No $4,500 Electric Car For You!

[RF667799]

Older cars are still on the road and they don't come close to meeting current NHTSA specs are have ever been threatened to be removed because they do not. they just cannot be sold as new by the OEMs. All new cars must neet the current safety and pollution regs.

I have a 2010 Jetta with 120K plus miles. I'm not giving it up anytime soon because I don't like 99.9% of current cars. I hate SUVs and I don't want auto-pilot technology that tries to take driving away from me. I like to drive. Mine is a 6-speed manual.

Who has ever hinted that motorcycles or trikes must be automotive regs? That is a different class of vehicles. Do motorcycles even have ABS?

If people want to drive a cheap car then buy a used one. All new cars must meet the current 2021 NHTSA regs.

My trike has ABS and electronic traction control, and a lot of motorcycles do as well. I don't believe it's currently mandated.

Those Revology Mustangs don't meet current safety regulations for passenger cars. They say so, right on their website. Lack of airbags alone ensures that. I believe their modern engines do pass emissions, but they're not run on the gas mileage loop either. Someone paying a quarter million for one probably doesn't care about gas mileage.

A SXS ATV doesn't meet NHTSA regulations, but can be permitted for use on municipal streets. Even one of those cheap Chinese cars is probably safer than my trike in a crash. Of course the standards are different. That's the point. If it was all about safety, it seems motorcycles and trikes shouldn't be allowed at all. If I can pay 25 grand or more and drive a non-compliant off road vehicle around town, why not allow some class of cheap city car limited to surface streets?

I agree about most modern cars. I'm a car enthusiast and most of them have all the personality of a toaster oven. Much as I like internal combustion engines, my 2500HD could be replaced by an electric truck with no problem, if the electric had the capabilities I require. Gas engine or not, there's no soul in it. An appliance. That's one thing the Revology Mustangs and some of their cousins from other manufacturers do supply.

We've probably beat this to death. Thanks for the chat.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Car insurance lobby. Buying both sides. Don't try to pretend it's just the left responsible.

Part of the 55mph mandate was due to old American cars crushing little Japanese cars in accidents at freeway speeds. Injuries cost insurance companies profits. Especially catastrophic ones.

Personally I would love to see an "m2" (no freeway) class for cars like there is for motorcycles. We already allow golf carts on the road in California. And they ain't safe at all.

Whoa, wait a second...we allow "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles"...which is not the same as a regular car on the freeway.
NEV's are restricted to city streets and 25 mph.

But it's true they offer scant protection against anything...you ARE IN a golf cart.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This is just stupid. You remember Yugos? Why do you think they didn't sell well here?

Here consumer, you can buy this utter piece of shit, but it's new, for $5000, or you can buy this used car that you will like driving much better for $5000, your choice...

You can build cars here with no climate control, no power anything, no cruise, manual windows and so on. They would be much cheaper, yet no one wants them, thus they don't get built. I mean seriously, how goddamn lacking of business sense do you have to be to compare the market for basic vehicles in a market like India with not even 1/10th of our per-capita income, to the market in the United States? You know, there is a huge market in India for 250 sq foot flats that lack A/C, why do we not have more of those for sale here, must be big government regulations...

There is still a market for feature phones in India yet not in the United States? You think that is due to government regulations as well? There is a market for cheap iphone knockoffs in China yet not in the United States, you think that is due to government regulations as well?

You know why there is no nation on earth that is libertarian? Let me give you a hint, its because it's a stupid ideology that results in stupid beliefs like the notion that the reason we don't have Tata Nanos in the United States is just regulations. I mean seriously, even communism has a better track record in governance than libertarianism, and communism was an abysmal failure.

By all means, let's drop those pesky progressive regulations so we can sell Tata Nanos here, even though no one wants them. Who wouldn't love to drive around in these pieces of shit and as a bonus, get that wonderful pollution that goes along with the libertarian paradise of no regulations:

Well said but I do think we SHOULD allow SOME of these "super cheap Chinese electric golf kart type mini-kars", but with the following restrictions:

1. Electronically limited to 45 mph
2. Use restricted TO city surface streets within APPROVED areas or outside city limits in approved RURAL TOWNS, again ONLY on streets or highways with 45 mph speed limits or less.**
3. Full 3 point safety belts required for all passenger seating.

Ever since I retired, my own PERSONAL car use consists of (a) supermarket, (b) local post office, (c) drugstore, (d) gas station/convenience store, or (e) local tax accountant/notary.
All of these are within about five miles and all of them are accessible on city streets that are 45 mph and under.
So I actually WOULD BE the ideal market for those stupid POS Chinese golf-kart-kars, because other than the above, the rest of my driving is WITH my wife Karen and we use our 2017 Pacifica van,
which is a luxury land yacht with full handicap accessibility and (slightly) over 300 HP.

I don't NEED an SUV, and I HAVE a silly project car which I am messing around with for fun...and it's never going to be a serious car for city commutes.
A tiny cheap glorified golf-kart-kar is exactly what I need, to be honest.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Except a quarter million dollars will get you into a brand new vehicle with no airbags, no ABS, no back up cameras, no side impact beams, no intrusive A-pillars.....

Almost like a certain segment of the population was deliberately exempted from all the stuff that is for the good of society.

According to state DMV's (well, most of them anyway) it is NOT a brand new car, it's a refurbished resto-mod OLD car.
It's not much different than the developer who bought my old place in Venice, tore down EVERYTHING except a section of a rear corner wall and the back wall, and rebuilt every other square inch of the place, and was still able to list it as a "remodeled" house.
You'd be very hard pressed to find ANYTHING in that house that's from the old place.

Well, same with these Mustangs, the sheet metal is "original", but once you've dropped a Coyote engine and a Tremec (is it a Tremec? I didn't double check) transmission and 4-wheel discs, it's hardly
what you'd think of as a 1960's Mustang, but since it still has an original VIN and Date of Manufacture, it's a restored and upgraded OLD car.

If I take the SHELL and interior of an old 1960's Chrysler Imperial and drop it on a modern CHASSIS, equip it with 4-wheel discs and independent rear suspension and drop
a Chrysler Pentastar supercharged 3.6L V6 in it, is it still a 1960's Imperial?
As long as I have the old VIN and the body sheet metal? Yes.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

According to state DMV's (well, most of them anyway) it is NOT a brand new car, it's a refurbished resto-mod OLD car.
It's not much different than the developer who bought my old place in Venice, tore down EVERYTHING except a section of a rear corner wall and the back wall, and rebuilt every other square inch of the place, and was still able to list it as a "remodeled" house.
You'd be very hard pressed to find ANYTHING in that house that's from the old place.

Well, same with these Mustangs, the sheet metal is "original", but once you've dropped a Coyote engine and a Tremec (is it a Tremec? I didn't double check) transmission and 4-wheel discs, it's hardly
what you'd think of as a 1960's Mustang, but since it still has an original VIN and Date of Manufacture, it's a restored and upgraded OLD car.

If I take the SHELL and interior of an old 1960's Chrysler Imperial and drop it on a modern CHASSIS, equip it with 4-wheel discs and independent rear suspension and drop
a Chrysler Pentastar supercharged 3.6L V6 in it, is it still a 1960's Imperial?
As long as I have the old VIN and the body sheet metal? Yes.

The Mustang GTs used Getrag ( sp) for the last few years. The 350 used Tremac. Things might have changed in 2020

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The Mustang GTs used Getrag ( sp) for the last few years. The 350 used Tremac. Things might have changed in 2020

Both great transmissions.

 

[RF667799]

According to state DMV's (well, most of them anyway) it is NOT a brand new car, it's a refurbished resto-mod OLD car.
It's not much different than the developer who bought my old place in Venice, tore down EVERYTHING except a section of a rear corner wall and the back wall, and rebuilt every other square inch of the place, and was still able to list it as a "remodeled" house.
You'd be very hard pressed to find ANYTHING in that house that's from the old place.

Well, same with these Mustangs, the sheet metal is "original", but once you've dropped a Coyote engine and a Tremec (is it a Tremec? I didn't double check) transmission and 4-wheel discs, it's hardly
what you'd think of as a 1960's Mustang, but since it still has an original VIN and Date of Manufacture, it's a restored and upgraded OLD car.

If I take the SHELL and interior of an old 1960's Chrysler Imperial and drop it on a modern CHASSIS, equip it with 4-wheel discs and independent rear suspension and drop
a Chrysler Pentastar supercharged 3.6L V6 in it, is it still a 1960's Imperial?
As long as I have the old VIN and the body sheet metal? Yes.

There are resto mod companies, but look closer at the Revology website. Their Mustangs are new construction, made under exemptions for low volume (high dollar) manufacturers. The price makes them pretty irrelevant to me, except as a "If I win the lottery" daydream. Even then, I think I would rather invest in an actual first generation Camaro restoration.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Both great transmissions.

The getrag has had issues with shifting from 1 to 2 ( a fork getting bent not a mechanic so I might be using the wrong term) generally from really hard acceleration runs

 

[Lisa]

The getrag has had issues with shifting from 1 to 2 ( a fork getting bent not a mechanic so I might be using the wrong term) generally from really hard acceleration runs

You are using the correct word. It is the fork on the 1-2 gear synchronizer. Im not a mechanic but I am an engineer.



About 3:15 they are explained.

 

[What if...?]

Whoa, wait a second...we allow "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles"...which is not the same as a regular car on the freeway.
NEV's are restricted to city streets and 25 mph.

But it's true they offer scant protection against anything...you ARE IN a golf cart.

I've got a little.electric.motorcycle. Like a Grom.

Class two. No freeway.

Having toyed with this for a while we need some new vehicle classes to cover new tech. There are several small electric "motorcycles" on the world market. But they are too fast to be "electric bicycles" and would be ruined by trying to make them fit M2.

And it sounds like we need one for small electric cars.

All the light two wheelers top out at about 45. Combination of weight power battery size and braking. But if legalized properly they would fill a empty niche. Parked like bicycles. Could be taken on transit where bicycles can. And is fast enough to move with traffic. Too fast for the "bicycle space" on the road. Trust me. Worse than motorcycles, as a bicycle sized vehicle not pedalling shouldn't be able to go over 15mph or so and car doors open, people pull out in front of you.

Anyway, that's my soapbox for the day.

 

[Dayton3]

I agree with a lot of that article's criticisms of Tesla. Their cars are a total scam.

Were they the ones that caught on fire now and then when they first came out.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Were they the ones that caught on fire now and then when they first came out.

Naw that was Chevy lmao.

 

[Geoist]

I don't like Tesla because I find the fans complete adoration of Musk really odd.
They see him like a techy Jesus and even his most oddball and failed technologies are treated like relics.

I love trains but Hyperloop is not going to work and Musk wasn't even the first to think of the idea it's a very old concept he just put his name on it.

You ever watch Adam Something on YouTube?

 

[Court Jester]

I agree with a lot of that article's criticisms of Tesla. Their cars are a total scam.

I was talking to a firefighter friend of mine, and he told me that when they respond to a car fire, they really have their hands full when it is a Tesla as compared to a gas vehicle. He said they can knock down a gasoline car on fire in a just a few short minutes, even a car that is fully involved in flames. But I guess these lithium batteries have a chemical reaction when the elements are burning which creates a "thermal runaway" situation where the release of energy as it burns creates more energy and get hotter and hotter. He said sometimes it takes 30-45 minutes to knock down a Tesla fire. iThe process involves many thousands of gallons to cool the battery, and then even when the fire is out, a longer waiting period to be certain the battery is fully cooled. He said sometimes a Telsla reignirtes while being towed away. He compared it to putting out a burning jet aircraft. But foam CANNOT be used on a Telsa battery. He said they have to jack up the car and apply water to the battery from below for as long as it takes to cool the battery.

He also said that anyone is CRAZY to park an electric/battery car in their garage, especially a garage attached to a house. Electric vehicles are 10 times more likely to catch fire than gas vehicles.

 

[jotathought]

I was talking to a firefighter friend of mine, and he told me that when they respond to a car fire, they really have their hands full when it is a Tesla as compared to a gas vehicle. He said they can knock down a gasoline car on fire in a just a few short minutes, even a car that is fully involved in flames. But I guess these lithium batteries have a chemical reaction when the elements are burning which creates a "thermal runaway" situation where the release of energy as it burns creates more energy and get hotter and hotter. He said sometimes it takes 30-45 minutes to knock down a Tesla fire. iThe process involves many thousands of gallons to cool the battery, and then even when the fire is out, a longer waiting period to be certain the battery is fully cooled. He said sometimes a Telsla reignirtes while being towed away. He compared it to putting out a burning jet aircraft. But foam CANNOT be used on a Telsa battery. He said they have to jack up the car and apply water to the battery from below for as long as it takes to cool the battery.

He also said that anyone is CRAZY to park an electric/battery car in their garage, especially a garage attached to a house. Electric vehicles are 10 times more likely to catch fire than gas vehicles.

Interesting .. I do not own an electric vehicle, much less a Tesla (I do own some of their stock though ), and I haven't done the research on the negative outcomes of electric vehicles. Has your firefighter friend indicated how often this type of scenario occurs? Is it rare or an everyday thing?

 

[Court Jester]

Interesting .. I do not own an electric vehicle, much less a Tesla (I do own some of their stock though ), and I haven't done the research on the negative outcomes of electric vehicles. Has your firefighter friend indicated how often this type of scenario occurs? Is it rare or an everyday thing?

It is certainly not a daily thing, but something they have had to alter their training and responses for. I live in SoCal and more and more electric cars are on the road all the time. Spontaneous car fires are not as common as fires from collisions, but they seem to be more common with electric cars which may have had their batteries damaged, improperly installed, or more likely improperly worked on by unqualified mechanics. Electric battery repairs/replacement are expensive, cutting corners is not recommended.

Gasoline cars in poor repair with leaking oil and hoses are still the ones which catch on fire the most, but a burning electric car can happen from an accident or just having what appears to be a normal car, but the battery was damaged at some point.

Check out this video:

 

[phoenix2020]

Fires need fuel. Oxide battery chemistries liberate oxygen during the combustion reaction that sustains the burning. To some degree, firefighters cannot put out a battery fire. I have lit off cells submersed within ice baths and they continue to burn.

While current generations of EVs use nickel cobalt oxide chemistries, there is a trend toward LFP (lithium iron phosphate) whose electrodes have no oxygen. Therefore while there is still enough energy to cause the liquid electrolyte to burn, there is no liberated oxygen and the reaction is far less intense as a result. I expect LFP to address most of the fire risk.

That said, statistically, EVs are less likely to have a fire issue than ICE vehicles.

 

[soap box]

This is like one of those articles that after I read it, I think, "Are you libertarian or just stupid?". I have ridden in one of the electric cars the article referrers to in China. They are slow, they are dangerous as they lack most safety features, and they also lack a/c. They sell in a country where it is upgrade from a bicycle and cities are very dense, thus driving distances are short. Given their size, they are comfortable for 1 person and possibly 2 if the other is a small child. One of times I was in one, we had 5 in it, which to see one of them in person you would think would be physically impossible and was incredibly uncomfortable for even a short distance.

The point being, we don't have those cars here because people would not buy one. The fact that there are regulatory hurdles to such a vehicle is irrelevant here because people would not buy them anyway. Even with our regulatory environment, you could easily build basic, inexpensive vehicles for our market, the problem is that people don't buy them.

I rode in this vehicle with 5 others, seriously.

Reminds me of how the YUGO flopped. No one wants a car that's going to get run over by a tonka truck.