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NIST's Fraudulent Report on the Collapse of WTC7 on 9/11 [W:2152,2510]

Good luck, you're not responding to anyone genuine.

Ya, I know, I made a reply, and as soon as I hit send I realized that I had made an error, but noticed something more significant, but I was just walking out the door for a time, so I just edited it out...
 
Like I said, you still don't get it. There is nothing new here. No demonstrated relevance and no evidence anything has changed. Bob, who introduced this new information :roll: has not made any specific claim using this information, therefore there is nothing to discuss.

The null hypothesis remains:



Should Bob, or anyone else ever actually figure out how any of this would change the fundamental conclusions of the NIST report they are welcome to post that data for review. So far, all anyone has done is assume things would change. I know several actual engineers who have reviewed the NIST report AND the allegations contained within this thread and none are impressed with the case being made by the woo spewing crowd.

The entire effort to discredit NIST is, as it has been pointed out frequently, a complete waste of time at any rate. CT's and Bob in particular don't get that or why and probably never will. That reality I suppose can not be helped.

Ok, this rebuttal is completely illogical... They are trying to hold multiple mutually exclusive beliefs simultaneously and be pushing them all as though there's no problem.

On one hand they admit to not considering horizontal elements, and then use the horizontal elements as part of a later discussion... And even then, the models generated do not reflect reality beyond that it was the same building....
 
Ok, this rebuttal is completely illogical... They are trying to hold multiple mutually exclusive beliefs simultaneously and be pushing them all as though there's no problem.

On one hand they admit to not considering horizontal elements, and then use the horizontal elements as part of a later discussion... And even then, the models generated do not reflect reality beyond that it was the same building....

You need to do a whole lot better than that. Simplifying models is routine. No one has demonstrated this particular set of simplifications effected the outcome of the model. There is a claim that it does, but no evidence.

As for the models themselves, they do not and could not possibly exactly mimic what happened to 7 World Trade Center, at least not if you want the results sometime in the next century. It was never intended the models exactly mimic what happened and only conspiracy nutters who have no concept of structural engineering or modelling seem to have an expectation they should.

So again, you need to do a lot harder. Demonstrate relevance, then there is something to discuss.

But in the end, no matter what NIST said or did 7 World Trade Center still collapsed due to fire. No competing hypothesis exists making this whole discussion utterly redundant if Truthers are attempting to prove something other than fire brought 7 down.
 
You need to do a whole lot better than that.

So do you, no one's buying your BS except those who already ate it.

Simplifying models is routine.

And in some cases, so is manipulating them to achieve a predetermined result.

No one has demonstrated this particular set of simplifications effected the outcome of the model. There is a claim that it does, but no evidence.

This is wholly false, see the links to the videos in post #1 in this thread that clearly outline the impossibility of NIST's theory in vivid detail. But you knew that. What no one has demonstrated is that the inclusion of the correct data yields the same result as the "simplifications" (if you can call them that). But please feel free to try to demonstrate otherwise or alternatively, provide a link to a valid model that demonstrates it does yield the same result given the inclusion of the ALL the correct data.

As for the models themselves, they do not and could not possibly exactly mimic what happened to 7 World Trade Center, at least not if you want the results sometime in the next century.

Neither do they come close as evidenced by NIST's computer animations. In fact, NIST's computer animations readily and visually contradict NIST's claims.

But in the end, no matter what NIST said or did 7 World Trade Center still collapsed due to fire.

Since no one has proven that, it's still only your conjecture, not fact.
 
You need to do a whole lot better than that. Simplifying models is routine. No one has demonstrated this particular set of simplifications effected the outcome of the model. There is a claim that it does, but no evidence.

No, sir, it's you that needs to do a whole lot better.

The evidence that the collapse model was oversimplified is in the result...

http://youtu.be/IhiX5ebieOI


As for the models themselves, they do not and could not possibly exactly mimic what happened to 7 World Trade Center,

Exactly, because the collapse did not occur due to fire.

As for the rest, no, it wouldn't have to be an EXACT model, but if the model looks NOTHING like reality, there is a reason... Because it doesn't have any basis in reality,

So again, you need to do a lot harder. Demonstrate relevance, then there is something to discuss.

But in the end, no matter what NIST said or did 7 World Trade Center still collapsed due to fire. No competing hypothesis exists making this whole discussion utterly redundant if Truthers are attempting to prove something other than fire brought 7 down.

Oh, so what technical analysis have you performed that simultaneously defies NIST yet resembles reality and assumes fire induced collapse damage.

Oh, no, you just take NIST at their word, and require that a similarly complex model be shown to prove that it was something other than fire... Which is a bald faced lie, you know damn well that if you showed a model of collapse from demolition, would just come back with "that's impossible because someone would have seen it and talked about it." (Or some variation)
 
No, sir, it's you that needs to do a whole lot better.

The evidence that the collapse model was oversimplified is in the result...

There is no disagreement the model was simplified. That is routine when conducting such models. What has not been demonstrated is that the omitted details are critical components whose deletion effected the outcome of the models. Again, not that we care because in the end it matters not what NIST says. If you want to prove the collapse was due to some cause other than fire you should prove that, not disprove NIST. Disproving NIST does absolutely nothing to prove MHI in 7 World Trade Center. Truthers have wasted 8 years trying and failing to disprove NIST instead of doing what they should be doing.

There's a reason for this. I wonder if you can guess what that reason is?
 
There is no disagreement the model was simplified. That is routine when conducting such models. What has not been demonstrated is that the omitted details are critical components whose deletion effected the outcome of the models. Again, not that we care because in the end it matters not what NIST says. If you want to prove the collapse was due to some cause other than fire you should prove that, not disprove NIST. Disproving NIST does absolutely nothing to prove MHI in 7 World Trade Center. Truthers have wasted 8 years trying and failing to disprove NIST instead of doing what they should be doing.

There's a reason for this. I wonder if you can guess what that reason is?

First, repeating yourself does not augment your argument...

Second, there are simplifications you can make that will not change anything... But, instead what we saw was a model that does not even reflect reality.

Third, you paid Into that investigation, and we aren't talking Monopoly money, millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man hours were put into the investigation, which represents "the best" that could be offered.

Disproving NIST proves one of three things :
1- that they are not competent to perform the investigation they were paid for... Scratch this one out because they are experts among experts.

2- that they oversimplified the model. Which brings us back to 1, is it incompetence, or,

3- that they intentionally made the model as best they could to fit the conclusions that were desired.

Also, by disproving NIST, then there is NO EXPLANATION provided for the collapse... And if you show them wrong even on wtc7 alone that calls into question everything they did concerning wtc 1 and 2.

Oh, and in the scientific field, that also puts at risk their entire professional reputations... Oh, and the organization, NIST, of they don't expelled those bad apples calls into question the organizations integrity as a whole.

See, with engineers, anything they put their name on, if it's shown to be shoddy work and that they should have known better... They don't just have their reputations on the line, they can be made liable.
 
First, repeating yourself does not augment your argument...

But apparently is necessary regardless as you insist on wasting everyone's time with things that will get you nowhere.

Second, there are simplifications you can make that will not change anything... But, instead what we saw was a model that does not even reflect reality.

Great. Prove it.

Third, you paid Into that investigation, and we aren't talking Monopoly money, millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man hours were put into the investigation, which represents "the best" that could be offered.

You are right. And it was the best that could be done given the limited evidence and information available. No new investigation could do any better.

Disproving NIST proves one of three things :
1- that they are not competent to perform the investigation they were paid for... Scratch this one out because they are experts among experts.

2- that they oversimplified the model. Which brings us back to 1, is it incompetence, or,

3- that they intentionally made the model as best they could to fit the conclusions that were desired.

No. Falsifying NIST just shows they were wrong about something they labeled a Probable Collapse Sequence.

Also, by disproving NIST, then there is NO EXPLANATION provided for the collapse...

No. It just means the precise point of failure is uncertain, but then, that is where we are at already since all NIST have offerred is a probable collapse scenario. It was known even before 7 fell that its demise was due to fire and the meter on that has not budged in 13 years. All NIST did was identify the probable failure point.

Unless of course you have devised some magic which somehow concludes NIST was wrong about girder walk-off, thus it must have been 2 tons of high explosives that produce no noise, no blast, no shockwave, no lethal high velocity fragments, produce no blast damage and leave no trace evidence.

And if you show them wrong even on wtc7 alone that calls into question everything they did concerning wtc 1 and 2.

Seperate case. The analysis for the Twins stands or falls (excuse the pun) on its own merits. Still not one step closer to establishing MHI by proving NIST was wrong about some detail which they only identified as probable.

Again, falsifying NIST does nothing more than falsify NIST. You are not one step closer to establishing MHI. If you want to make a case for MHI you should stop wasting time and effort, ignore NIST and make a case for MHI which can stand on its own merits regardless of anything NIST did.
 
But apparently is necessary regardless as you insist on wasting everyone's time with things that will get you nowhere.

I know, you've made it clear that event NIST was wrong, you're not changing your position..



Great. Prove it.

I already have... Use your friggin eyes.

http://youtu.be/IhiX5ebieOI


You are right. And it was the best that could be done given the limited evidence and information available. No new investigation could do any better.

Until they decide to use the scientific method rather than determining the conclusion and finding the evidence to fit, probably,


No. Falsifying NIST just shows they were wrong about something they labeled a Probable Collapse Sequence.

In the fools world... Sure.

However, the why of that level of error leads to one of those conclusions.


No. It just means the precise point of failure is uncertain, but then, that is where we are at already since all NIST have offerred is a probable collapse scenario. It was known even before 7 fell that its demise was due to fire and the meter on that has not budged in 13 years. All NIST did was identify the probable failure point.

Unless of course you have devised some magic which somehow concludes NIST was wrong about girder walk-off, thus it must have been 2 tons of high explosives that produce no noise, no blast, no shockwave, no lethal high velocity fragments, produce no blast damage and leave no trace evidence.

Yes AND THEIR PROBABLE FAILURE POINT LED TO A COLLAPSE MODEL THAT IN NO WAY REFLECTS REALITY!!

What brings you to the conclusion of 2 tons of high explosive?





Seperate case. The analysis for the Twins stands or falls (excuse the pun) on its own merits. Still not one step closer to establishing MHI by proving NIST was wrong about some detail which they only identified as probable.

Again, falsifying NIST does nothing more than falsify NIST. You are not one step closer to establishing MHI. If you want to make a case for MHI you should stop wasting time and effort, ignore NIST and make a case for MHI which can stand on its own merits regardless of anything NIST did.

Whatever you say man... Keep living in delusion.

Tell me any other scientific discipline that allows this level of errors?
 
Lol.. So does that mean you are going to address that post? I don't mean the source, I mean the actual facts raised in that article?

No? Ok, well, I guess you are repeating the same mantra.

Are you going to explain how you "know" none of the eyewitnesses to the Pentagon crash could not have actually seen the impact?
No? Oh, well I guess you are proving the mantra.

Seriously I didn't even pay any attention to the post in contention (I believe it is some nonsense about NIST being fraudulent). However whenever push comes to shove truthers either refuse to back up their nonsense or if they do they get destroyed with facts and evidence to prove their BS is wrong.
Examples.
No plane at the Pentagon (something you have already admitted happened yet seem to love arguing against)
No plane at Shanksville, No planes at WTC, Explosives at WTC, ground effect BS, Payne Stewarts plane being intercepted in 21 mins, Vigilant Guardian, mini-nukes etc etc etc.
All examples of things truthers have either refused to try and actually back up or have tried and ended up getting proven to be totally wrong on.
 
He's admitted to getting his information from Alex Jones and believing in a vast worldwide secret group that orchestrates almost everything that happens on the planet...there's not much to say.
 
I know, you've made it clear that event NIST was wrong, you're not changing your position..

I already have... Use your friggin eyes.

Until they decide to use the scientific method rather than determining the conclusion and finding the evidence to fit, probably,

In the fools world... Sure.

However, the why of that level of error leads to one of those conclusions.

Yes AND THEIR PROBABLE FAILURE POINT LED TO A COLLAPSE MODEL THAT IN NO WAY REFLECTS REALITY!!

What brings you to the conclusion of 2 tons of high explosive?

Whatever you say man... Keep living in delusion.

Tell me any other scientific discipline that allows this level of errors?

My position does not now and never has hinged on anything NIST says. I happen to think they are probably wrong about specific details of collapse initiation. Doesn't change the fact they are fundamentally correct about fire being the proximate cause of collapse. That 7 World Trade Center had become dangerously unstable due to fire was known hours before she fell so that when she fell no one was particularly surprised. The building itself is completely unimportant to understanding what happened on that day, the damage being incidental. The only reason it comes up anymore is because of the utter failure of conspiracy theorists to convince with their ridiculous tales of CD in the Twin Towers, missiles at the Pentagon and shoot-downs or fake planes in Shanksville. The collapse of 7 World Trade Center is the Alamo of the 9/11 Truth Movement and they have now stuck pretty much all their eggs in that basket, counting on public ignorance of this unimportant and uninteresting building in which no one was killed or injured to keep their pathetic movement and its fundraising efforts alive.

PS

You can stop linking to that video. As mentioned earlier it is certainly impractical, and probably impossible to create a model that exactly duplicates what happened to 7 World Trade Center - that can demonstrate what every piece of the structure was doing at each moment throughout the event. Only someone truly ignorant of engineering could expect that. In the case of your video the model being compared to the actual collapse was intended to demonstrate what would happen to the structure with Col. 79 removed. It was in no way intended to replicate exactly what happened to the building. So I am not quite sure what you think you are proving here - that a model demonstrating a hypothetical situation inside the structure does not exactly duplicate what the exterior of the structure looked like in a real event? Great. Congratulations. I will grant you that one.

So now that you have proven that a model not designed to look exactly like what happened does not look exactly what happened what are you going to do next?
 
My position does not now and never has hinged on anything NIST says.

I call bs.

If NIST said it was explosives would you still claim fire damage?


I happen to think they are probably wrong about specific details of collapse initiation. Doesn't change the fact they are fundamentally correct about fire being the proximate cause of collapse.

Ok, but there's a difference between specific details... I don't care if it's the difference between column x buckling vs column y next to it buckling first... that type of error would not significantly alter the findings.

That's not what we are talking about... we are talking about errors that are impossibly wrong. That make flagrantly false assumptions... like the undeclecared claim that ALL fireproofing elements were removed, and the undeclared assumption that once the fuel was burned in an area, and the flame has spread, that the metal would not begin to cool, and so on...

Or with building 7, how sporadic but intense fires on a couple floors caused the entire structure of 8 floors to disintegrate...


That 7 World Trade Center had become dangerously unstable due to fire was known hours before she fell so that when she fell no one was particularly surprised.

sigh... There was damage to the building, yes... fires will make the concrete itself unstable and would need to be demolished... that does not make a building collapse ... especially not THE WAY it collapsed.

The building itself is completely unimportant to understanding what happened on that day, the damage being incidental. The only reason it comes up anymore is because of the utter failure of conspiracy theorists to convince with their ridiculous tales of CD in the Twin Towers, missiles at the Pentagon and shoot-downs or fake planes in Shanksville. The collapse of 7 World Trade Center is the Alamo of the 9/11 Truth Movement and they have now stuck pretty much all their eggs in that basket, counting on public ignorance of this unimportant and uninteresting building in which no one was killed or injured to keep their pathetic movement and its fundraising efforts alive.

LMAO... you are scared of building 7 because you KNOW that is the smoking gun of 911.

The building was unremarkable, but not unimportant, the emergency response center was in there plus a laundry list of other government agencies.



PS

You can stop linking to that video. As mentioned earlier it is certainly impractical, and probably impossible to create a model that exactly duplicates what happened to 7 World Trade Center - that can demonstrate what every piece of the structure was doing at each moment throughout the event. Only someone truly ignorant of engineering could expect that. In the case of your video the model being compared to the actual collapse was intended to demonstrate what would happen to the structure with Col. 79 removed. It was in no way intended to replicate exactly what happened to the building. So I am not quite sure what you think you are proving here - that a model demonstrating a hypothetical situation inside the structure does not exactly duplicate what the exterior of the structure looked like in a real event? Great. Congratulations. I will grant you that one.

So now that you have proven that a model not designed to look exactly like what happened does not look exactly what happened what are you going to do next?

Are you joking ?

they made two partial models... and it showed accurately how the collapse would start if it was fire.

Based on the models, there's no reason for the other half of the building to collapse.

You are so desperate to maintain your delusions that I bet, for now, you actually believe this nonsense.
 
You are so desperate to maintain your delusions that I bet, for now, you actually believe this nonsense.

No he doesn't, he's too intelligent to believe his own repetitive garbage that he posts 24/7. It's obvious he has some sort of agenda. Unfortunately, he's not intelligent enough to understand that he's not convincing anyone other than the "we" gang of posters in this forum. Or maybe he is but he persists anyway because that's his job.
 
I call bs.

If NIST said it was explosives would you still claim fire damage?

.


IF the NIST reports stated explosives caused the collapse of the WTC7. I would accept it. Then I would expect other LE to have investigated who did the crime. But that is all fiction.

There are many reasons I do not accept the explanation that explosives were used. Mostly its because no clear conclise explanation has been brought forward that is supported by evidence.


So the question is, IF any new investigation states WTC7 collapsed due to a fire induced collapse, Will you accept it? and "if" you do, then why the heartburn over the orginal findings of a fire induced collapse?

The problem with playing the "what if game" you seem to be doing is. What if a report came out and stated you were involved in the destruction of WTC7, would you accept it?:mrgreen:

Speculation does not necessarly lead to the truth.
 
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I call bs.

If NIST said it was explosives would you still claim fire damage? (1)

Ok, but there's a difference between specific details... I don't care if it's the difference between column x buckling vs column y next to it buckling first... that type of error would not significantly alter the findings.

That's not what we are talking about... we are talking about errors that are impossibly wrong. That make flagrantly false assumptions... like the undeclecared claim that ALL fireproofing elements were removed, and the undeclared assumption that once the fuel was burned in an area, and the flame has spread, that the metal would not begin to cool, and so on... (2)

Or with building 7, how sporadic but intense fires on a couple floors caused the entire structure of 8 floors to disintegrate... (3)


sigh... There was damage to the building, yes... fires will make the concrete itself unstable and would need to be demolished... that does not make a building collapse ... especially not THE WAY it collapsed. (4)

LMAO... you are scared of building 7 because you KNOW that is the smoking gun of 911. (5)

The building was unremarkable, but not unimportant, the emergency response center was in there plus a laundry list of other government agencies. (6)


Are you joking ?

they made two partial models... and it showed accurately how the collapse would start if it was fire.

Based on the models, there's no reason for the other half of the building to collapse.

You are so desperate to maintain your delusions that I bet, for now, you actually believe this nonsense.(7)

Bman....

(1) NIST wouldn't claim explosives because explosives didn't exist in ANY of the WTC buildings.

(2) Fires led to the collapse. If you have EVIDENCE anything else did why won't you present it?

(3) Where did ANYONE claim that fires caused "the entire structure of 8 floors to disintegrate" Did NIST claim the entire structure of 8 floors disintegrated? Did Mark claim the entire structure of 8 floors disintegrated?

(4) Concrete???? We are talking about a steel framed building. You knew that right? And the firefighters saw signs of instability long before collapse.

(5) A smoking gun.... Right. A dud is more apt description.

(6) And this means what exactly? Why did they have to demolish a building that was already gutted and unusable for it's intended purpose. A building already structurally unstable. A building firefighters feared.

(7) If there is no reason (according to you) for the other half of the building to collapse why do the experts and professionals associated with the NIST, the ASCE and the CTBUH not notice? Are the leaders of the industry deluded? Oh, and WHAT delusions?
 
No he doesn't, he's too intelligent to believe his own repetitive garbage that he posts 24/7. It's obvious he has some sort of agenda. Unfortunately, he's not intelligent enough to understand that he's not convincing anyone other than the "we" gang of posters in this forum. Or maybe he is but he persists anyway because that's his job.

Unable to refute the facts, Bob resorts to insults.
 
I call bs.

If NIST said it was explosives would you still claim fire damage?

To borrow from Oz; NIST could claim 7 fell under the weight of Santa's Custard and I would still say it was fire because it was fire. What NIST says does not in any way change what happened. Fire is now and always has been the only plausible hypothesis. The only real disagreement is in the details - what failed first, etc, etc, etc,...

This is why as I keep repeating it matters not one bit to falsify NIST if one's goal is to prove something other than fire brought down 7 WTC. If your goal is to make that case then make that case. If you falsify NIST you have not moved the meter one tick away from :flames:

there's a difference between specific details... I don't care if it's the difference between column x buckling vs column y next to it buckling first... that type of error would not significantly alter the findings.

I agree.

not what we are talking about... we are talking about errors that are impossibly wrong. That make flagrantly false assumptions... like the undeclecared claim that ALL fireproofing elements were removed, and the undeclared assumption that once the fuel was burned in an area, and the flame has spread, that the metal would not begin to cool, and so on...

Then demonstrate such errors/omissions actually exist instead of merely assuming they do because some non-critical details were left out of a model as is routine in the industry.

Or with building building 7, how sporadic but intense fires on a couple floors caused the entire structure of 8 floors to disintegrate...

Since that is not what happened I would not even dare to speculate,...


There was damage to the building, yes... fires will make the concrete itself unstable and would need to be demolished... that does not make a building collapse ... especially not THE WAY it collapsed.

What concrete?

you are scared of building 7 because you KNOW that is the smoking gun of 911.

The building was unremarkable, but not unimportant, the emergency response center was in there plus a laundry list of other government agencies.

Offices of a handful of local and federal agencies occupied part of one floor. Big whoopty doo. One needs to go several layers deeper than Underpants Gnome level of logic to explain why that matters.

Are you joking ?

they made two partial models... and it showed accurately how the collapse would start if it was fire.

Based on the models, there's no reason for the other half of the building to collapse.

You are so desperate to maintain your delusions that I bet, for now, you actually believe this nonsense.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about here. The 4th and final model was done not to assess the effect of fire but to assess the effect of removing Column 79. What that model showed was the EPH roofline would kink just like it did, the EPH would then collapse - which it did, and a progression of failures would run through the load transfer region causing the global collapse of the structure from east to west just as we saw on 9/11. That the failure of Col. 79 would cause progressive global collapse was not expected and to me at least is the most significant and important part of the NIST investigation (and most overlooked by CT's). This was if you will, a design flaw of the structure but one that would have never revealed itself except under extraordinary circumstances such as those on 9/11.

So now then, if you are ready to stop NIST picking over non-critical details why don't you discuss the who/what/when/where/why and how of the inside jobby-job that you believe was 7 World Trade?
 
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IF the NIST reports stated explosives caused the collapse of the WTC7. I would accept it. Then I would expect other LE to have investigated who did the crime. But that is all fiction.

There are many reasons I do not accept the explanation that explosives were used. Mostly its because no clear conclise explanation has been brought forward that is supported by evidence.


So the question is, IF any new investigation states WTC7 collapsed due to a fire induced collapse, Will you accept it? and "if" you do, then why the heartburn over the orginal findings of a fire induced collapse?

The problem with playing the "what if game" you seem to be doing is. What if a report came out and stated you were involved in the destruction of WTC7, would you accept it?:mrgreen:

Speculation does not necessarly lead to the truth.

So, does this mean you hadn't considered just how tied you are to the NIST report? Or was it just you lying?

Now that you admit your position does in fact hinge on the investigation, are you going to accept NISTS investigation as fact and stick with the implications of that, show us the results of YOUR investigation so we can at least be talking about the same subject, or are you going to concede that you don't have a solid position, but rather some specious opinions that anything happened so long as it fits the official narrative?
 
The 4th and final model was done not to assess the effect of fire but to assess the effect of removing Column 79. What that model showed was the EPH roofline would kink just like it did, the EPH would then collapse - which it did, and a progression of failures would run through the load transfer region causing the global collapse of the structure from east to west just as we saw on 9/11. That the failure of Col. 79 would cause progressive global collapse was not expected and to me at least is the most significant and important part of the NIST investigation (and most overlooked by CT's). This was if you will, a design flaw of the structure but one that would have never revealed itself except under extraordinary circumstances such as those on 9/11.

In other words, NIST concocted a model, eliminating any inconvenient data, concocting whatever data was needed and changing other data, in order to try to create a model that might cause their model to progressively collapse, based on their preconceived idea that removing column 79 would come as close as possible to mimic a fire induced collapse and called it a "probable collapse scenario", which had nothing to do with NIST's first objective. Then NIST created an intricately detailed report, using all that carefully selected data, including their counterfeit structural diagrams, and published a report that they KNEW most people would determine is the exact scenario that they would conclude happened. They also KNEW most people would never read the report, much less go over it with a fine tooth comb. But they KNEW as long as government sanctioned that report as the OFFICIAL NARRATIVE on the collapse of WTC7, they would go along with it because it comes from authority. And they KNEW most people fall for the belief that authority = truth, rather than truth = authority. And just to make sure to cover all their bases, NIST withheld as much data as they could, even under FOIA requests, as long as they cited that releasing such data would ENDANGER PUBLIC SAFETY. And just to make sure all this was kept in the dark as much as possible, government got their puppet media to make sure never to publish anything about WTC7 (minus a couple of leaks) so that as many people as possible would remain completely ignorant about the collapse of WTC7. But as we can see recently with C-SPAN, even this tactic is not working.

The problem with all that deliberate OBFUSCATION is that it didn't work for experts and other educated intellectuals who know better, but these are in the minority and since they're not government, they're not accepted as authority by most people. And as long as the MSM and government labels these people as "conspiracy theorists", "kooks" and the like or marginalizes them as a few disgruntled malcontents, most people just accept that and will not do the research. But the problem with that is that government and the MSM have an awful track record and many people no longer accept what they're fed by the propagandists and turn to those they see as much more credible. And that's why 9/11 will NEVER GO AWAY and the number of people who want real answers is GROWING DAILY. Some of the evidence for that is shown by the EVER INCREASING number of signatories of experts at AE911, many of whom are first learning about WTC7 as well as the 100,000 plus petitioners (so far) in NYC who demand a REAL INVESTIGATION into the collapse of WTC7.
 
To borrow from Oz; NIST could claim 7 fell under the weight of Santa's Custard and I would still say it was fire because it was fire. What NIST says does not in any way change what happened. Fire is now and always has been the only plausible hypothesis. The only real disagreement is in the details - what failed first, etc, etc, etc,...

This is why as I keep repeating it matters not one bit to falsify NIST if one's goal is to prove something other than fire brought down 7 WTC. If your goal is to make that case then make that case. If you falsify NIST you have not moved the meter one tick away from :flames:

Ok, so you admit you want to have it any way so long as it fits your narrative... Thanks for admitting your biases. Not that it was any surprise.

It's not the only plausible explanation, it's the only explanation actually investigated.


I agree.



Then demonstrate such errors/omissions actually exist instead of merely assuming they do because some non-critical details were left out of a model as is routine in the industry.

Lmao... Look at the models they made, look at what really happened. Those models were made on the presumption of fire... And if fire caused failures in the structure, that's the type of collapse we would have seen... Just like the models, not like the reality as it was captured on film.


Since that is not what happened I would not even dare to speculate,...

Did you not see the videos? Oh, I guess not, a model that only reflects reality in the sense that it's the same building in question is good enough for you.

What concrete?

Don't play dumb...


Offices of a handful of local and federal agencies occupied part of one floor. Big whoopty doo. One needs to go several layers deeper than Underpants Gnome level of logic to explain why that matters.

Is this ignorance or lies?

- IRS office
- secret service
- office of emergency management
- SEC

Each had one or more floors...


I honestly don't know what you are talking about here. The 4th and final model was done not to assess the effect of fire but to assess the effect of removing Column 79. What that model showed was the EPH roofline would kink just like it did, the EPH would then collapse - which it did, and a progression of failures would run through the load transfer region causing the global collapse of the structure from east to west just as we saw on 9/11. That the failure of Col. 79 would cause progressive global collapse was not expected and to me at least is the most significant and important part of the NIST investigation (and most overlooked by CT's). This was if you will, a design flaw of the structure but one that would have never revealed itself except under extraordinary circumstances such as those on 9/11.

So now then, if you are ready to stop NIST picking over non-critical details why don't you discuss the who/what/when/where/why and how of the inside jobby-job that you believe was 7 World Trade?

Lmao... "Kink" you mean folded in on itself like a pretzel in the model.

We are not talking about a minor error here, we are talking about a model that might as well be a different building... But that's acceptable to you.

Is there a lie from government that you will not buy into?
 
You need to stop taking your queues from Bob.

Now, do you have a case to present for MHI at 7 World Trade Center or not? The accusation through innuendo thing is getting rather old and I'm not interested in chasing you down more rabbit holes.
 
You need to stop taking your queues from Bob.

Now, do you have a case to present for MHI at 7 World Trade Center or not? The accusation through innuendo thing is getting rather old and I'm not interested in chasing you down more rabbit holes.

Right... You are tired of being exposed here as FOS as they get, and so you want to move to the next topic.

Makes sense.
 
You need to stop taking your queues from Bob.

Now, do you have a case to present for MHI at 7 World Trade Center or not? The accusation through innuendo thing is getting rather old and I'm not interested in chasing you down more rabbit holes.

I am still wondering where he got the "the entire structure of 8 floors to disintegrate" silliness from. Not that he would EVER give up his "sources".
 
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