherwise and would have been spent more productively.

Given on what government does spend on I would assume it would have.

That's a big assumption in a non-rational market.

The market is more rational than human beings. The market WILL correct irrational human behavior. That is not something that can be said of the government. The government is more likely to amplify irrational human behavior.

It effectively argues that government spending on medical research which can save thousands of lives is less productive then people buying chia pets.

Chia Pet doesn't rock my boat But here is a link:

Amazon.com: chia pets

Most Chia Pets are under $20.00 and a good medical research study is a few hundred thousand dollars. I am not opposed to government engaging in pure research which is where one needs to go to advance knowledge. For profit corporations are generally more in to applied research and unfortunately the government does this also and on the behalf of corporations for the profit of corporations. Or at least when the government does not directly subsidize corporations (not tax credits, but money given), remember Solyndia?

Does medical technology that cures diseases contribute less to the economy than growth in Chia Pets?

Given that Chia Pets are just some sort of decoration with a living element like a piloted plant, the part of the economy it has is small; but is done on a personal level so people who purchase such gets value out of the deal. The development of a single medical technological item may or not be larger that Chia Pets. Now if you were to compare all non-utilitarian decorative items vs. medical items who were primarily researched by the government I think the former might over weigh the latter but both for profit and non-profit orgs also do research on their own and that would cause the latter to show more growth if they were included.


Inflation occurs when the total usable, available money supply exceeds the value of assets.

More accurately it is the amount of the available money supply with respect to the value of the over all economy.

Printing more money by itself does not automatically equate to dilution as expanding the money supply at a lower rate than asset production leads to deflation. Printing money by itself doesn't tell us anything in isolation.

And every time the government issues a bond the money supply expands. At this time the money supply exceeds the economy by a factor 2 or 3 and the value of the currency with respect to the economy decreases each year.

Do you think that nuclear power would be in the form it is without government helping?

No we would probably not have adventured so far out and have been more cautious in its development if it were not for government's "help".

Do you think that the biotech would be in the form it is without government helping?

I am not opposed to government funding research. However, when government begins to promote the outcomes of research is where the harm may enter and not just to the economy but may be for environmental harm.

Do you think that wireless communication would be in the form it is without government helping?

I believe that over all the government was more of a hindrance than help on this.

Cable television in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although the rise of free broadcast television during the 1950s greatly damaged Hollywood, many in the entertainment industry saw the great potential profitability of offering television for a fee. After 25 million American televisions tuned to a musical version of Cinderella in 1957, for example, executives calculated that had Hollywood received $0.25 for each TV, it would have earned more than $6 million in one day without distribution costs.[SUP][3][/SUP] Due to many legal, regulatory, and technological obstacles, however, cable television in the United States in its first twenty-four years was used almost exclusively to relay over-the-air commercial broadcasting television channels to remote and inaccessible areas. It also became popular in other areas which were not remote, but whose mountainous terrain caused poor reception over the air. Original television programming came in 1972 with government deregulation of the industry.[SUP][1][/SUP]

There's a balance between too much government and too little, but your radical "all government is bad" is clearly the wrong position.

I'm not saying that "all government is bad" but I do mean that when it comes to any government expendeture we should question whether it really does serve the general welfare or is it only serving a parochial interest.
 
Where it would otherwise been spent?

Perhaps the money that came from taxes would be spent more wisely if no borrowed money would supplement unwise expenditures.


Borrowing was the method in which said funds were introduced into the economy, rendering that statement rather useless.

The point I was trying to make is that the government will have to pay for the interest at some future date and at that date the money would most likely have been better spent on something else than what it originally was borrowed for.

With real borrowing costs in negative territory and a still depressed level of private investment, insisting that the government sit on their hands for fear of negative impact is naive.

What is naive is expecting that the government will always be able to borrow to pay for what the taxes cannot cover and one day will reach the point where the government will default on the interest owed and that will be a BAD day.

Speaking of magical thinking. This type of simplistic approach is largely useless.

The magical thinking is that government money is somehow magic money. All the money that government gets is taken from the economy is some way or another. And in general the way government spends the money is less efficient and has less utility when it does so.

Large corporations with a bloated bureaucracy who go that way tend to be broken up or go under. Governments that go down this path will lead the economy to a depression and eventually the nation to a ruin.
 
Over all in most cases it would have been spent and of that mostly it would probably have been spent in a better way.

Which is a big assumption. Furthermore, you don't define "better."

The problem is not so much that taxes are being raised and then spent (as well as being borrowed), but what they are being spent for. Sending the money to five states to keep their state employee pensions temporarily solvent not so much. Financing the development of technology to develop say the productive mining of an asteroid is more so.

Not necessarily. Keeping the pensions solvent ensures that states provide a steady stream of income to retirees which ensures that consumer spending in those states is maintained at a base level. Second, it keeps states from cutting things like education and R&D credits. It's not as simple as you are projecting it to be.

Given on what government does spend on I would assume it would have.

Given what consumers spend their money on, a reasonable, educated person wouldn't paint with such broad strokes.

The market is more rational than human beings. The market WILL correct irrational human behavior. That is not something that can be said of the government. The government is more likely to amplify irrational human behavior.

Why is the market more rational than human beings? That makes no sense. The market is made of human beings who are not rational. How can the sum of irrational be more rational? Does putting 15 crazy people in a room make them more crazy or less crazy? You are making assumptions here based on your bias rather than what is likely and true. You are starting from a position that government is bad and working from there rather than starting at the foundation: rational behavior of individuals. Both the government and market are both made of the same people. To argue that one is more rational and the other is not when they are composed of the same material is highly illogical and suggests you are not even trying to hide your bias.

Chia Pet doesn't rock my boat But here is a link:

Amazon.com: chia pets

Most Chia Pets are under $20.00 and a good medical research study is a few hundred thousand dollars. I am not opposed to government engaging in pure research which is where one needs to go to advance knowledge. For profit corporations are generally more in to applied research and unfortunately the government does this also and on the behalf of corporations for the profit of corporations. Or at least when the government does not directly subsidize corporations (not tax credits, but money given), remember Solyndia?

Given that the energy loan program has less than a 2% default rate, I'm not going to put much weight in that. Only partisan hackjobs focus on the small default rate that commercial private banks would love to have and ignore all of the other successes as proof that such programs don't work. It would be saying that the SBA doesn't work because some businesses fail while ignoring that the majority of businesses who get SBA loans do well, including the company that Representative Ryan choose appear at to bash Obama on taking his speech out of context. It's a crying shame how the DNC didn't pick up on that to beat the crap out of him for massive hypocrisy.

And every time the government issues a bond the money supply expands

Uh No. A bond is a promissory note to pay a certain amount of interest or lump payment at a certain date. When a consumer buys a bond, they give X dollars to the government in exchange for the promissory note. This actually reduces the money supply as the consumer is no longer able to access it. When the government then uses the money that purchased the bond, the money supply then returns to its prior state. There is no expansion of money supply when bonds are issued. You are confusing this with printing money.

No we would probably not have adventured so far out and have been more cautious in its development if it were not for government's "help".

Glad to see you are not crazy like certain people here.

I believe that over all the government was more of a hindrance than help on this.

I wasn't referring to cable tv.

I'm not saying that "all government is bad" but I do mean that when it comes to any government expendeture we should question whether it really does serve the general welfare or is it only serving a parochial interest.

How do we define parochial interest then? Because I can name a great many things that might qualify. Including things certain parties would fight to the end to preserve.
 
Obviously, you grow the economy from the top and it trickles down. Just like building a house, you build the roof first. Everybody knows that.
379-reaganomics-we-told-them-the-wealth-would-trickle-down.jpg
 
Where the rubber hits the road- the question is this. Who is better at allocating capital-the central planners or the market. I think history has answered that decisively.
 
Not technically true.

Ford initially raised labor rates, to the chagrin of other businesses, in order to cut his nasty annual turnover.

He also cut the price of the cars drastically due to increased production efficiency, correctly believing that lower profit margins coupled with substantially higher volume would massively increase overall profitability.

He remarked once that when the 2 curves began to intersect (lower sales price coupled with higher wages), that his workers would be able to afford cars, which was true.

I think its important to understand that he wasn't just raising wages out of the goodness of his heart or simply because he wanted his employees to have cars. He did it because it gave him a competitive advantage to attract the best workers and eliminate his turnover rate. In a strong economy, this happens naturally. As the available supply of laborers decreases due to rising employment, businesses are forced to raise their wages in order to compete for a limited resource. It is not something that is mandated by the government.
 
Perhaps the money that came from taxes would be spent more wisely if no borrowed money would supplement unwise expenditures.

Perhaps. It could also serve to prolong economic downturns and growth. You'd also struggle to find a concrete consensus as to the definition of a wise expenditure. What many count as haphazard serves an important function in someone else's backyard.


The point I was trying to make is that the government will have to pay for the interest at some future date and at that date the money would most likely have been better spent on something else than what it originally was borrowed for.

Which doesn't negate the perceived need for the borrowed funds at the time of issuance. It's a decision that has to be weighed with current borrowing costs and economic conditions in mind. To run deficits of this magnitude when unemployment is in the 4's is irresponsible (unless in a time of war or crisis), running substantial deficits to offset similarly sized declines in private investment and employment while borrowing costs remain at historic lows is an entirely different story.

What is naive is expecting that the government will always be able to borrow to pay for what the taxes cannot cover and one day will reach the point where the government will default on the interest owed and that will be a BAD day.

There's little incentive for a sovereign nation to default on debt service, let alone a nation as influential and credible in the realm of international finance as the US.

The magical thinking is that government money is somehow magic money. All the money that government gets is taken from the economy is some way or another. And in general the way government spends the money is less efficient and has less utility when it does so. Large corporations with a bloated bureaucracy who go that way tend to be broken up or go under. Governments that go down this path will lead the economy to a depression and eventually the nation to a ruin.
The Treasury can in fact issue a dollar into circulation without draining the economy of said dollar. It's happened throughout modern history and has contributed to a great deal of growth that would have otherwise gone unrealized. This isn't to say that a government can borrow without consequences, but your understanding is slightly less than magical.
 
He didn't do it...it took a war. Is that what you want?

Well that's Government action.
But as I've posted here before,if a war was would spur recovery, then all the orld's countries should get together and declare World War 3.
We'll all do all the things you do for wars. Draft armies, deploy armies, build weapons etc etc. The one stipulation. Nobody is allowed to kill anybody . All guns are fired in the air and all bombs are detonated in harmless area.
Think that would work?
 
Obviously, you grow the economy from the top and it trickles down. Just like building a house, you build the roof first. Everybody knows that.
View attachment 67152056

I'm sorry to disappoint you , but not only does 'trickle down' work. It triple works times5 to the power of 10.

That's why, for example Detroit is dead. Plenty of union workers, there, right? Should be prosperous by lib ( Cough )'logic', right?

Why aren't there any jobs? Because there any job CREATORS there to employ union workers.
 
Yawn...

The smart people can talk till they are blue in the face. It's all "in one ear and out the other" where Obama is concerned and it's "if Obama says it, it must be true" where the people who listen to him are concerned.


Yawn...the smart people can talk till they are blue in the face...and it will go in one ear and out the other to the sheep that adhere to the belief that maybe one day....if we just keep trying again and again...."Trickle down economics" won't fail and might succeed. Hope springs eternal.
 
I'm sorry to disappoint you , but not only does 'trickle down' work. It triple works times5 to the power of 10.

That's why, for example Detroit is dead. Plenty of union workers, there, right? Should be prosperous by lib ( Cough )'logic', right?

Why aren't there any jobs? Because there any job CREATORS there to employ union workers.

I rest my case...LOL
 
Yawn...the smart people can talk till they are blue in the face...and it will go in one ear and out the other to the sheep that adhere to the belief that maybe one day....if we just keep trying again and again...."Trickle down economics" won't fail and might succeed. Hope springs eternal.

shrug...

You would prefer the sheep believe in the empty rhetoric of the liberals? The failed attempts of the Obama administration? Or do you think the sheep should follow you in your acceptance of Obama when he takes things in his own hands...makes his own decisions...violates his Oath of Office, the Law and the Constitution?

We know all that won't work, but hey...the sheep are docile, right?
 
I rest my case...LOL

The fatal mistake you make ( like most liberals) is to assume utopia. That is, that there is a system that 'works'-that provides high paying jobs at all times with no economic downturns. Pure fantasy. In the REAL world( where Conservatives tend to dwell) we deal in systems that are optimal. That is, provides the best results among alternatives.

BTW I noticed you won't go near my Detroit example with a ten foot pole-why is that? Why isn't Dettroit flourishing if you " grow the economy from the middle'???
 
The fatal mistake you make ( like most liberals) is to assume utopia. That is, that there is a system that 'works'-that provides high paying jobs at all times with no economic downturns. Pure fantasy. In the REAL world( where Conservatives tend to dwell) we deal in systems that are optimal. That is, provides the best results among alternatives.

BTW I noticed you won't go near my Detroit example with a ten foot pole-why is that? Why isn't Dettroit flourishing if you " grow the economy from the middle'???


It is better to aim for Utopia (Democrats) and fail and end up with the closest thing to it....than it is to aim for Aristocracy(Republicans) and succeed.
 
It is better to aim for Utopia (Democrats) and fail...

ummm...no it isn't.

The damage done by pushing a failed agenda can very well be insurmountable.
 
ummm...no it isn't.The damage done by pushing a failed agenda can very well be insurmountable.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that the GOP pushing this nation towards an aristocracy is much much MUCH more damaging.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that the GOP pushing this nation towards an aristocracy is much much MUCH more damaging.

It's too bad your liberal leanings doesn't allow you to know what the conservative really want.
 
Back
Top Bottom