No "...and lead us not into temptation"?

[Daisy]

Reading up just now at the Daily Mail, I discovered this article on Pope Francis's concern over "...and lead us not into temptation":
Pope Francis wants to change words to the Lord's Prayer | Daily Mail Online

Several years ago this phrase, which I had repeated thousands and thousands of times, began to bug me, so I asked a philosopher/theologian friend of mine about it. He told me that what the phrase means is "subject us not to the trial." This made much more sense to me, so that is the phrase I've used ever since.

Has anybody else also wondered about "and lead us not into temptation"?

A cross reference scripture for this verse is 1 Corinthians 10:13..."No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it."

I think that is basically what we are praying for with Jesus' prayer...keeping in mind who is responsible for all temptations...Satan...1 John 5:19..."We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

Also remembering that we are imperfect flesh...Matthew 26:41...Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[HonestJoe]

Reading up just now at the Daily Mail...

Deliver us from evil!

Has anybody else also wondered about "and lead us not into temptation"?

I do remember wondering about that but I moved on to wondering why God would care about us blindly echoing a set of specific words regardless of what they were.

 

[Daisy]

Deliver us from evil!

I do remember wondering about that but I moved on to wondering why God would care about us blindly echoing a set of specific words regardless of what they were.

Jesus merely gave his followers a model of a prayer to follow...showing things we should be praying for...of course our prayers should be put in our own words and felt from the heart...mimicking someone else's words cannot be heartfelt...

 

[nota bene]

Deliver us from evil!

I do remember wondering about that but I moved on to wondering why God would care about us blindly echoing a set of specific words regardless of what they were.

Jesus had something to say about this.

 

[Chomsky]

Actually, longer than that, Chomsky. I was raised to say it that way from childhood, and I'm pretty long in the tooth. :lol:

Interesting.

I assume you're Catholic, because that was my reference. And in my Parish at mass, it's been fairly recent.

 

[Superfly]

Interesting.

I assume you're Catholic, because that was my reference. And in my Parish at mass, it's been fairly recent.

No, sir. Was raised Southern Baptist.

 

[Chomsky]

No, sir. Was raised Southern Baptist.

Then that would explain why you heard that phrase well before I did.

It just changed recently, in Catholicism.

 

[Superfly]

Then that would explain why you heard that phrase well before I did.

It just changed recently, in Catholicism.

I walked away from that denomination a long time ago. Too much hypocricy, everywhere I turned. Roy Moore is a Southern Baptist, if that gives you any frame of reference.

Disclaimer: Not a blanket generalization of all Southern Baptists so don't get your knickers in a twist, those of you who are Southern Baptist.

 

[tosca1]

Reading up just now at the Daily Mail, I discovered this article on Pope Francis's concern over "...and lead us not into temptation":
Pope Francis wants to change words to the Lord's Prayer | Daily Mail Online

Several years ago this phrase, which I had repeated thousands and thousands of times, began to bug me, so I asked a philosopher/theologian friend of mine about it. He told me that what the phrase means is "subject us not to the trial." This made much more sense to me, so that is the phrase I've used ever since.

Has anybody else also wondered about "and lead us not into temptation"?

Like you, I wondered about that too.
But not anymore..... as someone explained it to me the way it was explained to you.

It does makes sense now as to what that temptation is - after all, it's temptation that will lead us going
off the narrow path. And, God does puts people to the test.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Testing-People



If trials are meant to refine us.......maybe, we should pray instead, that God help us pass the test?
I do pray for that. That He won't let me go astray, and to keep my faith strong.

 

[nota bene]

Like you, I wondered about that too.
But not anymore..... as someone explained it to me the way it was explained to you.

It does makes sense now as to what that temptation is - after all, it's temptation that will lead us going
off the narrow path. And, God does puts people to the test.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Testing-People

If trials are meant to refine us.......maybe, we should pray instead, that God help us pass the test?
I do pray for that. That He won't let me go astray, and to keep my faith strong.

Yes, if I am to be subjected to the trial, please give me the tools so that I won't fail.

Meanwhile, I've often thought of the "..forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" too and how, if I'm honest, I hope that I am not forgiven in kind.

A phrase from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer that's stuck with me all my life is "...not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses." That's definitely my hope.

 

[Lovebug]

Semantics. God knows what's in your heart, and a word or two won't change it.

 

[CrabCake]

I do remember wondering about that but I moved on to wondering why God would care about us blindly echoing a set of specific words regardless of what they were.

Blindly echoing a set of specific words would be rather pointless. But using words that you truly mean but that were written by someone else makes a lot of sense. It's just like what we do when we sing worship songs we didn't write ourselves. We may not have written it, but we mean every word of it and it's just as meaningful. I think there's a place for reciting prayers you did not write.

 

[HonestJoe]

Blindly echoing a set of specific words would be rather pointless. But using words that you truly mean but that were written by someone else makes a lot of sense. It's just like what we do when we sing worship songs we didn't write ourselves. We may not have written it, but we mean every word of it and it's just as meaningful. I think there's a place for reciting prayers you did not write.

Not really my place to say but I’m sure there is for those that way inclined. It’s not what I’ve experienced in any of the church services I’m attended though, where words are just mouthed by the congregation, especially of something they’re so familiar with.

As I see it, the whole question of the Pope declaring that one interpretation of scripture previously expected of all Catholics worldwide should be replaced with a different one interpretation expected of all Catholics worldwide jars with the principle of drawing individual meaning from worship. I guess it’s just part of a wider issue with organised religion.

 

[nota bene]

Not really my place to say but I’m sure there is for those that way inclined. It’s not what I’ve experienced in any of the church services I’m attended though, where words are just mouthed by the congregation, especially of something they’re so familiar with.

Maybe some do pray by rote, but I grew up high-church Episcopalian, and some of the prayers in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer are beloved to me because of their power and beauty. I say some of them daily from my heart. And some phrases have informed my entire life. One of them is "...not weighing our merits but pardoning our offenses." Every time I’ve ever thought about littering or taking another animal into my home or being wasteful, I’ve immediately thought about being a “faithful steward of God’s bounty.” Familiarity doesn’t always breed indifference; sometimes it nurtures a deeper understanding and therefore growth.

 

[vesper]

The Our Father or to others The Lord's Prayer was Yeshua's response to His disciples asking how to pray.

It is a blueprint on how to pray.

Now the disciples were all well taught in the ways of G-d. They certainly were not ignorant to G-d's Word and unfortunately many are today.

When you take the first couple of lines of the prayer, Our Father which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name one is acknowledging G-d as the Almighty and Holy. When you enter into prayer you go before the most Holy One. But those like the disciples Yeshua was talking to were taught G-d is Holy and sin keeps one out of fellowship with Him. So before having an audience with the Most High if there be any sin in ones life that is a good time to confess it ask for forgiveness so that He may hear your prayer. It is also a time as the disciples were taught to enter His gates with thanksgiving in your hearts and enter His courts with praise. It is a time to acknowledge to G-d you recognize His blessings with a thankful heart.

That's as far as I wish to go at this time because the rest of the lines in the prayer also have much more meaning when you consider who Yeshua was speaking to and their understanding of Scripture.

Maybe some day I will start a thread here dissecting each line of the Our Father or as others say the Lord's Prayer but for now I think this is enough. Peace to you and yours.

 

[ludin]

"subject us not to the trial" would be a reasonable description of the way I've always read the phrase. It has never been something I questioned.

Since we're on the subject, when did they change ...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." to "forgive us our debts..."?

Debt would be a more reflective term of the day. If you trespassed against someone then you owed them a debt.
They could forgive the debt if they wished.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Reading up just now at the Daily Mail, I discovered this article on Pope Francis's concern over "...and lead us not into temptation":
Pope Francis wants to change words to the Lord's Prayer | Daily Mail Online

Several years ago this phrase, which I had repeated thousands and thousands of times, began to bug me, so I asked a philosopher/theologian friend of mine about it. He told me that what the phrase means is "subject us not to the trial." This made much more sense to me, so that is the phrase I've used ever since.

Has anybody else also wondered about "and lead us not into temptation"?

I'm not a member of the Church, but the Pope's reasoning makes sense to me. Unless you think it's God that tempts you, I guess.