No amnesty before border is secured, e-verify for all employers and enforcement.

[brothern]

The huge vast majority of people did not trespass into this country.Plus many of us who did break the law either got fined,went to jail or did community service. Anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigration are not the same thing. Legality does matter. If they go back home on their own, come in legally and stay here legally then they are more than welcome to stay. Sneaking into another country,using resources that belong to citizens and in many cases using fraudulent ID is not a minor offense . They do cost tax paying citizens money by using resources that are supposed to be for only citizens. They lower the wages of tax paying citizens by illegally flooding the labor market thus making them a burden to other tax paying citizens. They use infrastructure which does cost tax paying citizens. Many of these illegals also commit crimes other than illegal immigration thus costing tax paying citizens more money.

And if we allow them a chance at citizenship, on the deal that we get increased border security, we will be able to hold lawbreakers accountable and let them pay taxes; while preventing this in the future.

I figured Godwins Law was going to be used in this thread

Godwin's Law pertains to the Nazis, not the Eastern Bloc German state. The Ministerium für Staatssicherheit (Stasi) was the East German intelligence and police force charged with the security of the DDR. It was a comment on your insistence of issuing a state license as to regulate a person's entire interaction with his/her government.

 

[brothern]

You've got your script all set don't you? Again they are not immigrants, there is no chance they will become citizens outside of bulk legislative action and they're not here for that in any regard. They come for the money. Generally these are not highly skilled or educated individuals - if they were they wouldn't have to break in through the back door as they'd be allowed in through the front. Those who are skilled, I want nothing from them but for them to return to wherever it is they came from. There are plenty of folks willing to immigrate (legally since you obviously don't understand that distinction) and I'd rather have them.

Still playing the same game. Just because they are here illegally and should be deported (that's the penalty for coming here illegally or overstaying your visa) doesn't mean they are bad people, or dirty or any of the other things that have obviously passed through your mind. Even if they are friendly and hugable the illegals should still be deported as we come across them.

Mhmm, OK. They're not "bad," they're just incredibly stupid. That's your defense of your position; you hate the stupid immigrants, so we should deport them. Thanks for trying to clarify.

:roll:

 

[clownboy]

And if we allow them a chance at citizenship, on the deal that we get increased border security, we will be able to hold lawbreakers accountable and let them pay taxes; while preventing this in the future.

Two things. One - we've had that same bargain before and the last time we fell for it, well, we ended up here with even more illegals and a porous border. Two - why? Why give the invaders and the overstayers anything? Giving them a chance at citizenship is a slap in the face for every real immigrant, those who come here the right way and for the right reasons.

 

[clownboy]

Mhmm, OK. They're not "bad," they're just incredibly stupid. That's your defense of your position; you hate the stupid immigrants, so we should deport them. Thanks for trying to clarify.

:roll:

That's all on YOU, not me. Not being highly skilled does not make one stupid, though that seems to be YOUR idea of how it works. You can't dig yourself out of the hole you dug of your own accord. Your posts here are permanent and all can see what you really think of the folks you're trying to defend in their criminality.

 

[brothern]

That's all on YOU, not me. Not being highly skilled does not make one stupid, though that seems to be YOUR idea of how it works. You can't dig yourself out of the hole you dug of your own accord. Your posts here are permanent and all can see what you really think of the folks you're trying to defend in their criminality.

You've just got done saying that immigrants are unskilled and uneducated. That does not make one stupid? You've also been calling them criminals (Edit: Or maybe that was someone else?). You've got most of the illegal immigrant stereotypes covered.

And I'm glad that my posts are permanent. I'm proud that I am an American and that I live in the wealthiest country in the world. I am appreciative that the only reason I was granted this opportunity was that fact that I won the parental lottery, with absolutely no effort on my part. I appreciate that this country was founded on immigration, and that the real owners of this land were killed, persecuted and shoved onto inhospitable slivers of land by my ancestors. I would never want to lump myself into the group of people (not you, clownboy) who are on the far fringes of this issue, and believe that they belong to a exclusive, self-righteous club due to no effort of their own.

 

[jamesrage]

And if we allow them a chance at citizenship,

They already have the same chance of citizenship that anyone outside of America has.They should not get special treatment just because they trespassed into the US.

on the deal that we get increased border security,we will be able to hold lawbreakers accountable and let them pay taxes;

You mean just like we were promised increased border security during the Reagan amnesty?No.It is merely a ploy to sucker anti-illegal immigration folks into accepting amnesty.Because a couple of things will happen.One is once all the illegals have amnesty the border security will be scrapped or neutered or Two some pro-illegal scum in office will falsely claim the border is secured and start granting amnesty.

while preventing this in the future.

Amnesty amounts to pouring gas on a fire and expecting it to be put out.Because what will happen is that after these 12-20 million illegals are granted amnesty there will be 40-60 million illegals over a 20-30 year period sneaking into the country hopping to get legal status.

 

[clownboy]

You've just got done saying that immigrants are unskilled and uneducated. That does not make one stupid? You've also been calling them criminals. You've got most of the immigrant stereotypes covered.

You have a serious hate for the folks you like to defend. Being unskilled and/or uneducated does not mean you're stupid. However repeating the same busted point may. None of these are stereotypes for immigrants, though I agree they have been stereotypes for illegal aliens. But considering the US allows significant numbers of actual immigrants every year who are skilled and educated, perhaps those stereotypes are apt.

And I'm glad that my posts are permanent. I'm proud that I am an American and that I live in the wealthiest country in the world. I am appreciative that the only reason I was granted this opportunity was that fact that I won the parental lottery, with absolutely no effort on my part. I appreciate that this country was founded on immigration, and that the real owners of this land were killed, persecuted and shoved onto inhospitable silvers of land by my ancestors. I would never want to lump myself into the group of people (not you, clownboy) who are on the far fringes of this issue, and believe that they belong to a exclusive, self-righteous club due to no effort o

Huge chip on your shoulder there and facts don't appear to be your strong suit. We weren't "founded on immigration", we were founded by the first citizens (sort of how it works when you create a new country). :mrgreen:

You were "granted this opportunity" by your parents and theirs who became a part of this country, working to make and keep it better than others, in part so you would have this "opportunity". And ALL land, everywhere in the modern world once belonged to someone else and was taken by force. If that bothers you terribly, well, hard to say where you could move to. Finally, of the two of us, you are by far further into the fringe of the issue and given the level of awareness you have demonstrated here I would not want you to join me thank you very much.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

So how about all the really bawd people that wander into our country? doncha think all the Mexican drug cartel
and MS-13 guys need to be made citizens as well? I'm positive that each and every last one of these supposed 11 million people
are upstanding citizens worthy of becoming Americans and voting for more socialism wouldn't you agree?

 

[ChezC3]

ChezC3 So your providing gainful employment to them is the crime not their being in the country illegally?
oh its all so confusing my head hurts

I never said this.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

No now that you mention it I guess I did.
if the idea of making a criminal out of an innocent business owner
doesn't smack of insanity I don't know what does.
I'll ask you a few questions:
Do you really think for one second that our government doesn't want these illegals here?
Do you really think that if they did want them out of the country they couldn't get em out?
Do you really think that a second amnesty is going to resolve this issue?

has there ever been a nation that had no borders that continued to exist?

 

[AngryOldGuy]

When the economy went to hell in a handbasket back in 08
300,000 non-citizens of the Hispanic persuasion disappeared from the Phoenix metro area overnight.

 

[polgara]

The problem is, most of what you have written is not true. Illegal aliens have jobs, homes, drive cars, and receive government support in some degree or another.

The real problem is in a broad sense, illegal aliens are people who failed to figure out how to survive in the failed country of their origin. Other than what appears to have been a desire to work, there is little else they have brought with them.

Many of the challenges related to income, government deficits, lowered tax revenue, and challenged education systems can be directly attributed to this massive influx of unskilled, and poorly educated people.

The attaction of a relative comfortable life must be removed, and the real consequences of their illegal entry enforced if these problems are ever to be addressed.

A sane guest worker program is needed, and severe penalties for breaching our immigration laws must be enforced.

Good evening, ocean515. :2wave:

You mean like most other countries on this planet, including Mexico, our nearest neighbor? It seems to be working our very well for them! I can't recall reading the news about any American sneaking into Mexico, and being welcomed with open arms! They consider them illegal, which they would be, and treat them accordingly! :2mad:

 

[ocean515]

Good evening, ocean515. :2wave:

You mean like most other countries on this planet, including Mexico, our nearest neighbor? It seems to be working our very well for them! I can't recall reading the news about any American sneaking into Mexico, and being welcomed with open arms! They consider them illegal, which they would be, and treat them accordingly! :2mad:

Hi Polgara -

As a one time frequent visitor to Mexico, I can confirm you are absolutely correct about the abysmal treatment of illegal aliens by the Mexican government. Add to that fact that homeownership is a dicey issue for non-citizens, and the Mexican government push to promote the invasion of the United States begins to take on a more dangerous tone.