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NJ Gay Marriage Referendum

JCHSALEM

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Okay. So I live in New Jersey. I am pro gay marriage. I am trying to decide whether to support a veto override of Christie's veto, or support a referendum. I need you all to argue either for referendum or veto override and provide your reasons. Sort of like if I was the Supreme Court and you all were lawyers. Thanks.
 

TiredOfLife

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Okay. So I live in New Jersey. I am pro gay marriage. I am trying to decide whether to support a veto override of Christie's veto, or support a referendum. I need you all to argue either for referendum or veto override and provide your reasons. Sort of like if I was the Supreme Court and you all were lawyers. Thanks.
All Men Are Created Equal. That should solve your quandary.
 

Hatuey

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This isn't the right subforum for this but I'll answer anyways.

As of right now, the best option is a veto override. "We the people" are absolutely terrible when it comes to voting on the rights of others just ask women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, the disabled, former inmates, people with terminal illnesses, children. If I were in NJ, I'd go the legislative way.

Again: Historically - we the people - have almost never afforded others rights if we don't have to by law.
 

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Okay. So I live in New Jersey. I am pro gay marriage. I am trying to decide whether to support a veto override of Christie's veto, or support a referendum. I need you all to argue either for referendum or veto override and provide your reasons. Sort of like if I was the Supreme Court and you all were lawyers. Thanks.

Support the referendum marriage is a state power it should be defined by the states.
 

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This isn't the right subforum for this but I'll answer anyways.

As of right now, the best option is a veto override. "We the people" are absolutely terrible when it comes to voting on the rights of others just ask women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, the disabled, former inmates, people with terminal illnesses, children. If I were in NJ, I'd go the legislative way.

Again: Historically - we the people - have almost never afforded others rights if we don't have to by law.

I don't really see the veto override as likely right now in New Jersey considering the partisan makeup of the Senate and the Assembly. With Maine, Maryland, and Washington's vote last year, I think a referendum would have a better chance.
 

JCHSALEM

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This isn't the right subforum for this but I'll answer anyways.

As of right now, the best option is a veto override. "We the people" are absolutely terrible when it comes to voting on the rights of others just ask women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, the disabled, former inmates, people with terminal illnesses, children. If I were in NJ, I'd go the legislative way.

Again: Historically - we the people - have almost never afforded others rights if we don't have to by law.

Devil's advocate:
But a referendum provides a constitutional amendment. And 60something percent of the population in NJ is pro-gay marriage. And let's not forget that there needs to be Republican support for the override. However, Republican readily support a referendum. Do you think I can convince my representatives (all republican) to support the override (they might be pro-gay marriage but afraid to vote against Christie)?
 

Hatuey

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I don't really see the veto override as likely right now in New Jersey considering the partisan makeup of the Senate and the Assembly. With Maine, Maryland, and Washington's vote last year, I think a referendum would have a better chance.

I agree, however - I find it to be a much better option than a referendum. Then again, I'm saying that without looking at the population's general support for gay marriage. Even if it were to be way above 50%, I'm extremely skeptical of giving voters a say on whether others should be allowed to enter into a contract.
 

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Okay. So I live in New Jersey. I am pro gay marriage. I am trying to decide whether to support a veto override of Christie's veto, or support a referendum. I need you all to argue either for referendum or veto override and provide your reasons. Sort of like if I was the Supreme Court and you all were lawyers. Thanks.

Neither.
You should support the government only recognizing the legal bonding of any two individuals, whether they be man to woman, man to man or woman to woman, as civil unions.
Thus affording all parties a truly equal status.
Furthermore, any two individuals that enjoy a tax break under civil unions should only be allowed one vote in elections as a united partnership.

BTW, I live in New Jersey also.
The good part. Not the part where Jersey Shore was made.
 

JCHSALEM

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This entire issue baffles me. Part of me supports the referendum because it will be passed, but the other part of me supports the override because a referendum to determine the rights of someone else is too majoritarian for me.
 

JCHSALEM

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Neither.
You should support the government only recognizing the legal bonding of any two individuals, whether they be man to woman, man to man or woman to woman, as civil unions.
Thus affording all parties a truly equal status.
Furthermore, any two individuals that enjoy a tax break under civil unions should only be allowed one vote in elections as a united partnership.

BTW, I live in New Jersey also.
The good part. Not the part where Jersey Shore was made.

Yeah, the part about all legal unions brings civil unions is my idealistic idea, but in the meantime, I will support calling it marriage.

And what part? I am from Somerset County.
 

Hatuey

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Devil's advocate:
But a referendum provides a constitutional amendment. And 60something percent of the population in NJ is pro-gay marriage. And let's not forget that there needs to be Republican support for the override. However, Republican readily support a referendum. Do you think I can convince my representatives (all republican) to support the override (they might be pro-gay marriage but afraid to vote against Christie)?

A constitutional amendment means little to me as long as marriage is a benefit allowed to gays. However, as far Christie goes, this is a lose-lose on popularity with both sides.

If he has presidential aspirations for 2016, being the governor who stood in the way of gay marriage is going to hurt him a little bit.
If he doesn't stand in the way, Republicans will call him a RINO.
If it goes to referendum and it passes, he'll be crucified by opponents for 5-10 years.
If it doesn't go to referendum and there is a veto override, he'll take blame for looking impotent.

------ Christie is in a tough position for sure but taking a referendum on this matter may backfire on Democrats quite badly.

Worst case scenario: It goes to referendum. It doesn't pass and Christie becomes the new darling of the social conservative moment.
 

JCHSALEM

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So I guess I will support the voter override but be willing to fall back on the referendum. Who wants to hear my plan?
 

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I agree, however - I find it to be a much better option than a referendum. Then again, I'm saying that without looking at the population's general support for gay marriage. Even if it were to be way above 50%, I'm extremely skeptical of giving voters a say on whether others should be allowed to enter into a contract.

I'd prefer it be done legislatively as well, I just see the referendum offering better odds of success.
 

JCHSALEM

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A constitutional amendment means little to me as long as marriage is a benefit allowed to gays. However, as far Christie goes, this is a lose-lose on popularity with both sides.

If he has presidential aspirations for 2016, being the governor who stood in the way of gay marriage is going to hurt him a little bit.
If he doesn't stand in the way, Republicans will call him a RINO.
If it goes to referendum and it passes, he'll be crucified by opponents for 5-10 years.
If it doesn't go to referendum and there is a veto override, he'll take blame for looking impotent.

------ Christie is in a tough position for sure but taking a referendum on this matter may backfire on Democrats quite badly.

Worst case scenario: It goes to referendum. It doesn't pass and Christie becomes the new darling of the social conservative moment.

What's a RINO?

Personally, I like Christie and think he would be a good president. And I am NOT CONSERVATIVE whatsoever. He is really pro gay rights. He essentially wants civil unions to be the same as marriage which is good enough for me. And he's not as conservative as he says he is. Nobody is.

This decision sucks for Christie either way.
 

TiredOfLife

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keymanjim

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Yeah, the part about all legal unions brings civil unions is my idealistic idea, but in the meantime, I will support calling it marriage.

And what part? I am from Somerset County.

Camden County. But, far away from Camden.

I've always felt that the term "marriage" should be reserved for a religious ceremony. The bonding of two individuals in the eyes of their creator. But, even if they were to become one in eyes of their church (mosque, temple, etc) they should still go through the process of having their bonding legally recognized through the civil union process.
 

TiredOfLife

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Camden County. But, far away from Camden.

I've always felt that the term "marriage" should be reserved for a religious ceremony. The bonding of two individuals in the eyes of their creator. But, even if they were to become one in eyes of their church (mosque, temple, etc) they should still go through the process of having their bonding legally recognized through the civil union process.
Maybe in the next world. Let's just deal with what we have eh?
 

Hatuey

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What's a RINO?

Personally, I like Christie and think he would be a good president. And I am NOT CONSERVATIVE whatsoever. He is really pro gay rights. He essentially wants civil unions to be the same as marriage which is good enough for me. And he's not as conservative as he says he is. Nobody is.

This decision sucks for Christie either way.

I don't doubt he'd be a good president. I'm sure he's pro-gay rights. He's just being a real dick about this particular issue. He could ask the legislature to draft some sort of amendment to completely redefine NJ civil union laws. However, I suspect he's doing this to endear himself with the social right.

A RINO is a Republican In Name Only.
 

JCHSALEM

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camden county. But, far away from camden.

I've always felt that the term "marriage" should be reserved for a religious ceremony. The bonding of two individuals in the eyes of their creator. But, even if they were to become one in eyes of their church (mosque, temple, etc) they should still go through the process of having their bonding legally recognized through the civil union process.


thank you finally someone understands
 

JCHSALEM

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I don't doubt he'd be a good president. I'm sure he's pro-gay rights. He's just being a real dick about this particular issue. He could ask the legislature to draft some sort of amendment to completely redefine NJ civil union laws. However, I suspect he's doing this to endear himself with the social right.

A RINO is a Republican In Name Only.

I just hate how people put politics over policy.
 

polisciguy

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Okay. So I live in New Jersey. I am pro gay marriage. I am trying to decide whether to support a veto override of Christie's veto, or support a referendum. I need you all to argue either for referendum or veto override and provide your reasons. Sort of like if I was the Supreme Court and you all were lawyers. Thanks.

I would take into account factors (of which I am not aware) such as the the people of New Jersey and their overall support of same-sex marriage (which, I'm speculating, is a lot) and the makeup of the state Congress; how likely is a veto override?

Personally, I like referendums. Takes the power out of the government's hand and gives it to the people, directly.
 

polisciguy

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I just hate how people put politics over policy.

I can understand that, most definitely. I'm sure Christie is in support of same-sex marriage, but he has to play the political game to stay relevant in the mainstream now, at least if he has national ambitions. It's unfortunate he has to do that, but I believe Governor Christie, from what I have seen, to be a man of great character.
 
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